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  1. #21

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Some classes actually benifit from the Season gear over PVE Tier gear. Like the paladin retri armor, the Season gear outstood on the T4 gear.
    Making that player if he wanted to stand up greatly with T4 (raid experience) to have to double the work just to make sure he does well in a raiding instance.

    The change from PVE tokens to gain pvp armor isn't down to people can walk away with good pvp armor, it's to walk away with good armor in general. Some of that armor can buff their class in one way other another. Paladin retri S3 gloves (+5% dmg from Crusader Strike) is a great equip bonus for a PVE aswell a PVP'er.

    PVP'ers will always be standing at a higher level of a PVE player in PVP gear. If they gain their grear via tokens, the PVP player will always have that chance to work for the next Season gear and prove they are better with thier better armor.

    Guilds who sell items from PVE to any player, well it can be simple to gain the armor from buying it, but you have to work out. That the guild who is selling the items, have completed the instance, therefor put their work into wiping, clearing, working out boss encounters and to make sure they have it down 100% to sell items to un-skilled players who have alot of gold.

    You wouldn't see a guild walk into BT, and within the first week take someone who is under geared, under skilled on raiding experience with them to learn new boss wipes for them to buy their gear. They do it when the instance is known to the core.

  2. #22

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Janz
    When will full vengeful pvp'ers be able to buy tier 5-6 with arena points?

    Takes far more skill to reach that 2000 rating than farm this TBC easymode content anyway.
    so pve is easy?
    why don't you pve if you need the equip so badly?!

    I personally couldn't care less about the gladiators bullsh for pve tokens.
    ViktorVaughn - Nightelf Rogue - EU-Mal'Ganis

    D.E.H.T.A. is outside my house picnicin' 'cuz everything in my coat's been previously livin'!

  3. #23

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Windcape
    What attunements? there is no attunements in 2.4 , duuuuuuh!
    True that.
    But i'm still waiting for a refutation on all the other arguments i gave for why PvP and PvE are in different situations regarding item/rating selling.

    I'll even add one more : once a new season rolls out, i'd say it takes something like 1 or 2 weeks for the rating sellers to get what items/rating they want for themselves and then they are open for business again.
    Tell me how long it'll take for the first guilds to start selling sunwell items.

  4. #24

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    pve gear doesnt have to suck for pvp in all situations, our rogue in 3v3 is in full black temple except gloves of course because they never go for rogue first - so why not increase dps instead of survival
    Zukias (Main) (70 mage - Al'Akir) http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Al%27Akir&n=Zukias

  5. #25

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by El_Vaughn
    so pve is easy?
    why don't you pve if you need the equip so badly?!

    I personally couldn't care less about the gladiators bullsh for pve tokens.
    pve IS easy, just fighting a programmed fight is way easier than the variation you find in pvp and the reflexes and insight it requires to get good at it.

  6. #26

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dje
    True that.
    But i'm still waiting for a refutation on all the other arguments i gave for why PvP and PvE are in different situations regarding item/rating selling.

    I'll even add one more : once a new season rolls out, i'd say it takes something like 1 or 2 weeks for the rating sellers to get what items/rating they want for themselves and then they are open for business again.
    Tell me how long it'll take for the first guilds to start selling sunwell items.
    true guilds aren't selling warglaives, but i challenge you to find me the pvp/arena equivalent of warglaives.

    yes i had weapon first week and shoulders 2nd, and started boosting then. boosting early in the season sucks, it takes at least a month before 850+ pts per week becomes viable on a large scale. s3 was delayed a few weeks sure, but people were selling bears not long after if not the same time, and some t6 loot not long after.

    yes i will be selling s4 (if blizz doesn't stop boosting) before people sell sunwell items, but what is your point? if over the course of a season you get as much s4 as sunwell its just a matter of time. and again s4 isn't the same as sunwell gear for pve purposes, so buying the gear depends on what you want to do.

    i imagine buying t6 gear would be far more viable than s4 gear at 2.4 launch (and unlike t5 content, blizzard is making doing the old content more appealing, double token loots, 3 from illidan, etc etc...) and s4 would probably equate to t6 on a pve level.

    Quote Originally Posted by frosty
    pve gear doesnt have to suck for pvp in all situations, our rogue in 3v3 is in full black temple except gloves of course because they never go for rogue first - so why not increase dps instead of survival
    this is true of a fair amount of classes in higher arenas, subbing out some gear. problem is if someone is smart to spot it you die first, and die quickly. i've seen paladins with 2200 healing in arenas, and maybe against me 3v3 combo (all melee dps) that is fine, but a frost mage or warlock is going to wreck his face. pve gear isn't totally out of the question, but you certainly are rolling the dice in using it.

  7. #27

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Windcape
    What attunements? there is no attunements in 2.4 , duuuuuuh!
    and is 2.4 live? No!
    and about the attunement for MH, just buy the T5 head / chest?
    ...................../´¯/)
    ....................,/¯../
    ............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
    ........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
    ........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')

  8. #28

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Card
    pve IS easy, just fighting a programmed fight is way easier than the variation you find in pvp and the reflexes and insight it requires to get good at it.
    of course it is. coordinating 25 people is not. you can just create a team and do your 10 games and get gear. you can not just take 25 people and farm all the bosses. it requires preparation, experience, dedication.
    ViktorVaughn - Nightelf Rogue - EU-Mal'Ganis

    D.E.H.T.A. is outside my house picnicin' 'cuz everything in my coat's been previously livin'!

  9. #29

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Well, my initial point was that PvE buying is more subject to chance (no drop = come again next week) and takes longer (to establish and if you don't get the drop) than PvP buying. Which makes the copy comparison whoever it was i first replied to somewhat fragile.
    Or : PvE gear is more difficult to acquire than PvP gear anyway (be it the honest way or through buying), which doesn't make those tokens as unfair as some people seem to think.

    ZA is a bad example since it was a lower level instance compared to where the guilds instantly farming it were at. It's the T6 guilds who didn't have much else to do if they had BT on farm already and didn't care about most of the loot that did it.

    I also tend to think that buying PvP gear has more impact on what you're able to do afterwards in PvP than buying PvE gear (because you're just one out of 25 and because it's a boss in front of you), but that's not really related to the argument.

  10. #30

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    I think we have a very nice discussion here, i agree on what Dje just said. Or to sum it up abit; PvP goes way faster (assume that you have the money req. and its "mid-season").

    Like someone above here posted, PvE just takes alot more time from 25ppl than PvP takes for max 5ppl.

    We kinda got in to this PvP - PvE talk abit too much :P, but its interesting.
    I just had to start comparing getting PvP item vs getting PvE items. When to topic starter stated that PvE was easy mode.

    And for DPS'ers (had hunters in mind) s3 is pretty good for PvE since it has loads of hit and armor ignore.

    Keep this discussion goin'!

  11. #31

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dje
    You need to be attuned if it's relevant. You need to have the item actually drop once you're in there. You also won't get the item if any guild member still needs it. And you can only do one run per week.
    In PvP, there's no luck or prerequisite except having money : the rating sellers can do their thing with garanteed results within 1 week.

    Which shows that it's quite longer/harder to obtain PvE epics, even if there are more guilds selling them.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Windcape
    What attunements? there is no attunements in 2.4 , duuuuuuh!
    Doesn't change the fact that it's still easier to buy a 2k rating team compared to buying a spot in a Hyjal/BT raiding guild. Also consider the fact that not every server has guilds on farm let alone are even geared enough to go through most of the content. For example my current server only has 2 guilds in BT/Hyjal (one on each faction) and it just so happens that the Horde guild that was in BT disbanded and transferred off to another server in preperation for 2.4 and the long grind to opening each gate for SWP. Currently nobody Horde side even has a chance to buy a spot and even on the alliance side the current BT guild still hasn't cleared Hyjal or gone past the first 2 bosses in BT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leshya
    Why do PVPers need PVE gear when all they do is PVP? If they aren't in a raiding guild, then what is the point? At the very least, PVEers can PVP in off-time...the same cannot be said for PVPers!
    Excellent question. Why do they need PvE epics? To do what, farm faster? What are they farming, certainly not tons of consumables or rep. For raiding? Well if they're raiding then they'll eventually get those epics just like the rest of the raiding community. There really isn't any reason to cry about it when you won't even bother use it all the time since you'll be in BG's and arena's constantly.

  12. #32

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by El_Vaughn
    of course it is. coordinating 25 people is not. you can just create a team and do your 10 games and get gear. you can not just take 25 people and farm all the bosses. it requires preparation, experience, dedication.
    Yea, that's why I mentioned that it's the 2000+ rated full vengeful players whou should be able to buy tier stuff with the extra arenapoints they are stockpiling. If raiders can get S2 gear with extra tokens, it's just fair that PvP'rs can get tier5 or something with extra arena points when they run out of stuff to buy.

  13. #33

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Janz
    Yea, that's why I mentioned that it's the 2000+ rated full vengeful players whou should be able to buy tier stuff with the extra arenapoints they are stockpiling. If raiderwussies can get S2 gear with extra tokens, it's just fair that PvP'rs can get tier5 or something with extra arena points when they run out of stuff to buy.
    no need for random flames. perhaps something can be done about extra points. most people have their full s3 sets including shield/1h'er or an extra weapon and 5k points stocked. i dont think pve gear is the answer but perhaps vindicator's equiv pieces or trinkets would be good.

  14. #34

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Personally - I think the Arena tokens for raiding is ok. It takes alot of time and effort to be envolved in raiding content atm. And thats pretty much everything that MMOs are about. Time spent playing... Now the PVPers might say PVP is about skill. Well - some of it is. Most of it isn't. Most is down to your character ability (witch has to be blanaced), your connection (with low ping) and the gear you are already holding. Now if PVP is all about skill then giving PVErs S2 wont change much - Does it?

    The main factor in all of this that Arena gear is to easy to get. And its to higly raited as endgame items in the game. Basicly it should not even be epic - Mostly cause 2v2 content should never guaranty any epic item in the game. And it should defently never be compared to time and effort put into 25 man raiding to get endgame in PVE content. Thats why these changes were made. To lift the PVE high end gameplay to new lvl. And it was needed.

    Rewards in any MMORPG will have to take note of few basics factors; Time, effort, skill and numbers of players. These are fundementals of all mmos atm. Everything you make in the game will have to be rewarded in terms of those 4 factors. If not then you can't say the game is balanced. The game wasn't balanced in 2.3. Thats just a fact. The PVP items, even tho not as good as PVE items for PVE content were still to powerfull in terms of basic stats compared to what was awailable in 5 man PVE content. Hopefully these changes and the new 5 man instance will balance this out abit and make the PVE content actually worth doing.

    Hopefully Blizzard will take full note of PVP v PVE content unbalance that accured in TBC and fix this in WOTLK

  15. #35

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Janz
    When will full vengeful pvp'ers be able to buy tier 5-6 with arena points?

    Takes far more skill to reach that 2000 rating than farm this TBC easymode content anyway.
    lol, just no. If it's so easymode, go collect your T6.
    Quote:
    When have I eva been able to reach a mage? He just freeze me, blink, freeze himself, make big dragonhead and confuse me, blink etc etc.

  16. #36

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Janz
    Yea, that's why I mentioned that it's the 2000+ rated full vengeful players whou should be able to buy tier stuff with the extra arenapoints they are stockpiling. If raiderwussies can get S2 gear with extra tokens, it's just fair that PvP'rs can get tier5 or something with extra arena points when they run out of stuff to buy.
    The full Vengefull players already get new items on the day that new Arena season starts.

    Personally I think there should be double Arena - 1 blue set and 1 epic set. When you have full blue set you are able to compete for the epic items. You get handed out tokens to upgrade blue to epix with added stats. Tokens are given out based on raiting and how many games u play (win/loose ratio per day/week). Basicly - this would mean that to get epic items - you will need to play about 10 games per day and you get handed out tokens acording to how well you do. Ofc you will get more tokens for playing 5v5 than 2v2. This will increase the effort factor for the PVP content. And players that get full epix each season would actually be considered great players.

  17. #37

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard...PVE is easy mode? lol Go kill vashj, kael and then illidan and tell me how easy mode it is. Lets see getting 25 people to not make a mistake and kill a boss or take 2 or 3 people and play there class and beat newbs in arena lol..

    In 3v3 it took 3 days to get a 2k team, it has taken a couple months to clear SSC, TK and and now half of BT and MT.Hyjal

    I think you have it backwards...PVP is easy mode...Thats why they are called wellfare epics..

  18. #38

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by El_Vaughn
    of course it is. coordinating 25 people is not. you can just create a team and do your 10 games and get gear. you can not just take 25 people and farm all the bosses. it requires preparation, experience, dedication.
    OKAY true, 25 people that focus etc isnt easy, but finding 3 people who know there class decently and know pretty much ALL abilities of other classes and how to counter them decently is definetly as hard. "just creating a team" will end up in shit ratings and 200 points a week, same as "just taking 25 people" will suck.

  19. #39

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Card
    OKAY true, 25 people that focus etc isnt easy, but finding 3 people who know there class decently and know pretty much ALL abilities of other classes and how to counter them decently is definetly as hard.
    that's true, but still, pvp basically takes practice and everybody COULD get a good raiting. pve takes practice and 25 motivated people which are willing to farm pots etc. for progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Card
    "just creating a team" will end up in shit ratings and 200 points a week, same as "just taking 25 people" will suck.
    the point is, even if it's only 200 per week, after some time you will get a reward.. so pve players can just create their team, afk till they get the points and get a new pve item. pvp players can't do that.

    I seriously don't give a damn if pve players can get pvp gear and vice versa, all that jealousy in the wow community just sickens me. I just want to point out that you can't compare both aspects of the game.
    ViktorVaughn - Nightelf Rogue - EU-Mal'Ganis

    D.E.H.T.A. is outside my house picnicin' 'cuz everything in my coat's been previously livin'!

  20. #40

    Re: So, now that raiders are getting free s2 with tokens...

    Even 25 blue-geared people will kill Lurker after the 6 weeks it would take to get a pair of S3 gloves -.-

    My point really is that the practice required for pvp goes way further than the practice required for pve. yes, we dont have repairs or gotta farm for pots (well I do cos I raid black temple and pvp at the same time) but there is definetly the same amount of dedication required, if not more. I have spent many a night doing 80 3v3 games over 8 hours straight, a raid for us is 20h00 to 0h00 of rehearsing the same fights, progress raids where you gotta focus for a few hours and working our way to illidan.

    basically getting 25 decent people(+backup) together is the easy part, keeping them motivated is a lot harder.

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