Sunwell Isle and 2.4 Preview, Honor calculations

[ruthven]

I think a lot of PvE players are tired of seeing their class constantly tweaked and changed to balance around arena issues and at some point they need to be willing to make abilities just work differently in PvP.

That's how it's working in Ragnarok Online and maybe other MMOs. During PvP magical damages are strongly nerfed because they deal too much damage, and an item which totally prevent spell pushback is disabled, for example. I think this trully is the solution and Blizzard should investigate this way.

[Pyrostemplar]

...
The only realistic solution is to standardize the gear you use within the arenas. Once they do that you have basically factored gear out of the question and all that is left is your team makeup and skill. This will of course, annoy a lot of people, many with good gear will be very upset to find their skill level suddenly decreased by a level playing field and of course some will be upset that they don't get to choose the exact gear they want. It does however have the big advantage that blizzard can introduce meaningful costs on arena rewards. Right now the system of arena rewards is broken because of two conflicting requirements. The gear should be hard to get since it is the reward and the gear should be easy to get because you can't compete without it. If they normalize the gear inside the arenas then the second of these requirements goes away. They can make it as hard as they want to get the arena reward gear, but the reward is to be able to use that gear outside the arenas. So when you see someone walking around in full S3 gear you will know they are a skilled arena player. It also fixes the problem of the uneven gearing speeds between PvP and PvE. Blizzard have to be aware that a lot of their players are very frustrated at the different way they hand out gear at present (players on both sides are unhappy) and a system that offers fairer arenas, more meaningful rewards to pvpers and more balanced rewards between pvp and pve would have to be good all round.

Well it may not be very constructive, but I do agree entirely with this point. I cannot see how Blizzard can make arenas competitive and, at the same time, with progressive rewards, if they do not remove outside gear and arena rewards from the arena gameplay. Additionally, the collision of a low gear difference that e-sports require with a long ladder that PVE wishes is breaking the game.

[stupid11]

WoW has a lot of problems when it comes to being accepted as a genuine eSport.

Even though blizzard can control the gear available at tournaments the fact still remains that the qualification rounds have no such fairness. Season to season the previous winners get a huge boost because they will have the best PvP gear at the start. This means that any other teams start at an inherent handicap. Take for example a game like Counterstrike, if you want to hold a counterstrike tournament you can hold a series of qualification rounds and, other than their skills all teams start out equally. Right now WoW has no method to do the same thing, nobody except blizzard can host WoW arena matches and even if they did, the teams start in an inherently unbalanced state. I am guessing Blizzard also face various liability issues even if they were willing to hold such qualification rounds since they would probably be responsible for making sure participants were of appropriate ages etc. Requirements which could vary from country to country.

For item fairness there are a couple of oft voiced complaints:
- People complain about the huge barrier to entry, starting out in arena now is a huge undertaking, huge amounts of honor to farm just to get your S1 gear to maybe be competitive, after that you need to farm honor to get the S3 gear. The best anyone can realistically hope for is that they can gear up over one season and be competitive the next.
- People complain that some of the best items are PvE items thus making them less available to PvPers

The only realistic solution is to standardize the gear you use within the arenas. Once they do that you have basically factored gear out of the question and all that is left is your team makeup and skill. This will of course, annoy a lot of people, many with good gear will be very upset to find their skill level suddenly decreased by a level playing field and of course some will be upset that they don't get to choose the exact gear they want. It does however have the big advantage that blizzard can introduce meaningful costs on arena rewards. Right now the system of arena rewards is broken because of two conflicting requirements. The gear should be hard to get since it is the reward and the gear should be easy to get because you can't compete without it. If they normalize the gear inside the arenas then the second of these requirements goes away. They can make it as hard as they want to get the arena reward gear, but the reward is to be able to use that gear outside the arenas. So when you see someone walking around in full S3 gear you will know they are a skilled arena player. It also fixes the problem of the uneven gearing speeds between PvP and PvE. Blizzard have to be aware that a lot of their players are very frustrated at the different way they hand out gear at present (players on both sides are unhappy) and a system that offers fairer arenas, more meaningful rewards to pvpers and more balanced rewards between pvp and pve would have to be good all round.

Unfortunately I see one final barrier to eSports acceptance for WoW that they can't really overcome. Trying to make an eSport out of a game with a monthly subscription will always be a fail. Many companies will be reluctant to host an event where the players need to be paying another (possibly competing) firm $180 a year in fees just to compete and I would guess they could fall afoul of gambling restrictions since if you have to pay to compete it is basically a form of gambling.

The one thing I hope it doesn't mean though is a big round of nerfs and buffs to the classes for arena balance. I think a lot of PvE players are tired of seeing their class constantly tweaked and changed to balance around arena issues and at some point they need to be willing to make abilities just work differently in PvP.

You're fucking retarded. Did you just hit 70 and find out you can't do well in arenas right away like BG's?

If you'd EVER played arena at a decent level, you'd know that EVERYONE ALREADY HAS THE GEAR once you pass about 1800-1900. Hell, people in the 1500's had full merc LAST season.

New players aren't good at arena, period. You don't automatically get gladiator cause you have all glad gear. Your "issue" is nonexistent. Every single gladiator team last season had full season 2 after about a month, and they're getting close this season too.

EVEN if you're new, just get welfare epics. Have you actually LOOKED at the gear? S1 is like... 5-10 stam worse than season THREE gear. Your stats will be MARGINALLY worse than a gladiator if you grind all the honor gear you can. Gear is NOT an issue except for scrubs who just hit 70 and don't deserve to have the gear anyway.

[Nero Duskwind]

You're fucking retarded. Did you just hit 70 and find out you can't do well in arenas right away like BG's?

If you'd EVER played arena at a decent level, you'd know that EVERYONE ALREADY HAS THE GEAR once you pass about 1800-1900. Hell, people in the 1500's had full merc LAST season.

New players aren't good at arena, period. You don't automatically get gladiator cause you have all glad gear. Your "issue" is nonexistent. Every single gladiator team last season had full season 2 after about a month, and they're getting close this season too.

EVEN if you're new, just get welfare epics. Have you actually LOOKED at the gear? S1 is like... 5-10 stam worse than season THREE gear. Your stats will be MARGINALLY worse than a gladiator if you grind all the honor gear you can. Gear is NOT an issue except for scrubs who just hit 70 and don't deserve to have the gear anyway.

His point was that with Season 1, it was easy for everyone to break into Arena and, with each subsequent season, new Arena entrants will find it incrementally more difficult to break in.

His points were valid and well constructed and, seeing as you've resorted to personal attacks, it's obvious you have no substantial rebuttal in defense of the horridly broken Arena system.

You may want to brush up on your reading comprehension skills there, bub.

[stupid11]

His point was that with Season 1, it was easy for everyone to break into Arena and, with each subsequent season, new Arena entrants will find it incrementally more difficult to break in.

His points were valid and well constructed and, seeing as you've resorted to personal attacks, it's obvious you have no substantial rebuttal in defense of the horridly broken Arena system.

You may want to brush up on your reading comprehension skills there, bub.

Ok, so it's more difficult to play at a high level of arena than it was season 1. So what? What's "difficult" about grinding honor? Go do 100 AVs, buy gear, play arenas. Simple.

Certainly it takes a while to grind out a full set, but THE GEAR IS THERE. It's not like raiding where when you hit 70 you have to work your way up with Kara, Gruuls, SSC/TK, etc before you're acceptable in a BT/Hyjal raid. You can do AV at freaking 61, or even 51 (though that would take a lot longer), and save up all the honor you need to have a full set of Gladiator/Vindicator's gear. IT'S NOT HARD.

Season 2 it was HARDER, I'd argue, cause your best set pieces and weapon from PVP were High Warlords. Now you have gladiator, which is a minor downgrade from S2, which is a minor downgrade from S3. Heck, there weren't even any RESIL changes in the new season, so your resil is just the same as a fully decked out S3 player. You're just a little weaker cause of the weapon and 5 set pieces in terms of damage/healing/weapon DPS/stam. BUT NOT ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL.

If you have the "skill" and class makeup to do well in arenas, you WILL BE FINE with S1 gear. Maybe you can't make it to Merciless Gladiator, but you sure as hell can get high rated enough that you'll start getting S3 gear once every week or two. If you lack the motivation to do BGs, or devote yourself to playing well, or using a good combination, then why should blizzard cater to your lazy ass by giving you an equal playing field with people who ARE willing to grind out honor or practice good combinations???

Maybe *you* should look beyond my first sentence, "brush up on your reading comprehension skills" and all that. I give plenty of reasons why his post was a bad idea, and more in this one. Just cause I called him stupid doesn't mean what I'm saying isn't right. Lighten up, it's the internet, every other word is "retard" or "stupid." I could argue that YOU are belittling/personally attacking me by insulting my reading skills, or calling me "bub."

And you CERTAINLY haven't provided any evidence as to why the arena system is "horribly broken" as you so put it, unlike how I have for the counter point. Just cause you SAY it's broken doesn't make it broken. The arena system is perfect, and it's obvious you have no substantial rebuttal to this idea. See, I can make shit up too and act like it's fact.

[Googolplex]

Blizzard have large plans for arena, and they will be aiming to bring it closer to e-sport acceptance.

Rofl, then I suggest they try balancing the classes a tiny bit, atm its so far from being a serious competitive game that its a joke.

[Googolplex]

You may want to brush up on your reading comprehension skills there, bub.

I lol'ed

[Obiy-21]

hi i am new
You me help :-\

[Wriot]

If you'd EVER played arena at a decent level, you'd know that EVERYONE ALREADY HAS THE GEAR once you pass about 1800-1900. Hell, people in the 1500's had full merc LAST season.

New players aren't good at arena, period. You don't automatically get gladiator cause you have all glad gear. Your "issue" is nonexistent. Every single gladiator team last season had full season 2 after about a month, and they're getting close this season too.

EVEN if you're new, just get welfare epics. Have you actually LOOKED at the gear? S1 is like... 5-10 stam worse than season THREE gear. Your stats will be MARGINALLY worse than a gladiator if you grind all the honor gear you can. Gear is NOT an issue except for scrubs who just hit 70 and don't deserve to have the gear anyway.

His point was that with Season 1, it was easy for everyone to break into Arena and, with each subsequent season, new Arena entrants will find it incrementally more difficult to break in.

His points were valid and well constructed and, seeing as you've resorted to personal attacks, it's obvious you have no substantial rebuttal in defense of the horridly broken Arena system.

Ok, so it's more difficult to play at a high level of arena than it was season 1. So what? What's "difficult" about grinding honor? Go do 100 AVs, buy gear, play arenas. Simple.

Certainly it takes a while to grind out a full set, but THE GEAR IS THERE. It's not like raiding where when you hit 70 you have to work your way up with Kara, Gruuls, SSC/TK, etc before you're acceptable in a BT/Hyjal raid. You can do AV at freaking 61, or even 51 (though that would take a lot longer), and save up all the honor you need to have a full set of Gladiator/Vindicator's gear. IT'S NOT HARD.

Season 2 it was HARDER, I'd argue, cause your best set pieces and weapon from PVP were High Warlords. Now you have gladiator, which is a minor downgrade from S2, which is a minor downgrade from S3. Heck, there weren't even any RESIL changes in the new season, so your resil is just the same as a fully decked out S3 player. You're just a little weaker cause of the weapon and 5 set pieces in terms of damage/healing/weapon DPS/stam. BUT NOT ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL.

If you have the "skill" and class makeup to do well in arenas, you WILL BE FINE with S1 gear. Maybe you can't make it to Merciless Gladiator, but you sure as hell can get high rated enough that you'll start getting S3 gear once every week or two. If you lack the motivation to do BGs, or devote yourself to playing well, or using a good combination, then why should blizzard cater to your lazy ass by giving you an equal playing field with people who ARE willing to grind out honor or practice good combinations???


And you CERTAINLY haven't provided any evidence as to why the arena system is "horribly broken" as you so put it, unlike how I have for the counter point. Just cause you SAY it's broken doesn't make it broken. The arena system is perfect, and it's obvious you have no substantial rebuttal to this idea. See, I can make shit up too and act like it's fact.

The point about the arena being broken has more to do with the exploits that exist per class. If you pvp at all you would understand that each proposed strength of each class is nothing more than an exploit of a game mechanic, he who exploits early and often wins.

The gearing speeds are all pavlovian. Pvp players would never pvp if it took them just as long as pve players to get gear. pvp is a short burst of high attention activity pve is a more gradual,longer in terms of set up/prep experience , and the battles provide nice action but if you fail it takes a while to get re-setup. That is what pve'ers enjoy the prep/atmosphere/"family-time" that those encounters offer.

Why do you think there is such a ruckus about AV? Point awarding, AFKers, strategy play, AV represents the best /worst blend of pvp and pve so it will always have the most mass appeal.

What is not being acknowledge is that there is a growing number of pve'ers that want their gear sooner......This is your point of friction. On the opposite end there is a growing number of Pvp'ers that want more distance between "new" and "veteran" players.

The only fix that has worked so far is during a tournament pre-made characters are used instead of personal characters. If you watch what happened at that last tournament (dream hack)the last two teams choose the classes with the most powerful exploits to win, not what they were used to playing at the beginning.
Consequently its E-sports that has provided a viable fix to a problem deemed by many as unfixable. Why would Blizz not want to "go with the flow".

[Azain]

His point was that with Season 1, it was easy for everyone to break into Arena and, with each subsequent season, new Arena entrants will find it incrementally more difficult to break in.

His points were valid and well constructed and, seeing as you've resorted to personal attacks, it's obvious you have no substantial rebuttal in defense of the horridly broken Arena system.

The point about the arena being broken has more to do with the exploits that exist per class. If you pvp at all you would understand that each proposed strength of each class is nothing more than an exploit of a game mechanic, he who exploits early and often wins.

The gearing speeds are all pavlovian. Pvp players would never pvp if it took them just as long as pve players to get gear. pvp is a short burst of high attention activity pve is a more gradual,longer in terms of set up/prep experience , and the battles provide nice action but if you fail it takes a while to get re-setup. That is what pve'ers enjoy the prep/atmosphere/"family-time" that those encounters offer.

Why do you think there is such a ruckus about AV? Point awarding, AFKers, strategy play, AV represents the best /worst blend of pvp and pve so it will always have the most mass appeal.

What is not being acknowledge is that there is a growing number of pve'ers that want their gear sooner......This is your point of friction. On the opposite end there is a growing number of Pvp'ers that want more distance between "new" and "veteran" players.

The only fix that has worked so far is during a tournament pre-made characters are used instead of personal characters. If you watch what happened at that last tournament (dream hack)the last two teams choose the classes with the most powerful exploits to win, not what they were used to playing at the beginning.
Consequently its E-sports that has provided a viable fix to a problem deemed by many as unfixable. Why would Blizz not want to "go with the flow".

Blizz has and always will do their own thing :P

and by exploits i think you mean abilities...are HoTs an exploit? is mana burn an exploit? the truth is if every class were balanced there would only be 1 class. yes pve'ers want gear in the same time frame as pvp'ers, and yes pvp'ers want more separation between top and bottom, will either of these happen? probably not. blizzard wants a 'reset' with each season, a fresh start where it only takes you 1 season to catch up and jump right into the mix. is this more fair to alts/rerolls/former pve'ers? sure, but at the same time it shows no loyalty outside of a netherdrake for the top .5% of legitimate teams. you could be in the duelist +50 club or whatever it is each season, yet you have the same gear as someone who has never broken 1600.

also, your 2nd sentence starts with "if you pvp at all"...wouldn't you expect someone defending the arena system as perfect to be someone who cares and probably pvps? anyway, personal attacks aside...

AV does not have the most appeal beause its a mix of strategy and pve vs pvp or whatever, it gives the most honor. if it was so appealing people wouldn't afk bot in it, they would actually play it. short of a premade in wsg/eots/ab on that particular BG's holiday weekend, AV will always offer the most honor, even in a pug. also i can show you many instances of people who have fun in BG's as friends, and many raid environments which could never be label'd as "family time"...

lastly, as a warrior my strength is MS spam, high damage with a healing debuff, this is somehow an exploit of game mechanics? please do have fun explaining that one. he who exploits early and often wins sounds like pve to me...hey let's reset rag until his sons don't spawn or stealth up the hill so the birds don't spawn (ZA) or huhuran isn't bolting as much we can win. exploits also don't fall on the classes themselves put on the players, like the mod that tells you what spec and what gear classes are using in arena, when it should be left as a surprise.