Soul crushing pug experience

[Tech614]

Unfortunately, that's been that way since gearscore in Wrath. They don't care about your experience. They want the ilvl and the achievement, and they usually want ilvls above what is dropping in the content that they're wanting people for. So stupid.

You go PUG HKJ and invite only 920 people and tell me how that works out for you.

[epLe]

You go PUG HKJ and invite only 920 people and tell me how that works out for you.

Pretty sure the pug i got curve KJ with early weeks of this tier had exactly 920 req.

[Deleted]

With n ilvl of 937 equipped you wouldn't be able to join.

Ohh please, just stop it before I`m going to cry Trolls nowadays are so lame...:P

[Tech614]

Pretty sure the pug i got curve KJ with early weeks of this tier had exactly 920 req.

Because the good players we're in that range at the time when NH Mythic geared level was 915?

Right now what do you think the quality of player is rocking 920? I have 3 alts that don't even raid mythic, 2 that don't even raid heroic and all are over 940. You're getting nothing but terrible players at that low of an ilvl on average right now. That's a fact.

[Deleted]

Because the good players we're in that range at the time when NH Mythic geared level was 915?

Right now what do you think the quality of player is rocking 920? I have 3 alts that don't even raid mythic, 2 that don't even raid heroic and all are over 940. You're getting nothing but terrible players at that low of an ilvl on average right now. That's a fact.

Sorry for that...Again..Full hc set (used only 4 ofc) 2 legendaries (ofc) and 937 equipped... (fking unlucky with trinkets...) I`m a bad player, once more, sorry for that....(as far I know the best ilvl in my guild is 942...we are a casual guild, 3 mythic kill for them (14th on the realm), for me only 1, just came back after 1,5 months break..) According to wowprogress I`m the 49th on my realm (ilvl) Oddly enough the first guild on the server with 9/9 mythic have 942 average ilvl..my guild have 938...So let me guess...you either full of crap and lies or you just simply sucks and don`t know what is good for your spec, just going for higher ilvl...and this is a fact...

[Tech614]

you either full of crap and lies or you just simply sucks and don`t know what is good for your spec, just going for higher ilvl...and this is a fact...

1) We're talking 920. Not 937. You literally failed at your argument in the first line but I'll humor the rest just for the sake of it.

2) Full of crap? You realize we're talking about LFG finder right now kid? We're not talking your optimized setup we're talking what you show up as in LFG(which is your possible ilvl and not your equiped one). If you put the requirements at 940 you're getting people anywhere from 934-938 queing probably that have 940+ possible in bags. You put it at 920 and guess what are you getting?

3) Please actually read the discussion and respond to it coherently not with some ass pull strawman arguments. We're having a discusion about how to successfully pug the thing without it being "soulcrushing" and that is being picky. You don't need to waste time with logs either like people are claiming. High showup ilvl, whispers you and has a conversation not just linking you something like a blind robot and you probably have a decent player. That simple. I gaurantee you will never kill KJ if you invite people showing up as 920 in the LFG right now(not 4 months ago right NOW). That's a fact.

[Caprix]

I don't pug a lot, but did KJ a couple weeks ago late in the week with my main because i'd been away for a few days. I think the ilvl requirement was like 920 or 925. RL was ok with people without achievement, but required everyone on vocal, pressed everyone to ask about anything unclear about the strat.
so 5min talk before starting, maybe 3-4 tries with some fails/bad combos, obviously i carried quite a bit in the healing departement but there were no really supermen making up for other mistakes, and KJ's done with half the raid getting achievement, maybe 30-40min after i joined the raid.. seems ok for what it was.

The core of the pug was like 5 players (over 15) from the same guild/friend group.

Communication...

[Lady Velvet]

Soul crushing? Having little less faith in humanity? Come on now, OP.
Pugs are not always like that. You are a person that raids in a guild and decided to pug one boss and that ended up horribly, so what, exactly?
I've been pugging my raids ever since SoO (simply because I can't be committed to a guild due to RL stuff) and while I do agree that you meet "horrible" players sometimes, I can also say that you meet wonderful players too. I've met a lot of friends thanks to pugging, and I've never found it "soul crushing" despite me having much worse pug experiences than what you've just described..

[LanToaster]

You can’t invite people based on ilvl anymore. It’s so inflated with Titanforging/relinquished/welfare world bosses.

People who have never stepped foot in an actual raid or have never done high M+ have 935+ ilvl due to relinquished gear Titanforging, world boss gear being 930, LFR gear Titanforging, etc.

Always armory people if you’re looking for a fast quick run. Linking achievements is also sketchy since that retarded fake achievement addon is still active for some reason.

The good news is this won’t be nearly as rampant next expansion. Azerite gear can’t tf, no RNG legendaries and TF is being toned down a bit.

I liked in WoD the Proving Grounds (I think its called in English). And that it showed your medal in the Application.
Didn´t obviously work so well for Raids, because the lack of scaling. But essentially, the proving ground tested your basic awerness you would also need for a raid.

Target Priority, Movement, DPS, and Silences.

This system expanded to take into account your Gear and scale it appropriately. Would be awesome.

Please note:
I´m not a fan of: "To come into my ToS Normal Group, you need to have at least cleared ToS on HC" I´m content when my GroupMembers bring the neccessary skill to learn the Encounter in 2 tries. (Because THAT will overall increase the amount of people who can do the Encounters)

Then sorry, I wouldn't carry you.

Thats actually sad if you think an Itemlevel that surpasses what even drops there means he has to be Carried.
How the hell are people supposed to first clear the Raid if they dont even have the Items that drop there, (Or the Achievment of the last boss)

Blizzard outlined that quite Hillarious in the April Fools PatchNotes this year.

[YouWillAllAnswerToSithis]

Yeah, PUGs are something else, but there are good and bad groups. It takes fine tuning to get what is needed, and even after that, there's always the possibility of failure. You can meet some awesome people this way however, if all goes well. That said, I'd wait it out until Antorus or the next expansion to get the HC-KJ skin. That's what I'm doing. I have 3/4 to hold me over, with Arcane/Fire/Frost completed altogether.

Good luck, OP. I'm off to play some Skyrim!

[Marrilaife]

We're not talking your optimized setup we're talking what you show up as in LFG(which is your possible ilvl and not your equiped one). If you put the requirements at 940 you're getting people anywhere from 934-938 queing probably that have 940+ possible in bags. You put it at 920 and guess what are you getting?

Few days ago I had a 948 Warrior queue but on armory he was 935 - that's the disparity. Point is, I armory him, I see convergence and arcanocrystal, and I know he's choosing trinkets based on what's strong not what's high ilvl, so I invite him and he played well. Not always foolproof, but if I armory a guy and he has slapped together highest ilvl crap with no rhythm or rhyme, then I'm more wary - could be unplayed alt, could be a guy who bought +10 (soon +15) boost every week, and so forth.

But yeah, if you downgrade bagged ilvl to use set bonus or overbudget trinket, that's a plus not a reason to kick someone...

[superhumanj]

You can't just invite people based off their ilvl and linking an achievement, Achievements are very easily faked (and look real)

If you actually want to vet people and have it work every time use MPH https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addon...ic-plus-helper http://mythicplus.help/ once you have the addon and the website open all you have to do is type in /mph in game you get a window with a lot of text press Ctrl+C to copy, tab to the website hit Ctrl+v to paste.

It'll look up everyone in your group and signed up, if you're in a party it'll show mythic+ info if you're in a raid it shows raiding info.
It shows you important detail at a glance like their equipped/inbags ilvl legendaries and tier set bonuses they logged out with, and the best part when you hover over their name a quick link to more info pop up armory/warcraft logs/raider.io/wowprogress from here just hover over their name to get to their logs and check their parses don't just look at best parses but average parses and you will quickly know if they know how to dps and not die. https://imgur.com/a/61Jy3

- - - Updated - - -

I liked in WoD the Proving Grounds (I think its called in English). And that it showed your medal in the Application.
Didn´t obviously work so well for Raids, because the lack of scaling. But essentially, the proving ground tested your basic awerness you would also need for a raid.

Target Priority, Movement, DPS, and Silences.

This system expanded to take into account your Gear and scale it appropriately. Would be awesome.

Please note:
I´m not a fan of: "To come into my ToS Normal Group, you need to have at least cleared ToS on HC" I´m content when my GroupMembers bring the neccessary skill to learn the Encounter in 2 tries. (Because THAT will overall increase the amount of people who can do the Encounters)



Thats actually sad if you think an Itemlevel that surpasses what even drops there means he has to be Carried.
How the hell are people supposed to first clear the Raid if they dont even have the Items that drop there, (Or the Achievment of the last boss)

Blizzard outlined that quite Hillarious in the April Fools PatchNotes this year.

Everyone is allowed to run with the crowd they want, people that cleared the content 4 months ago probably aren't going into the raid expecting a wipe. To prevent wipes they will try to assemble a group of peers that are also way overqualified for the raid, this not only increases your chance at a smooth run but also increase the chances that someone gets a good item they don't need you can have.

[LanToaster]

Everyone is allowed to run with the crowd they want, people that cleared the content 4 months ago probably aren't going into the raid expecting a wipe. To prevent wipes they will try to assemble a group of peers that are also way overqualified for the raid, this not only increases your chance at a smooth run but also increase the chances that someone gets a good item they don't need you can have.

I´m not sure on which part of my Posting you are answering.
If you talk about the first part, thats a thought. Which could improve your ways of seeing who can be taken with you.
Almost all other stuff which people check is Buyable. A Singleplayer Szenario, not so much.

If you are reffering to the second part. Its actually a sarcastic remark on the one who said, he wont carry a 930 gearscore.
Sure, people take who they want, and I´m not one to suggest otherwise. And I also agree with you.
(While I´m into raiding more for the actual Raiding part, not the killing and looting part, I still like to clear the raid withing a reasonable amount of time)

But, shockingly most of the time (I dont Raid anymore in a fixed group, so I only raid in Pugs), the first week when a Raid opens, I find quite a large amount of groups. (Sure, most of them are wipefests, not much of a problem for me though)
But as soon as week 2 hits, it gets weird. It feels like around 90% of the Groups I see, require gear on par with the Raid, and at least a full clear.
And after that, I see even mostly Raids who want HC clear.

Again, as you said: Everyone is allowed to run with the crowd they want.
But the funny thing is: Even those groups fail (at least the I joined one with such clear Requirements) almost always fail. While when I join a rare group who takes its time, and asks if someone doesnt know it, and in most times explains it regardles, work most of the time flawless.

[potis]

But, shockingly most of the time (I dont Raid anymore in a fixed group, so I only raid in Pugs), the first week when a Raid opens, I find quite a large amount of groups. (Sure, most of them are wipefests, not much of a problem for me though)
But as soon as week 2 hits, it gets weird. It feels like around 90% of the Groups I see, require gear on par with the Raid, and at least a full clear.
And after that, I see even mostly Raids who want HC clear.

Thats just idiots wanting to get carried, and the sad part is, if they insist a lot they do get carried, not all of them but some do.

Problem is that:

Player 1 that actually cleared 90% if not 100% of HC first week, wants to clear HC on alt second week because he knows he has to clear HC with main.

Player 1 sets stupid requirement and takes hours to create a raid to actually find similar people.

Player 1 gets a good raid going, they might not kill 90% of the instance, but usually first 3-5 bosses do die, if not even more.

Problem is Player 2 to Player 10 see the requirements and try to do something similar, but Player 2-10 dont have the brain to check armory/Logs/progress etc, creating a shit storm group.

Shit storm group might kill first couple of bosses, creating a fake sense of progression (Because first bosses tend to be worthless free loot pinatas either way), continuing the trend every week.

So you reach week 2-3-4, where the guilds clearing HC since week 1 are now boosting socials/friends for curve, or selling it, or trying to gear alts through pugging because its a "casual" mythic guild that focuses on "Clear HC day 1, wipe on mythic for the next 3 days".

Problem is, all those socials, all those raiders with actual HC progress, usually dont know what they are supposed to do, like, i have seen examples throughout all these years of people clearing the raid first week or two, but without knowing exactly what happened, apart from what their class should do "Dont stand there, hit that, dodge that".

In other words, all the socials getting carried, even the raiders getting carried, dont exactly know what the healers did, or the tank did, or someone else did to make the fight manageable, they just DPSed.

That doesnt work in Pugs, unless someone does the small stuff that guarantee a kill, it wont happen, unless brute forced, which does happen with first bosses in a raid,but not the further ones.

And 9/10 pugs are exactly like that, no one knows exactly whats going on in the first the first few weeks, they just know "Their part" aka terrible clueless raiders/players.

Gul'dan was the perfect example of it, the first few weeks,

I met a tank that had something like 908 ilvl few weeks after Nighthold released, with curve, that didnt know how to do the Fel Scythe ability cause he obviously got carried, not even gonna mention he was using wrong talents, he literally didnt know what Fel Scythe was on Gul'dan and had Curve the second week, obviously wiped us in seconds on P2, called him out for it and send him off.

Or the same week, cause i really tryharded the first weeks for that Curve so i could gear my alts the coming weeks, Gul'dan was only possible when the healers knew how to use the soak properly for the chains cause retards would fail 100%, so unless the healer knew the idiots would die to save them , the kills werent possible, or the healers that knew the overlap of chains+explosion that was always the same.

Its small stuff like that , that make pugs doable, its literally 2-3 people carrying the rest that cant look past "Dodge fire, and DPS".

This pretty much stops after the first couple of months were the majority of the pugs has already wiped a lot and has started figuring out things, and the 2-3 players before 6-8 players and pugs become easier.

TLDR: 95% of pug players are completely shit at the game in the concept of not knowing the fights further than "Dodge fire and DPS" despite others doing the small things for them and it takes a few months for the 95% to learn what the 5% did to carry them the first weeks when they couldnt get carried by their guild as social or their alt etc etc.

[LanToaster]

TLDR: 95% of pug players are completely shit at the game in the concept of not knowing the fights further than "Dodge fire and DPS" despite others doing the small things for them and it takes a few months for the 95% to learn what the 5% did to carry them the first weeks when they couldnt get carried by their guild as social or their alt etc etc.

I agree, I wouldnt say that its just 95% of "Socials". At least back then when I still led a Raid (Only Normal 10man though) I came across that my Fixed members almos none knew anything besides their Jobs, and some where even after weeks on farm still a bit helpless without Calls from the Raidlead.

Thats something I actually talked about a bit earlier in this Thread where someone said "He stays clear of Raids who demand Voice Chat".
Because thats where most (at least these early) groups probably fail at: Missing RaidLead.

And I really like having a RaidLead who does activly lead, and calls out stuff, directs people.
Even when its not neccessary, (I play tank Main. And I dont really need someone to tell me "taunt" ontop of the DBM Notice, aswell as my own knowing when to taunt) its still nice.

Gives a bit more sense of "Playing Together" I guess.

And thats why I`m altogether a bit sad that there are actually so few people who would want to lead a proper PuG raid.

[Ange]

Addons like OiLvL show you exactly how many boss kills they got with the current character.
You get allways what you expect, multiclear groups are fast and don't need a raidlead and 1x clear or 0x clear groups end at the gate bosses. In older expansions you could just invite more overgeared DPS to counter low experience, in legion because of the funny oneshot heroic mechanics (mythic mechanics) you just cant compensate.

It is just the same with LFR. If you want your weekly LFR bad luck protection push, you better do it when the majority of the raiders do it, at resetday or resetday+1. ~40 second boss kills and no AFKing at trash is what you get for playing the content when everyone else is doing it.

Doing PUGs or LFR at the weekend of after the weekend is pure cancer.

[potis]

I agree, I wouldnt say that its just 95% of "Socials". At least back then when I still led a Raid (Only Normal 10man though) I came across that my Fixed members almos none knew anything besides their Jobs, and some where even after weeks on farm still a bit helpless without Calls from the Raidlead.

Thats something I actually talked about a bit earlier in this Thread where someone said "He stays clear of Raids who demand Voice Chat".
Because thats where most (at least these early) groups probably fail at: Missing RaidLead.

And I really like having a RaidLead who does activly lead, and calls out stuff, directs people.
Even when its not neccessary, (I play tank Main. And I dont really need someone to tell me "taunt" ontop of the DBM Notice, aswell as my own knowing when to taunt) its still nice.

Gives a bit more sense of "Playing Together" I guess.

And thats why I`m altogether a bit sad that there are actually so few people who would want to lead a proper PuG raid.

What you are describing is called "Raid leading babysitting", its something i have been doing for 13 years as a raid leader, its also called "I do not trust my shit raiders", for the reasons i said above.

Which makes you call out even the useless mechanics, 6 months after cause some retard will eventually fail.

But this also creates a sense of "need" after awhile, people "Need to play with you" cause they get used to it, in the end becoming worst players, its a double sided knife ;p

And i never said 95% of "socials" i said 95% of all raiders, pugs or not.

[LanToaster]

What you are describing is called "Raid leading babysitting", its something i have been doing for 13 years as a raid leader, its also called "I do not trust my shit raiders", for the reasons i said above.

But this also creates a sense of "need" after awhile, people "Need to play with you" cause they get used to it, in the end becoming worst players, its a double sided knife ;p

Sure its a double sided knife. As I said, I can play with or without, but somehow I like with.

^^ I like the saying: "Trust is Good, Control is Better". So, you can Trust you raid, and still control them. *laughs*

[Sylvaeres]

Alot of things be prevented by being much more strict with how you run your group. Announce beforehand that it isn't a learning group, that you expect people to perform to a certain standard, and that you'll replace any people that seem to be a problem immediately. First wipe, you look at the meters, look at soaking damage, and you replace the people that are problems immediately.