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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except he was the Alliance leader at the time. He had the legitimacy of his position both in the military and as a noble. He had the support of Dalaran, the gnomes, and the dwarves.

    And the Horde is responsible for what Garrosh, Blackhand, and Grom did while they were leading the Horde.
    Garithos wasn't the leader of the Alliance at the time. He was a warlord left in a region overrun by the scourge and an incompetent leader, idiot and racist. The gnomes were occupied with the problems in Gnomeregan and didn't support anyone at the time and Garithos was also racist towards the dwarves.

    Based on the missions in WC3 you got the impression that Garithos was leading the Alliance in Lordaeron, and Garithos himself probably believed that as did Kael'thas. However, as Blizzard stated clearly years ago that wasn't the case. He was cutt off from the chain of command and the neighboring nations didn't know he was an intolerant ass. He wasn't following Alliance orders and the certainly wasn't giving the Alliance orders.

    Grand Marshal Othmar Garithos was the only son of a baron who ruled over lands in what would later be the Eastern Plaguelands that bordered Quel'Thalas. While his father ruled from the town of Blackwood on the shores of the similarly-named lake, Garithos joined the army as a knight during the Second War, where he saw combat in Quel'Thalas defending the elves' homeland from invading orcs. While he was in Quel'Thalas, however, a small band of orcs broke off from the main invading force and burned his home town to the ground, killing all of its inhabitants in spite of the valorous defense marshaled by its lord. Othmar's family perished doing their duty, defending the homes and lives of their subjects. He blamed the elves for the loss of his town and family, believing that the elves diverted forces away from the Alliance's true goal: the defense of humanity alone. After his father's death, Garithos was awarded his title and continued his service in the armies of Lordaeron. By the time of the Scourging of Lordaeron, he had attained the rank of Grand Marshal and was the highest ranked surviving military officer in the region, promoted not necessarily due to his own abilities, but his father's reputation and title. Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos amassed a small army of volunteers and conscripted civilians, and gave them the mission that he assumed the Alliance should have always had: the preservation of humanity above all else. Despite the ad-hoc nature of his forces, other states recognized him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron's government and certainly the strongest warlord in the area. As such, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel'Thalas sent him aid, ignorant of his intolerant policies.

  2. #342
    Herald of the Titans Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    snip.
    What do you think of the theory that the Void Elves are the Sunreavers, and that as a result the Silver Covenant leaves the Alliance?

    The breadcrumb lore showing the Nightborne joining the Horde is on the Vindicaar. There is an event on the Vindicaar where Aethas Sunreaver talks about his 'attunement' to the primal forces of the universe. That MUST be there for some reason. We know that the reason the Nightborne dialogue is there is to foreshadow the entry of the Nightborne into the Horde.

    It simply makes too much sense that Aethas's 'attunement' to the primal forces of the universe will led him, and the faction of Blood Elves he leads, into experimenting with void magic and getting kicked out of Silvermoon. People have complained the Void Elves appear from nowhere, yet the start of their story could be right in front of us.

    But the wider game's story is built on faction reciprocity. A Warchief and a High King died in the same battle. Teldrassil is destroyed, and Undercity follows. If something is taken from one faction in the game, then an excuse is found to take something from the other faction of equal weight.

    And what is the corresponding group to the Sunreavers but the Silver Covenant. IF the Sunreavers ARE the Void Elves and IF the Sunreavers are exiled from the Horde, only to join the Alliance, then I would not be surprised if the Silver Covenant ends up leaving the Alliance.

    Reasons range from outright disgust and horror at the Alliance tolerating Void Elves who are now much worse than the Blood Elves ever were to the rumored upcoming death of Veressa Windrunner leaving them adrift within the Alliance. Very possibly a combination of both.

    And the practical outcome of a Silver Covenant return to Silvermoon?

    Playable Blood Elves with blue eyes once enhanced customization comes in.

    Void Elves show Blizzard has paid attention to this debate (by giving the model but not the High Elves, clearly an attempt at a compromise between both positions). The Sunreaver connection to Void Elves makes sense. And maybe even Blizzard might feel that it is time to permanently shut this debate down by removing the last uncorrupted High Elves from the Alliance forever.

    They promised Void Elf content in 7.3.5. If Aethas and the Sunreavers are the traitors, it should be confirmed by him doing something nuts in that patch. If that happens, if you are a High Elf fan, I would begin to worry about the Silver Covenant. Faction reciprocity IS a thing.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2017-11-16 at 04:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    You can play a High Elf. You just gotta roll Horde.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Which does nothing but showing how bland the complaint is in the first place. Void Elves being High Elves was nothing but wishful thinking and people jumping to conclusions "cuz Alleria is High Elf so Void Elves must be High Elves".

    Of course Void Elves were going to be Blood Elves, High Elves going for that route made no sense whatsoever. Blood Elves also have a far higher population pool from where these people could be asspulled, ultimately proving the High Elves' fundamental irrelevance.
    This is irrelevant to what my point was in that comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Every other reason to desire playable High Elves that is not strictly tied to them being Alliance is abstract as you can get, it's all about "feeling good" about playing a Thalassian Elf who bears a certain way of thinking...or not, since High Elves turning into Void Elves would have savagely shitted on everything that define High Elves' ideology to begin with.
    You will see very different reasons why people want High Elves. Some simply want to have a model of High Elves in Alliance, some want to play them because they are fans of their lore ( and I mean the lore of High Elves in Alliance). For some it's important that High Elves would look exactly like they look now, for some it's not important if they would look differently as long as they are the same High Elves. Some like what High Elves stand for and hence would be adamant their values don't change, some are more open to that and would be fine with High Elves changing (these are those who would be fine if Void Elves would come from Alliance). There are different reasons to want High Elves but no matter what the reason was, the current Void Elves don't fit any of those. So it's no surprise when High Elves fans don't accept them as substitutes. Blizzard decided to cater to them by giving them something they never asked for and never wanted. It's like people who asked for Classic servers would receive Cataclysm servers instead. Of course people will not be pleased with that. And I don't get how anyone could not understand this. And shame on Blizzard too that they couldn't understand what they were doing with that. If you want to cater to people, do what they ask for or don't do it at all.
    Last edited by Ddi; 2017-11-17 at 02:48 AM.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Garithos wasn't the leader of the Alliance at the time. He was a warlord left in a region overrun by the scourge and an incompetent leader, idiot and racist. The gnomes were occupied with the problems in Gnomeregan and didn't support anyone at the time and Garithos was also racist towards the dwarves.

    Based on the missions in WC3 you got the impression that Garithos was leading the Alliance in Lordaeron, and Garithos himself probably believed that as did Kael'thas. However, as Blizzard stated clearly years ago that wasn't the case. He was cutt off from the chain of command and the neighboring nations didn't know he was an intolerant ass. He wasn't following Alliance orders and the certainly wasn't giving the Alliance orders.
    The game and subsequent materials just calls his group Alliance. The non-canon RPG called it the New Alliance. "Recognized him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron's government..." He was the chain of command. It literally says he "was the highest ranked surviving military officer in the region." Everyone above him was dead or Scourge. He had the legitimacy of his position by his military title and his status as a noble. The remaining Alliance nations might not have known about his intolerant policies when they rallied under him, but they sure as hell still went along with it once they got there. Like Dalaran, Silvermoon's ally for over 2000 years. Not only did they give no fucks about the elves, they didn't give two shits that it was Kael'Thas who had just been on their Council of Six.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  5. #345
    I am just venting. Everyone complains about High Elves and other Elves, all I wanted was Nightborne Elf as playable, from day 1. They ignore my help from the alliance to rescue them in Suramar, and they thank me by going with the Horde. A beep disgrace, what were blizzard even thinking. To set it up this way is just beyond silly. I started to hate whole Suramar after praising it for a year.

    But I know. Void Elves. Freakin Void Elves. A race from nowhere. So they had to give the Horde something Elfy.

    And I am now Horde preparing for BfA and Nightborne. And Suramar now starts to look good when on my new Blood Elf(High Elf) Hunter.

    Nightborne and Night Elf are actually quite different (appearance). Void elves are just reskinned blood elves, or High Elves, wich they both are.

    Now, keep discussing. Its really fun to read.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2017-11-17 at 03:58 AM.
    Okay, so I am gonna trap the blu..."FOR KAZ MODAAAAN"

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The game and subsequent materials just calls his group Alliance.
    Blizzard later stated "Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos amassed a small army of volunteers and conscripted civilians" which means they changed the status of his army later on, or rather clarified it. Garithos can call his army the Alliance in game but that doesn't mean it's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The non-canon RPG called it the New Alliance.
    As you say, it's non-canon. It could have called it the new Burning Legion or stated Garithos was following Varian Wrynn's orders and it wouldn't change a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    He was the chain of command.
    If you mean he acted on his own and not under orders of anyone then yes that's true. It doesn't make the whole of humanity or even Lordaeron responsible for what he did.

    He was not the supreme commander or High King of the Alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It literally says he "was the highest ranked surviving military officer in the region." Everyone above him was dead or Scourge. He had the legitimacy of his position by his military title and his status as a noble. The remaining Alliance nations might not have known about his intolerant policies when they rallied under him, but they sure as hell still went along with it once they got there.
    Including Kael'thas and Quel'thalas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Like Dalaran, Silvermoon's ally for over 2000 years. Not only did they give no fucks about the elves, they didn't give two shits that it was Kael'Thas who had just been on their Council of Six.
    When Kael'thas and his forces were imprisoned in the Dungeons of Dalaran it had just been retaken from the scourge. It's unclear if the Kirin Tor or Council of Six was actually in command of the city. Given Garithos's style of command he would probably have kept the cityt/ruins under marshal law. Rommath blames Modera and Ansirem which is understandable from his point of view but it doesn't mean they were in a position to change the situation or didn't care. The missions in warcraft III are all from the Blood Elves point of view and explain why Kael'thas felt betrayed by the Alliance. It doesn't mean it's true.

    Garithos can certainly be blamed for his behaviour and probably parts of his "army" but as Loreology stated when asked on the subject:

    Date: 3 February 2014 Twitter post by Sean Copeland
    "@Loreology Were all the humans who followed Garithos racist? I have a hard time believing all the survivors of Lordearon were."
    "It's unfair to label a large group of people due the actions and mindsets of a few. :"


    Btw, Garithos and his army were killed on Sylvanas orders in the capital city of Lordaeron. If any are still around walking today they do so as Forsaken. However, it doesn't look like the Blood Elves hold a grudge against them.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Blizzard later stated "Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos amassed a small army of volunteers and conscripted civilians" which means they changed the status of his army later on, or rather clarified it. Garithos can call his army the Alliance in game but that doesn't mean it's true.
    Materials from after that Ask CDev call his group Alliance (UVG, Annual 2015).

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    As you say, it's non-canon. It could have called it the new Burning Legion or stated Garithos was following Varian Wrynn's orders and it wouldn't change a thing.
    That was more of a point that only non-canon RPG differentiated Garithos' group as something other than Alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    If you mean he acted on his own and not under orders of anyone then yes that's true. It doesn't make the whole of humanity or even Lordaeron responsible for what he did.

    He was not the supreme commander or High King of the Alliance.
    He was acting supreme commander of the Alliance. He had the deference of Alliance nations' militaries just like Turalyon when Lothar died. Leadership went down the chain of command to highest ranking survivor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Including Kael'thas and Quel'thalas.
    What? Once it became clear that Garithos was out to get them, they stopped doing what he said. You know, accepting help from the naga despite Garithos' orders. Busting out of prison despite being sentenced to death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    When Kael'thas and his forces were imprisoned in the Dungeons of Dalaran it had just been retaken from the scourge. It's unclear if the Kirin Tor or Council of Six was actually in command of the city. Given Garithos's style of command he would probably have kept the cityt/ruins under marshal law. Rommath blames Modera and Ansirem which is understandable from his point of view but it doesn't mean they were in a position to change the situation or didn't care. The missions in warcraft III are all from the Blood Elves point of view and explain why Kael'thas felt betrayed by the Alliance. It doesn't mean it's true.
    Kael had to fight a servant of the Kirin Tor to escape. 2 of the most powerful magi around couldn't conjure any kind of spell to help. Maybe a teleport or illusion or just a distraction. Maybe apologize at least for being unable to act? Instead, they did nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Garithos can certainly be blamed for his behaviour and probably parts of his "army" but as Loreology stated when asked on the subject:

    Date: 3 February 2014 Twitter post by Sean Copeland
    "@Loreology Were all the humans who followed Garithos racist? I have a hard time believing all the survivors of Lordearon were."
    "It's unfair to label a large group of people due the actions and mindsets of a few. :"
    That's his opinion. It's not a representation of how the story goes. All H/BElves and Highborne were persecuted for the select Highborne that joined the Legion. All of humanity was targeted by Sylvanas because of Arthas. The Alliance and Dalaran are held responsible for the betraying Silvermoon. All BElves are hated because Vereesa's cousin was racist. Alliance spies infiltrated Quel'Thalas and pushed Silvermoon into the Horde. All BElves were blamed when a couple BElf agents betrayed Dalaran. All races in the Horde were held responsible for Garrosh's leadership. Thrall was blamed for Garrosh's actions. Alliance blames Sylvanas/Horde for Broken Shore and Varian's death (the "betrayal" was even mentioned during BlizzCon's BfA panels).

    Blaming many for the actions of a few is one of the constants in Warcraft. It is even more legitimate when those "few" have the support of their factions like Garithos did. He had the backing of Wildhammer, Ironforge, Lordaeron, Dalaran, and Quel'Thalas. The only Alliance nations Garithos didn't have support from was Kul Tiras which had already sent everything to Kalimdor; and Stormwind and Gnomeregan which were absent for the whole Third War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Btw, Garithos and his army were killed on Sylvanas orders in the capital city of Lordaeron. If any are still around walking today they do so as Forsaken. However, it doesn't look like the Blood Elves hold a grudge against them.
    If the BElves could even recognize any of those people who became Forsaken.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2017-11-17 at 05:48 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Materials from after that Ask CDev call his group Alliance (UVG, Annual 2015).
    I'll take your word for it since I don't have the UVG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    He was acting supreme commander of the Alliance. He had the deference of Alliance nations' militaries just like Turalyon when Lothar died. Leadership went down the chain of command to highest ranking survivor.
    Does the UVG state he is the Supreme Commander of all Alliance forces ? According to Tides of Darkness Turalyon was appointed as Supreme Commander of the Alliance by all the heads of state of the Alliance nations after Anduin Lothar died. Garithos was the leader of the Alliance forces in Lordaeron but it seems weird he would have been appointed as its Supreme Commander.

    Our characters were not the Supreme Commander of the Alliance in WoD, Bolvar was not the Supreme Commander of the Alliance in WotLK. It could be that the function of Supreme Commander was no longer even used after Turalyon went to Outland since there was no need for a combined Alliance army.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Kael had to fight a servant of the Kirin Tor to escape. 2 of the most powerful magi around couldn't conjure any kind of spell to help. Maybe a teleport or illusion or just a distraction. Maybe apologize at least for being unable to act? Instead, they did nothing.
    We only have Rommath's word for it they did nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    That's his opinion. It's not a representation of how the story goes. All H/BElves and Highborne were persecuted for the select Highborne that joined the Legion. All of humanity was targeted by Sylvanas because of Arthas. The Alliance and Dalaran are held responsible for the betraying Silvermoon. All BElves are hated because Vereesa's cousin was racist. Alliance spies infiltrated Quel'Thalas and pushed Silvermoon into the Horde. All BElves were blamed when a couple BElf agents betrayed Dalaran. All races in the Horde were held responsible for Garrosh's leadership. Thrall was blamed for Garrosh's actions. Alliance blames Sylvanas/Horde for Broken Shore and Varian's death (the "betrayal" was even mentioned during BlizzCon's BfA panels).

    Blaming many for the actions of a few is one of the constants in Warcraft. It is even more legitimate when those "few" have the support of their factions like Garithos did. He had the backing of Wildhammer, Ironforge, Lordaeron, Dalaran, and Quel'Thalas. The only Alliance nations Garithos didn't have support from was Kul Tiras which had already sent everything to Kalimdor; and Stormwind and Gnomeregan which were absent for the whole Third War.
    I know how the story goes. I guess we look at this from a different perspective. I look at the story from the outside not as an inhabitant of Azeroth. Blood Elves, especially Kael'thas and Rommath blame(d) the Alliance for what happened to them which is totally understandable from their viewpoint. I'm not a Blood Elf living on Azeroth so I don't look at it from the viewpoint of a Blood Elf.

  9. #349
    Tittle says it all. And no amount of denial from alliance players will change that.

  10. #350
    Herald of the Titans Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Tittle says it all. And no amount of denial from alliance players will change that.
    Doesn't mean they won't keep trying. Unless something drastic happens in the lore to foreclose their hopes (fingers crossed, it might).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    You can play a High Elf. You just gotta roll Horde.

  11. #351
    Epic! Kenji87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I have been noticing some confusion (as often is the case when elves are involved). High Elves are Blood Elves.

    If a Blood Elf deserts/exiled from Silvermoon he is automatically a High Elf as he rejects the current direction and regime operating out of Quel'thalas or is annexed from it.
    If a High Elf returns to Silvermoon for good, he is automaically a Blood Elf as he accepts the current direction and regime operating out of Quel'thalas.

    This has been clear from day one. Many high elves returned to Silvermoon becoming blood elves, and many left Silvermoon or were exiled/deserted becoming high elves once more.

    You are politically a high elf if you leave the Quel'thalas regime and ESPECIALLY if you join up with the alliance. By default ALL VOID ELVES - whether they have been blood elves for the past 5 years or not, are now high elves politically because they have left Silvermoon as exiles.

    If a Thalassian elf is exiled he becomes a high elf again. It's a politically disposition. His eyes don't have to be green or blue. We've been told many times, not ALL blood elves eyes are green, just that most are. And not all high elves' eyes are blue either.

    By default all void elves are politically high elves. Void elf is the sub-race type, high elf is the political affliation. If you are playing a void elf in the next expansion, good luck to you, you are a high elf politically. It doesn't matter if you were blood elf for the last 10 years, or from the start of the movement, or you joined much later. You rejoined the alliance and are now politically a high elf.

    Void elf is a high elf sub-race. Technically speaking it CANNOT be blood elf one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Technically speaking, all darkfallen are high elves, blood elves were the majority of survivors. Also not all high elves are allied with the alliance, some are about doing weird shit and not very good shit either, they are not blood elves because they never joined up with the Sin'dorei movement - an example would be the necromancers in scholomance, they are all high elves. Cultists you saw in vanilla are all high elves too. Blood elves are a particular group of high elves united under this new purpose and they have control of Quel'thalas and Silvermoon City. They are possibly the largest group of the race.

    However if you count all the unaffliated high elves together, including the sub-race ones like the Darkfallen and void elves, then who knows.

    Most Fel elves are BLOOD ELVES, like pretty much all. The vast majority of Wretched are also blood elves. Only the Quel'lithien lodge wretched are high elves.
    Well technically, Blood Elves are High Elves, they just changed their name.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenji87 View Post
    Well technically, Blood Elves are High Elves, they just changed their name.
    That is actually the right way round, but since most are familiar with blood elf as it's the playable race, they'd recognise it more if stated the other way round

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Does the UVG state he is the Supreme Commander of all Alliance forces ? According to Tides of Darkness Turalyon was appointed as Supreme Commander of the Alliance by all the heads of state of the Alliance nations after Anduin Lothar died. Garithos was the leader of the Alliance forces in Lordaeron but it seems weird he would have been appointed as its Supreme Commander.
    Garithos was acting supreme commander due to being the highest ranked officer remaining, not officially appointed. Just like how Turalyon took up that position on the battlefield by assuming command. Turalyon wasn't formally promoted until after the Horde was defeated and DP destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    We only have Rommath's word for it they did nothing.
    Modera and the rest knew well enough to stay away from Silvermoon.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

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