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  1. #21
    Mechagnome Echohunter's Avatar
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    They should not change anything about the old pvp system. Is getting the highest rank nearly impossible if you don't play almost all the time? Yes, as it should be. The most dedicated players get the highest rank. Done.

  2. #22
    I am Murloc! Mister K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Getting its own team = a team that could be working on WoW, but isn't.
    Because it would of made a difference... LOL!
    -K

  3. #23
    I'm sure they'll bring it back, the shittier a system is the more people remember it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  4. #24
    I think that if they leave the classes as they were without balancing them, it wouldn't make sense to change this insane honor grinding system. The idea here is that because the classes were unbalanced, it's OK to have a PvP system that isn't based on how well geared you are or how OP your class is, but rather, how much you pvp.

  5. #25
    But why not allow those that want to partake in that system do it? If you dont want to, fine, noone is forcing you. If you want to, but feel like you cant, well too bad for you.

    Theres no real reason to change something that has no relevancy for you. Its a system that awards time spent in it. If you want something that awards skill, then make a system like that? No need to take another one away, so you can have what you want.
    Truth be told, most systems in classic was just that, things that awarded things based on time commitment, not directly skill. Sometimes skills developed due to increased time investment, and thats fine, but it wasnt what the system was there to enhance. Now, why change that? If youre a god-like PvPer and want recognition, im sure you would get that even without a HWL/GM title. I know we had amazing PvPers on bloodscalp EU that never made it to HWL/GM, people knew them anyway.

    Im sure most dont find the essence of grinding interesting, but the rewards are what people do it for. If you remove said goal, that is farmable, you also remove the idea in peoples head that its obtainable. Imagine someone being shit at something, knowing they will only ever get something if they become AMAZING at it, its hard for such a person to argue for continuing the pursuit if theres no way of telling if youre getting better or not..Will you ever get rewarded? But with the PVP system, the goal wasnt to be amazing, it was to grind, everyone could grind, some grinded better than others, but that didnt prohibit anyone from trying, along the way, people got better and more skilled. They might never get the reward the sought to get, but they got rewarded with improved overall skill-level and lesser rewards from the system.
    Im sure the incentive from the old system of farming BGs, was to let everyone participate and thereby feel they had goals to achieve. Mine was to get Knight-Captain, i barely got that, at the time but fucking hell, it felt like GM to me. I wasn't amazing, but i grinded my heart out for it. Id like to pretend that atleast for me, thats good enough. Im not sure everyone is meant to get what they want.
    Leave it be, find your own happiness elsewhere.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    The PvP system is absolutely an essential part of the Classic experience because it's the only way to deliver the Vanilla PvP experience. Change it and it's not Vanilla anymore. Everything in Vanilla focused on grinds, nothing was truly skill-based.

    These things have been repeated ad nauseum throughout all these nonsense threads, of which yours is just one more rehashing a topic that's already been discussed to death.

    The great part is that you don't need to like Vanilla or its systems. It is what it is, and it's not for everybody.
    Blizzard specifically asked for opinions. Didnt find a thread on this while going through the first few pages of the forum so i made one. You can repeat your argument of"everything has to stay exactly as it was" as often as you want but it directly conflicts with what blizzard has said so... you might as well save your breath and instead try to find actual arguments for or against a goven suggestion. R14 grind was not what made vanilla vanilla. It wasnt even what made vanilla pvp vanilla pvp. I absolutely want to keep the prestige of the ranking system but having a grinding competition is just an awful implementation of such a system. Bet you that even the old r14s would prefer a change to the 24/7 grind

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Grungrungrun View Post
    However some random guys ever managed to get private servers running pretty fucking well without anything you just mentioned. I guess nostalrius never happened. Let alone the other dozens of well working privates.

    I'd appreciate if you took your "i hate classic because it personally offends met" to a different thread so we can actually have a discussion about the vanilla pvp system here. Thank you for your understanding.
    Actually, it was built on a classic emulator constructed years upon years ago. Nost built stuff ontop of that. It also took several years to do.

    Let me rephrase that: Blizzard will not want some half-baked wanky project that was pieced together by youtube videos and guesses, they will create the real thing.

    To put it basically, the way private servers are built is rather simple. You set up a basic server that can send and receive data in the same language that the classic client speaks. Every time the client queries the server, you capture that, and you guess what the code running behind the scenes is. There's no secret leaked blizzard server code, people have just spent years guessing what it could be, based on their memories and any evidence they can find, which is why these servers deviate from the original servers - it's a guess. You can get something to appear to function the same way, or close enough.

    I.e. if the client sends a request to the server with something like "GetFireballRank1Damage()", you could work out that it's supposed to query the database and return a numerical value for fireball rank one. It would also handle crit chance, haste, damage range, buffs, etc, etc. So it's fairly complex. Then repeat this ad nauseum until you've pieced together a blizzlike server.

    The bulk of the work was done back in 2004-08 and most p servers will use this baseline to work from, making changes as they see fit.

    Hopefully that helps you understand the difference between live and p servers.

    Also, I don't "hate classic". Just because you don't understand how servers work, doesn't mean I hate classic. I understand how all this is going to work, and I've always stood by Blizzard saying the technical challenge was too great, until they had a breakthrough. Great. Now they need to build the code to work properly on modern architecture and hardware. Let's not have them throw up 13 years of half-baked guesses by amateurs in their basements. Let us have them do it write and well, and bring a true authentic experience. So, I'd appreciate it if you took you're "oh he has a different opinion, HE MUST HATE MY PRECIOUS CLASSIC" mentality to a different thread. I adore classic, and I am looking forward to a proper release. That doesn't mean I am blind to the challenges.
    Last edited by God Save The King; 2017-11-21 at 12:34 AM.
    “You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me.”
    – C.S. Lewis

  8. #28
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grungrungrun View Post
    Blizzard specifically asked for opinions. Didnt find a thread on this while going through the first few pages of the forum so i made one. You can repeat your argument of"everything has to stay exactly as it was" as often as you want but it directly conflicts with what blizzard has said so... you might as well save your breath and instead try to find actual arguments for or against a goven suggestion. R14 grind was not what made vanilla vanilla. It wasnt even what made vanilla pvp vanilla pvp. I absolutely want to keep the prestige of the ranking system but having a grinding competition is just an awful implementation of such a system. Bet you that even the old r14s would prefer a change to the 24/7 grind
    Blizzard hasn't really said anything meaningful, and asking for opinions doesn't mean anything about what they're planning to do.

    All the things that were in Vanilla are what made it Vanilla - it was a composite of all of its systems and components.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Leave it as is. Whoever invested (a lot of) time and effort, got it. Why try to dilute it just so you (without said time and effort) can obtain it?
    Yeah or just have what happened on some servers where people account share to make sure they keep the HWL rank to themselves and their small group. On those realms if you weren't in the top group, didn't account share and couldn't play nearly 16 hours a day then the top couple ranks couldn't be hit. Such Vanilla. Much WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echohunter View Post
    The most dedicated players get the highest rank. Done.
    Dedicated...meaning those that could account share or play 18 hours a day?

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gum View Post
    But why not allow those that want to partake in that system do it? If you dont want to, fine, noone is forcing you. If you want to, but feel like you cant, well too bad for you.

    Theres no real reason to change something that has no relevancy for you. Its a system that awards time spent in it. If you want something that awards skill, then make a system like that? No need to take another one away, so you can have what you want.
    Truth be told, most systems in classic was just that, things that awarded things based on time commitment, not directly skill. Sometimes skills developed due to increased time investment, and thats fine, but it wasnt what the system was there to enhance. Now, why change that? If youre a god-like PvPer and want recognition, im sure you would get that even without a HWL/GM title. I know we had amazing PvPers on bloodscalp EU that never made it to HWL/GM, people knew them anyway.

    Im sure most dont find the essence of grinding interesting, but the rewards are what people do it for. If you remove said goal, that is farmable, you also remove the idea in peoples head that its obtainable. Imagine someone being shit at something, knowing they will only ever get something if they become AMAZING at it, its hard for such a person to argue for continuing the pursuit if theres no way of telling if youre getting better or not..Will you ever get rewarded? But with the PVP system, the goal wasnt to be amazing, it was to grind, everyone could grind, some grinded better than others, but that didnt prohibit anyone from trying, along the way, people got better and more skilled. They might never get the reward the sought to get, but they got rewarded with improved overall skill-level and lesser rewards from the system.
    Im sure the incentive from the old system of farming BGs, was to let everyone participate and thereby feel they had goals to achieve. Mine was to get Knight-Captain, i barely got that, at the time but fucking hell, it felt like GM to me. I wasn't amazing, but i grinded my heart out for it. Id like to pretend that atleast for me, thats good enough. Im not sure everyone is meant to get what they want.
    Leave it be, find your own happiness elsewhere.
    Cant compare normal wow grinding to competitive standings grinding, tho. It literally capped at 24/7 playing. Its super unhealthy (both in terms of actual health as well as the entire rest of your life, like school, job, social environment).

    Its a shitty system. Always has been and I cant believe believe that you guys truly want that back.

    As for the "thats how it was, thats how it should be" guys... save your breath, that argument simply doesnt work. Not with blizzard explicitly asking for feedback on how classic should be implemented.

    Also naming grinding as a way to 100% get something no matter how shit you are at it in the context of a system where the rewards were literally locked away for 99.9% of the playerbase cause they could never compete with a nolifer sharing his acc with another nolifer for 24/7 play is baffling to me.
    Id be very surprised if the classic servers go live without changes to the r14 system.

  11. #31
    Lol at the people in this thread saying "Let it be the way it was."

    Rewarding account sharing and botting is counterproductive to any positive gameplay experience. Get real.

  12. #32
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post

    All the things that were in Vanilla are what made it Vanilla - it was a composite of all of its systems and components.
    Disagree. There was a developer statement recently that hit the nail on the head quite precisely. Something something it wasnt the shitty quests but the social aspects that made vanilla great.

    In the same sense Id argue that the shitty timedump system the r14 system was isnt what made vanilla vanilla, either. Not even what made vanilla pvp vanilla pvp. And if you think changing it so skill is rewarded in pvp instead of time investment would have a negative impact on the pvp community you are clueless.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Grungrungrun View Post
    Blizzard specifically asked for opinions. Didnt find a thread on this while going through the first few pages of the forum so i made one. You can repeat your argument of"everything has to stay exactly as it was" as often as you want but it directly conflicts with what blizzard has said so... you might as well save your breath and instead try to find actual arguments for or against a goven suggestion. R14 grind was not what made vanilla vanilla. It wasnt even what made vanilla pvp vanilla pvp. I absolutely want to keep the prestige of the ranking system but having a grinding competition is just an awful implementation of such a system. Bet you that even the old r14s would prefer a change to the 24/7 grind
    I agree with you, that horrible rank system didn't make Vanilla what it was, nor did it really make PvP what it was. Hell people were pvping before ranks, before battlegrounds with little to no rewards because they found it fun. All the honor system did was make it easy for people to exploit it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zomgzerg View Post
    It was probably the most amazing system and you knew someone who had that title and the gear were players to look up to in game, just like the invested PVE people with legendaries. These people could join an AV battle and command others
    I mean I get the prestige part of it, but that was not the case on all of the servers because of things I've mentioned (account sharing/people exploiting it). And if you think people listened to someone who was high warlord in battlegrounds...that just cracks me up. All those people did was have specialized groups or played as many hours as possible a day. It did not make them a tactical genius.

  14. #34
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grungrungrun View Post
    Disagree. There was a developer statement recently that hit the nail on the head quite precisely. Something something it wasnt the shitty quests but the social aspects that made vanilla great.

    In the same sense Id argue that the shitty timedump system the r14 system was isnt what made vanilla vanilla, either. Not even what made vanilla pvp vanilla pvp. And if you think changing it so skill is rewarded in pvp instead of time investment would have a negative impact on the pvp community you are clueless.
    What makes Vanilla "great" and what makes Vanilla "Vanilla" are two very different concepts. I never said that the old system was good, or that it was better than rewarding skill. That's not the point. I wouldn't argue that things like judgements consuming seals is a "good" system either, but its still a key component of the Paladin class in Vanilla.

    Re-releasing Vanilla isn't about releasing a better version of that iteration of the game, it's about releasing an honest version of that iteration of the game. This isn't a remaster, it's a way to go back and play the game as it used to be.
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2017-11-21 at 12:53 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Sormine View Post
    Lol at the people in this thread saying "Let it be the way it was."

    Rewarding account sharing and botting is counterproductive to any positive gameplay experience. Get real.
    Yup I expect many things to stay the same despite people wishing for some small changes but I really can't see that PvP rank system staying as it was.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    What makes Vanilla "great" and what makes Vanilla "Vanilla" are two very different concepts. Re-releasing Vanilla isn't about releasing a better version of that iteration of the game, it's about releasing an accurate version of that iteration of the game. This isn't a remaster.
    And if it was to be a complete 'accurate' version with zero changes whatsoever Blizz would have said so. Instead they are wanting feedback.

  16. #36
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    And if it was to be a complete 'accurate' version with zero changes whatsoever Blizz would have said so. Instead they are wanting feedback.
    Wanting feedback doesn't mean anything at all, and anyone who knows about development knows that that. Of course Blizzard asks for input, but at the end of the day they do what they want to do.

    The best part is that you'll never know that they didn't listen to you because they covered their bases. Shocking, isn't it.
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2017-11-21 at 12:57 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Wanting feedback doesn't mean anything at all, and anyone who knows about development knows that that. Of course Blizzard asks for input, but at the end of the day they do what they want to do.
    Which means people are free to provide feedback, make threads, voice concerns. You can scream til you are blue in the fucking face that "They will change nothing, and Vanilla is Vanilla" but that does not mean anything. We'll see what happens, til then I suggest people continue to provide feedback.

  18. #38
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Getting its own team = a team that could be working on WoW, but isn't.
    Don't you think that if they needed more people on retail they would hire more?

    too many cooks spoil the broth

  19. #39
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Which means people are free to provide feedback, make threads, voice concerns. You can scream til you are blue in the fucking face that "They will change nothing, and Vanilla is Vanilla" but that does not mean anything. We'll see what happens, til then I suggest people continue to provide feedback.
    I'm not screaming about anything, any more than the people demanding QoL or system changes are. You can scream til you're blue in the face about waiting to see what happens for that matter.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  20. #40
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    Actually, it was built on a classic emulator constructed years upon years ago. Nost built stuff ontop of that. It also took several years to do.

    Let me rephrase that: Blizzard will not want some half-baked wanky project that was pieced together by youtube videos and guesses, they will create the real thing.

    To put it basically, the way private servers are built is rather simple. You set up a basic server that can send and receive data in the same language that the classic client speaks. Every time the client queries the server, you capture that, and you guess what the code running behind the scenes is. There's no secret leaked blizzard server code, people have just spent years guessing what it could be, based on their memories and any evidence they can find, which is why these servers deviate from the original servers - it's a guess. You can get something to appear to function the same way, or close enough.

    I.e. if the client sends a request to the server with something like "GetFireballRank1Damage()", you could work out that it's supposed to query the database and return a numerical value for fireball rank one. It would also handle crit chance, haste, damage range, buffs, etc, etc. So it's fairly complex. Then repeat this ad nauseum until you've pieced together a blizzlike server.

    The bulk of the work was done back in 2004-08 and most p servers will use this baseline to work from, making changes as they see fit.

    Hopefully that helps you understand the difference between live and p servers.

    Also, I don't "hate classic". Just because you don't understand how servers work, doesn't mean I hate classic. I understand how all this is going to work, and I've always stood by Blizzard saying the technical challenge was too great, until they had a breakthrough. Great. Now they need to build the code to work properly on modern architecture and hardware. Let's not have them throw up 13 years of half-baked guesses by amateurs in their basements. Let us have them do it write and well, and bring a true authentic experience. So, I'd appreciate it if you took you're "oh he has a different opinion, HE MUST HATE MY PRECIOUS CLASSIC" mentality to a different thread. I adore classic, and I am looking forward to a proper release. That doesn't mean I am blind to the challenges.
    I retracted the last statement but apparently you were already replying. Sorry for that. I very much do try to differentiate between people reasonably arguing and people just going "you wanted classic now you get classic", pretty visibily showing their disdain for the matter. There were a TON of people hating on classic, saying it will and should never happen and generally just being obnoxious assholes. If you think these obnoxious kids just went away with the announcement instead of now trying to fuck with the discussions you have a naive view of the internet.

    As for being paranoid about classic wow taking away significant ressources from live development I just don't see it happening, sorry. People are acting like classic will cost them 3 raid tiers every year but the matter of fact is that, after the initial startup, the maintenance of a static server with no new content to be added will be handleable by a somewhat small trained team. Yea, initially the training and initial setup might come at a cost but holy shit the entitlement of these buffoons thinking that they deserve that development time more than anyone else is so fundamentally selfish and arrogant. Where these guys also whining when hearthstone happened? Or Overwatch? Jesus christ Blizzard is catering to a relevant, year long demand for a product here. People need to stop trying to torpedo that like fucking 5 year olds would out of fear that mommy wont give them their precious fucking attention anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    I'm not screaming about anything, any more than the people demanding QoL or system changes are. You can scream til you're blue in the face about waiting to see what happens for that matter.
    So you feel like my opening post is childish screaming instead of me providing feedback/suggestions? Please just get out of this thread as youre obviously just here to stirr shit up with your troll attitude.

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