Survival Needs to Stay and be Fixed

[Nubulous]

They need to make the spec way less convoluted.

Like, do we really need 2 ~30s CDs, a 15s DoT, a 10s 4-stacks buff, a 14s awesome-damage debuff window and a 6s CD focus dump + an additional spam button to dump more focus while also having 2-4 1min+ CDs?

It's like they didn't know what to do with the spec so they just threw everything at it.
You could easily cut half of SVs buttons and still be left with a solid spec that doesn't feel like it has to juggle 20 balls once you open the MB window.

The main reason I havent played much survival. In a raid setting there is just way too much shit to do and if you mess up your dps will be lower than just playing BM or MM. All they need to do is trim it down a bit and I would play it probably

[Araya]

Biggest gripes with Survival are Mongoose Bite and Traps. MB charges I feel either need more base charges, or they need to proc more often, its so tiring and frustrating getting close to max but then the boss moves, or you didn't quite get to 6 because of some bad luck. Traps are just overall clunky AF and either need to become optional with there power moved elsewhere or back them easier to use (shouldn't need a macro to make something useful from the get go).


Or yeah know, change it back to MoP survival which was my favourite of the 3 specs. Whichever is easier.

[Deleted]

It's true that the combo points that u have to mantain are a bit...gñeee...but it's not that bad, what i really like is more traps instead of so many melee attacks. And the talent that the MM hunters have that have more damage if u don't have a pet, that can be cool, cause, u know, u are a SURVIVAL...so...

[Nythiz]

I really do think that with some changes, the spec could be fantastic! It was just executed poorly in Legion.

Traps: Really needs to either drop from the rotation, or have an option to be placed on target instead of cursor/player, as it can be extremely frustrating to drop an exp trap with it not being triggered by the target. Macro solution via @Target?

You can use @Player macros for the traps.

When holding shift it casts the trap as normal with targeting required. When not holding shift, you just automatically throw the trap at your feet. Hope this helps.
/cast [mod:shift] [@ player] Explosive Trap

(remove the space after the @ sign, space is required to keep forum from changing it)

The macro's make traps a lot easier to deal with. But lets be real here, you shouldn't need macros to make abilities work properly should you ?
Now I don't think there is a perfect solution for this, but there ought to be something better than what we have now.

Currently i just use different keybinds to place traps either "@player" or regularly, but it does require me to get 3 addition binds (freezing / tar / explosive traps; you still want to retain an option to toss them at range too) while really that shouldn't be needed if the skills were designed better.

Mongoose mechanic: I like the concept, can be extremely frustrating if suddenly tearing away from the boss, or a late money shot. Maybe turn into Combo Points?
Carve: Loved it! I think having an option of Butchery and a dot based AoE via talents is wonderful. While Dragonsfire was a bit meh, it made sense for a base carve option.
Disengage: Just make it baseline, like the other specs.
Raptor Strike: Is it really needed? IMO would just like to see this and Mok'Nathal gone as it just feels like bloat.
Harpoon, Lacerate, Flanking Strike and Pet: Wonderful. These abilities seem to be great as is.

The mongoose fury mechanic needs a bit of rethinking. IMO the build up is a bit on the long side for good rotational flow. Where it should feel like a bonus, it feels more like you're being punished a lot if you can't get enough mongoose bites in this window; that kills the enjoyment for a lot of people.
I think the whole mechanic needs to be approached differently from the 14 second static window you get now, it just comes with too many quircks:
- It builds up a bit too slowly, making SV feel like a spec with poor opening burst
- It's extremely punishing if it's not executed properly, be it by player error or simply by being forced to move or execute a mechanic.
- There are occassions where you need to manually remove the Mongoose Fury buff, because of an error (e.g. accidentally popping an extra MB after the timer runs out) or because you simply want to reset.
I like the idea behind it, but in practice it's rather clunky and that needs fixing.

I'm a bit on the fence about Carve. I feel like it's hardly ever used with Butchery being Butchery. I feel like it's one of those bloat abilities as you swap to Butchery anyway the moment any kind of AoE presents itself. Maybe Butchery can just become baseline with the current talent reducing the cooldown or giving you 1-3 extra stacks or something.

Agreed on the disengage part.

Raptor strike needs to go. It's lame and uninteresting. The only reason that it's actually on anyones bar is generally because of Way of the Mok'nathal and that is a horrible talent in itself.

Even if they fix and make Survival flavor of the expansion, being ahead 600k dps compared to other Hunter specs I still wouldn't play it.
Why? I rolled a Huntard to be Ranged.

Too many replies like these in any kind of SV discussion.
Face it people, it's extremely unlikely that SV returns to being a ranged spec so any kind of whining is pointless.
If you don't like playing melee, fine play MM or BM; I prefer ranged too and I play those specs, but I do like melee as well and having 3 solid specs is always a plus.
If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, just avoid SV topics man.

[Dadwen]

Too many replies like these in any kind of SV discussion.
Face it people, it's extremely unlikely that SV returns to being a ranged spec so any kind of whining is pointless.
If you don't like playing melee, fine play MM or BM; I prefer ranged too and I play those specs, but I do like melee as well and having 3 solid specs is always a plus.
If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, just avoid SV topics man.

Seeing at the title of the thread is "Thread: Survival Needs to Stay and be Fixed" seems like it's asking for a counter argument or is it just that much of a garbage spec it can't stand up to the criticism.

Granted at this point some like myself are probably just here for the LOL at the morons calling it's original design melee (even in the Class description it was called range it just had a better tool kit for the dead zone till it got back to preferred range)

[Deleted]

Seeing at the title of the thread is "Thread: Survival Needs to Stay and be Fixed" seems like it's asking for a counter argument or is it just that much of a garbage spec it can't stand up to the criticism.

Granted at this point some like myself are probably just here for the LOL at the morons calling it's original design melee (even in the Class description it was called range it just had a better tool kit for the dead zone till it got back to preferred range)

What, you didn't play the first half of vanilla? You're probably some AQ40 baby, my dude.

Irregardless, Survival since its very inception has been a shit-tier meme spec that has only existed for as long as it did due to Blizzard being forced to maintain 3 specs on a class. Making it the designated melee spec and actually giving it some direction is the right thing to do. And yes, when I call Survival a craptacular meme spec, that also includes whenever the spec pulled ahead the other two in numbers.

Feel free to reply to me, but I'm not gonna take this discussion any further.

[Dadwen]

What, you didn't play the first half of vanilla? You're probably some AQ40 baby, my dude.

Irregardless, Survival since its very inception has been a shit-tier meme spec that has only existed for as long as it did due to Blizzard being forced to maintain 3 specs on a class. Making it the designated melee spec and actually giving it some direction is the right thing to do. And yes, when I call Survival a craptacular meme spec, that also includes whenever the spec pulled ahead the other two in numbers.

Feel free to reply to me, but I'm not gonna take this discussion any further.

I started a month after WOW went live.... but not sure what your point is (if any) it was not a melee spec.

being your post was all just crap and didn't really respond to anything I said can't imagine why you would not discuss further...

[Elderwolf]

I hope fury of the eagle doesn't come back as a talent choice Hate it..... would rather get mongoose to the 6 stacks then have a hard hitting ability to clear the stacks. i love the traps but there defo need to be throw/place on target would make the spec feel more smooth............ if it wasn't for survival i would stay clear of hunter BM feels soo boring now and MM to me does not feel like a marksman

[Deleted]

Two problems that need addressing. The spec is clunky, the most clunky spec in the game. Which is weird since it is new and did not build something modern like the demon hunter.

Second the class has zero identity. Nothing about the spec makes me want to play it over other specs. Its a melee fighter with a pet. Unholy DK's fill that 10 times better with how amazing the class identity of unholy is.

The pet is so tacked on as an afterthought with zero development put into it. The traps feel lackluster and for the most part say "engineer" rather than "hunter."

What would be better is to maybe play on the word survival and build around it. Survival of the fittest! Make the hunter feel like he can survive every situation and dominate others.

The whole problem is this identity sounds cool out in the wild but sounds stupid in raiding context.

Does a survivial hunter hit as hard as a warrior in lore? No

Does a survivial hunter the only one that uses bleeds to give identity? No...

Is it the only class to use tools to move to enemies? No outlaw rogues do that also

Do they use their pets in a creative way? No, a frost mage actually has more interaction with its pet.

The spec has zero identity...

[Sci Fi Samurai]

But lets be real here, you shouldn't need macros to make abilities work properly should you ?

I've wondered this too.

Idk how easy it would be for Blizz to add a system like:

Tap button = cast spell at player
Hold button = gives targeting reticule to place spell at a remote location

[Thagrynor]

What would be better is to maybe play on the word survival and build around it. Survival of the fittest! Make the hunter feel like he can survive every situation and dominate others.

I say we take it a step further and use this statement as the basis to turn Survival into a tank spec. Think about it: You have abilities that bounce threat between you and your pet. You can use traps for a variety of reasons. You are in melee, so it doesn't require any special weird gimmicky type abilities to make it work as a tank. Focus your mitigation on Dodge and Parry, with certain Aspects being used as CDs. I think it would give the spec identity and not seem weird that you have some random ass melee DPS spec in what has almost forever been a ranged DPS class. It would also make the hunter unique in that it is either a tank or a ranged DPS. Every other tank either has an additional healing spec or is just melee DPS otherwise. Plus, it would give us a Mail wearing tank, which would change things around a little.

[hawtlol]

I still don't get it. I've been playing it for the whole expansion and is by far and away the most entertaining spec I've played in some time. Nothing feels clunky. I like that it can have good burst and sustain as well as being able to have high ST or high AoE damage. It's one of the most balanced classes in the game for all around play.

[Arenis]

We are the ranged survival hunters, the TRUE survival hunters! We die, bloody and thrashing on the field of battle, like true hunters should! You are a hunter no longer, and speak for none but yourself. You betrayed our people to forge your fragile melee spec, and I will take great pleasure in tearing it apart.

I won't let MY people starve to death on the forums. I will stop at nothing - NOTHING - to ensure a proud and glorious future for ranged survival hunters and anyone with the courage to stand with us.

[Deleted]

I still don't get it. I've been playing it for the whole expansion and is by far and away the most entertaining spec I've played in some time. Nothing feels clunky. I like that it can have good burst and sustain as well as being able to have high ST or high AoE damage. It's one of the most balanced classes in the game for all around play.

The spec has multiple short duration maintenance buffs and debuffs with different durations and also short damage windows that require you to spam a skill not twice or thrice, but more than 6 times with a 1,5s GCD on top of that, it also features the highest amount of rotational (sub 20s/30s ) CDs (probably)- that's reason enough to call it clunky.

Feels like the spec is build with a much shorter GCD in mind.

[Nythiz]

Seeing at the title of the thread is "Thread: Survival Needs to Stay and be Fixed" seems like it's asking for a counter argument or is it just that much of a garbage spec it can't stand up to the criticism.

Granted at this point some like myself are probably just here for the LOL at the morons calling it's original design melee (even in the Class description it was called range it just had a better tool kit for the dead zone till it got back to preferred range)

A counter argument is good.
But 90% of the replies against SV either aren't arguments, are fallacies or are just flame bait.
Saying you want SV gone because you think it sucks is not a good argument.

Saying SV is in a bad shape is fine; but repeating the circlejerk of whining about how it should be turned back into a ranged spec is getting old really fast. I think the large majority (myself included) would prefer to have MoP style ranged SV back, but I don't see that happening with blizzards history on these kind of things. Might as well discuss how a bad shape melee spec might be turned into a decent-good shape melee spec.

As for morons calling original SV melee. Most of them probably didn't even play vanilla.
In vanilla there was never really such a thing as a melee hunter, outside of possible jokes / gimmicky stuff. SV was ranged just as much as anything else.

All the SV tree did was increase your options/strength/survivability somewhat in melee range (below 5 yard) so that you were a bit better balanced as hunter; instead of increasing your strong side at 8+ yards which BM and MM did. That didn't make you a melee hunter though, you'd still want to get out of melee back in to the ranged zone.
That's also why a lot of pvp specs went deep into MM or BM and then took the first 10-20 points in survival as that already included a major part of that melee range benefit.

- - - Updated - - -

I still don't get it. I've been playing it for the whole expansion and is by far and away the most entertaining spec I've played in some time. Nothing feels clunky. I like that it can have good burst and sustain as well as being able to have high ST or high AoE damage. It's one of the most balanced classes in the game for all around play.

It's clunky for multiple reasons.

First of all there is the Mongoose Bite part of the rotation where you just spam MB a lot. This isn't entertaining, it doesn't feel like good design. It feels like something out of the vanilla/tbc age where you had these 1 button spam classes.
The whole mongoose fury window thing also doesn't shine in the "great flow"-department. On one hand it's very unforgiving if you get CC'ed or have to get out of melee range; on the other hand it's also not very punishing as you can just click away the buff (<-- CLUNKY MECHANIC) and start over. That makes it feel clunky because it's neither very rewarding, unlike say a big cooldown that gets messed up, nor does it flow well.

-------

Second is the "filler" part of the rotation where you apply several debuffs.
They are a bit clunky in the way that, they are:

a) Rather underwhelming. When you play a spec that is quite DoT heavy, such as survival, the DoT components need to have some weight. Yet SV DoTs are not all that high on the priority list when playing the spec (as in, when you get 3 MB stacks, you ignore them and go for MB spam), which makes them feel underwhelming and have a sub-95% uptime.

b) Lack a bit of identity. Lacerate is quite OK, but Spitting Cobra / Steel trap / Explosive Trap. They're nice and all, but it feels a bit cramped with so many random damage sources that really are not that important anyway. Talents really should CHANGE the abilities already in place instead of adding more, makes the spec feel bloated with a lot of low damage sources.

c) Lack a lot of synergy. The only ability that has synergy is Flanking Strikes as it gives a high(er) chance on proccing a MB stack. Other than that and Lacerate with Mortal Wounds there is 0 synergy. Skills should affect one another so that the rotation feels more cohesive. E.g. Mongoose Bite could do more damage depending on how many DoTs you have on the target. BAM instant reason to use skills, instant positive feedback loop, instant synergy. (I'm not saying this is a good solution, but im just saying it's not hard to make up inter-skill synergy)

d) Lackluster and unnecessary bloat.
I mean wtf is Way of the Mok'Nathal doing there? I thought we were past TBC expansion? This is Savage Roar 2.0 (for those familiar with feral druids), it's just a buff for the sake of having a buff. There is 0 feedback, it forces you to use a skill that is dead otherwise, it cuts into the flow of your rotation in a very unsubtle way and worst of all is that there is little feedback as it just increases your numbers ever so slightly (as in, only feedback is you dropping on the dps meters if you don't have it up).
This could have been 4% haste per WotM application and instantly it would already be better for the simple fact that it gives instant feedback. You FEEL your rotation improving as you get more haste. Extra AP doesn't feed back into the rotation.
Raptor Strike is also not really useful outside of WotM, not even really sure why its there. It's nice to bleed focus with, but really how many free GCDs do you even have to do this? Not many I guess.

----

Last but not least is the flow between the 2 rotations. Both the MB spam and filler part feel very detached. There is no gradient between the skills. It's just a very solid divider between you either being in MB spam mode where it's practically only MB+FlS+Artifact or you're in filler mode where it's anything other than MB+artifact. The only overlap there is FlS and it's because it has some of that synergy.

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SV can easily be salvaged. It has some really unpolished gems in there. But the rotation is just clunky and full of bloated abilities.

[Niroshi]

I really just want to see Survival gain a much more focused flow, and to connect the dots more in gameplay. I can't really even comment on a long list of things I'd like to see since mostly it's going to revolve around different concepts for Survival feeling entirely separate from each other.

I'd like for Survival to end up more like Fury. Everything about the core kit of Fury has a place in the spec and most of their commonly used single abilities have great synergy with the rest of their kit. Not much is just there for the sake of being there like Lacerate or Explosive Trap.

Since they're giving us all unique buffs back, can we have back Expose Weakness or something?

[threads]

Useless?

It's an extremely high dps spec, with great utility, movement and CC effects. The only issue it has is how squishy and clunky it is.

A good Survival hunter will stomp meters but it's almost impossible to play it perfectly in a raid setting.

majority don't want this spec. it's like 5 half finished ideas clumped together and does garbage damage.

majority are playing BM right now. BM is the lowest dps spec. that should tell you a lot. people want to be mobile and ranged like we've been for 10 yrs.

you don't see any other class mostly playing their lowest dps spec except this one. that is how shit the redesign for legion turned out.

[Nefarious Tea]

Personal big problems with Survival:

1. Raptor Strike and Flanking Strike are separate abilities. If they were rolled together (ie. proc both the Mok'nathal buff and the increased chance for Mongoose Bite charge) it would be better. They're both Focus spenders anyway. A spec doesn't need multiple single target spenders.

2. Traps. Survival should have a special passive that automatically throws traps at the current target instead of a targeting reticle.

3. The Mongoose Bite window. Spamming one ability isn't really great, nor fun. The stacking damage is interesting, the burst window is interesting, but it needs to be changed in some way. Perhaps make it stack to six then disappear with no timer? Perhaps make it affect another ability instead? perhaps make it partially refresh duration, so that you can try to milk it as long as possible (like the Frost Mage talent Thermal Void)?

- - - Updated - - -

majority don't want this spec. it's like 5 half finished ideas clumped together and does garbage damage.

majority are playing BM right now. BM is the lowest dps spec. that should tell you a lot. people want to be mobile and ranged like we've been for 10 yrs.

you don't see any other class mostly playing their lowest dps spec except this one. that is how shit the redesign for legion turned out.

That's because BM is piss easy. You literally have 1.5 rotational buttons. There's a reason it's always been called the noob spec.

[Kissthebaby]

Logs mean nothing when the main reason most Hunters go ranged is due to the tight ranged requirement and a bulk of specs already being melee. Every time Survival has shown up in a raid on a competitive world first stage (Like Gul'dan) it has dominated.

Survival is theoretically the highest dps spec for Hunters but the mechanics in Tomb, like Sasszine are so punishing to melee, and Survival is so handicapped by it's own design it prevents them from shining.

Again, this needs fixes. People refuse to see reality and instead worship Noxxic like it's their god.

This sounds made up

[hawtlol]

The spec has multiple short duration maintenance buffs and debuffs with different durations and also short damage windows that require you to spam a skill not twice or thrice, but more than 6 times with a 1,5s GCD on top of that, it also features the highest amount of rotational (sub 20s/30s ) CDs (probably)- that's reason enough to call it clunky.

Feels like the spec is build with a much shorter GCD in mind.

Don't know. That's fun to me. I never really have a problem reaching 6 stacks of mongoose bites.