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  1. #61

    Re: New PTR Build changes, blue posts

    You're right, druids don't need cyclone to be viable as pve healers. Nor do other healers need their defense mechanisms. It's possible to have a flawless execution where none of this stuff is useful or important.

    But I play my healer to deal with as many situations as I can. My goal is to keep the group alive as best as I can regardless of what unexpected events happen, or mistakes are made. I believe that dealing with errors is the mark of a good healer.

    As for full clear or not, a full clear is normal in a progression run, which is when you play to the fullest. Sure when we're all doing H mechanar for the 50th time for some quick badges, we don't. And I've certainly run mechanar more times for badges than I did to learn it (cold). But I don't really think quickie badge runs are really where the game shines, nor where it's interesting to discuss class abilities. You don't use most of your abiltiies because there's no need.

    Then you're making things up. I said this change will reduce the distance at which it can be cast, which reduces the TIME there is to cast it. This doesn't mean I will stand closer to the tank than before. It means that there will be less time to cast cyclone when an add is running at me. Less time means I may get hit before the spell lands. One cannot begin to cast the ability until they are in range, there are times when 20 yards may be insufficient but 30 yards are enough.

    Is this a huge change? Of course not. I said it's "unfortunate". It was an opinion made in a forum for talking about the changes that are listed.

    Cyclone allows me to cc the mob for 6 seconds while taking no damage, continuing in my healing patterns, and allows the tank those six seconds to ready a taunt or what have you. Bear lets me.. get hit.. for somewhat less damage than I would otherwise get hit. And after I get hit, if I'm still alive, I might have enough rage to do something about the situation, like bash or charge away. Sure, I can use those tools and sometimes do, but you seem to erroneously believe that I should choose to take damage as a healer when I can elect to not take damage.

    As for fear and punch having shorter range. Sure. They're also instants. Fear affects a number of nearby enemies. Fade and bubble affect the behavior of all enemies. Cyclone is spammable. Cyclone is a 1.5 second cast and only affects one target. Fade reduces the threat on the healer (temporarily). Cyclone increases the threat on the one targetted mob greatly! I don't really know what sort of threat signature bubble has, maybe someone who knows could chime in, that would be interesting!

    All this variation among the tools provided to classes is interesting. There's a lot of different limitations and options that the different classes have to work with. I dont' think "lol you don't need one of your powers" is interesting. Blizzard provided the druid class with cyclone. It's a useful tool in a wide variety of situations.

    I don't understand why you're acting as this is some kind of competition between healers. Or somehow trying to prove me wrong in some internet shouting match. Sorry, I'm not wrong. Cyclone is useful to defend myself as a healer, the distance reduction will make it slightly less useful. That's unfortunate. End of Message. If your thesis is some wankery about how druids have it "too good", I'm not interested. Or even if you're somehow just playing armchair game designer and claiming various classes don't need the abilities they have, that's not interesting to me either. I mentioned other healers for comparison because I think it's interesting to compare various healers and what tools they have for various situations, such as tank healing, group healing, panic healing, and *other forms of defense* against death.

  2. #62

    Re: New PTR Build changes, blue posts

    As can a druid in bear form. It does not need cyclone.





    a druid has to shift making them unable to cast heals, cyclone is greater than bear in a heroic when trying to stay alive from a loose mob, but why are u guys crying about cyclone in pve, if a mob is on u pop barkskin and heal urself everyone knws that, if the tank cant pick it up by then with u casting a 2sec regrowth u need to die and re think ur strat

    i play both a druid and lock, and i think that nerfing lifebloom and the pvp speed bonus is plenty to help balance the 2v2 and 3v3 bracket, i dnt think it will help much but it might a bit, the cyclone bit seems odd, if they increase the cast time or make it instant with a longer cool down it might be a bit fair, blizz is loosing it imo

    in 2v2
    pounce
    rake
    3 combo point maim
    cyclone
    cyclone
    feral charge
    bash
    is awsomeO

    if it all works 0.O

  3. #63

    Re: New PTR Build changes, blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by k8to
    You're right, druids don't need cyclone to be viable as pve healers. Nor do other healers need their defense mechanisms. It's possible to have a flawless execution where none of this stuff is useful or important.
    Exept cyclone is not the only defence druids have.

    Then you're making things up. I said this change will reduce the distance at which it can be cast, which reduces the TIME there is to cast it. This doesn't mean I will stand closer to the tank than before. It means that there will be less time to cast cyclone when an add is running at me. Less time means I may get hit before the spell lands. One cannot begin to cast the ability until they are in range, there are times when 20 yards may be insufficient but 30 yards are enough.
    As said already, then you need to work on your reaction times. Mobs do not move 20 yards in 1.4 seconds. The 10 yards extra range compared to a HoJ or psychic scream are *plenty* to compesate for the casting time if you are not sleeping.

    Cyclone allows me to cc the mob for 6 seconds while taking no damage, continuing in my healing patterns, and allows the tank those six seconds to ready a taunt or what have you. Bear lets me.. get hit.. for somewhat less damage than I would otherwise get hit. And after I get hit, if I'm still alive, I might have enough rage to do something about the situation, like bash or charge away. Sure, I can use those tools and sometimes do, but you seem to erroneously believe that I should choose to take damage as a healer when I can elect to not take damage.
    No, I am not. My point is that you can *afford* to choose to tank a mob temporarily instad of CCing it.

    It is blindingly obvious that CC a mob is the smarter and better solution. But it being better does not mean that it is *required* and that druids are without it not viable.

    Fear affects a number of nearby enemies. Fade and bubble affect the behavior of all enemies. Cyclone is spammable. Cyclone is a 1.5 second cast and only affects one target. Fade reduces the threat on the healer (temporarily). Cyclone increases the threat on the one targetted mob greatly!
    The major difference here which you fail to see is that healers work differently. Druids rely to a FAR great margin on HoTs than other healers. If a priest or pally healer has to focus on himself the tank gets no heals at all usually. A tank with a druid healer still gets heals from the HoTs even if the druid healer cannot focus on him atm.

    This is why priests and pallies (but not shamans) have superior ways of avoiding getting distracted by adds - because they need to continuously focus on their healing target a lot more than druids.

    Yes, sometimes the HoTs are not enough.
    But sometimes the HoTs are the only thing which kept the tank alive while the druid was silenced or CCed and where the tank would have died with a pally or priest healer.

    Different strengths. Different Weaknesses.

    All this variation among the tools provided to classes is interesting.
    It is. Your problem is that you completely ignore your classes strengths but only focus on the weaknesses.

    I dont' think "lol you don't need one of your powers" is interesting. Blizzard provided the druid class with cyclone.
    Blizzard are no godlike beings inable of errors. Just because they do something it does not mean it is required.

    If you think that them giving you an ability is proof enough that you need it then them reducing the power of that ability is also proof enough that druids do not need such a long range CC.

    Or are they only right in decisions which boost you?

    I don't understand why you're acting as this is some kind of competition between healers.
    You act like that. You keep trying to justify why you "need" a 30 yard cyclone as druid because of your imagined weakness compared to the other healers. Which simply isn't the case. I am simply pointing out your fallacies.

    Sorry, I'm not wrong.
    Saying so does not make it so. Statements without arguments behind them are worthless, hot air.

    Cyclone is useful to defend myself as a healer, the distance reduction will make it slightly less useful. That's unfortunate. End of Message.
    Do you need it to be viable as druid healer? No. End of message.

    I mentioned other healers for comparison because I think it's interesting to compare various healers and what tools they have for various situations, such as tank healing, group healing, panic healing, and *other forms of defense* against death.
    Exept you compare only one single part of them. Their defence against mobs. I haven't see you talking about *any* other aspect.
    The fact that druids have the greatest tools of still healing their target even if their are incapacitated in any way is something you completely ignore.

  4. #64

    Re: New PTR Build changes, blue posts

    Firstly, as a druid, I don't ignore my strengths at all. You are extrapolating all kinds of nonsense from the comment that a range reduction in cyclone is unfortunate. I'm aware of both strengths and weaknesses in all three healer classes that I play.

    The speed of mobs varies, lag varies, some have charge at x distance mehcanics. Druid healers do not wear high armor bonus items, and often cannot tank mobs even in bearform. 4 realz.

    I never said this would make druids unviable, that's an invention on your part.

    The difference of hots vs direct heals is simply when the healing lag occurs. Placing the healing lag later is sometimes beneficial, sometimes it is meaningless. A someone who has actually played both styles, the only serious difference is in silence mechanic fights, which are, agreed, foolishly easy on a druid.

    ----------

    To review, my position is: Cyclone is useful to a restoration druid. Being able to start the cast earlier is useful in some situations. That this is being changed is too bad, but not very important.

    Can you disprove that? are you trying to? Why do you care?

  5. #65

    Re: New PTR Build changes, blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by k8to
    Firstly, as a druid, I don't ignore my strengths at all. You are extrapolating all kinds of nonsense from the comment that a range reduction in cyclone is unfortunate. I'm aware of both strengths and weaknesses in all three healer classes that I play.
    Your original comment:

    "There's bearform, but then i have to stop healing, and the tank will die."

    It won't. At least not to that extend as with pallies and priests. If they stop healing the tank *really* dies because he gets zero heals. With a druid healer the tank will still get a very fair share of heals. With a shaman and earthshield, too, but shamans won't be able to heal much when they get aggro as well.

    After that you keep talking and talking about what the other healers have and druids having without spareing *one* *single* *word* about what druids *have*.

    If you know the strengths of druids you sure kept very silent about it.

    Getting aggro is not the only thing which can get wrong. Many mobs also have silence and CC abilities which are largely random. A pally or priest getting hit with those has a far, *far* greater effect than a druid getting hit by them. And thats for those the druid isn't immune too.

    The lack of defence of the druid in one area is compensated by an additional defence of the druid in another area.

    Arguing that druids "need" cyclone because certain priest and pally abilities, but ignoring the strengths druids have is nothing but an attempt of manipulation. Or you are despite your assurances clueless. What is it?

    The speed of mobs varies, lag varies, some have charge at x distance mehcanics. Druid healers do not wear high armor bonus items, and often cannot tank mobs even in bearform. 4 realz.
    Who said they could? At least longterm. But they *can* tank them for a short time, enough for the tank to pick them up. Similar like a priest can also only fade for a short time and a pally bubble for s short time.

    I never said this would make druids unviable, that's an invention on your part.
    "There's bearform, but then i have to stop healing, and the tank will die."

    Yes, that sure sounds like the description of a viable healing class.

    To review, my position is: Cyclone is useful to a restoration druid. Being able to start the cast earlier is useful in some situations. That this is being changed is too bad, but not very important.

    Can you disprove that? are you trying to? Why do you care?
    Your original post:

    "But this change is yet another example of PVP gimping PVE. As a restoration druid in 5-player content, cyclone is how i defend myself against goofs and unexpected situations. I need the distance on cast to be able to reliably target, cast, and have the spell land before i get 1-shotted."

    "Gimping PvE" and "I need the distance" do not sound "not very important". You made it sound like an essential ability of druid healers.


    As for why I am caring: I do not like manipulative argumentations. Yours, with the classic example of "lets focus on the weaknesses and ignore the strength" was one.

  6. #66

    Re: New PTR Build changes, blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Delondial
    While I'm not too pissed about the nerf, I am pissed that there is still no love given to balance despite the need, in both pvp and pve. Seems like all we get is a nerf bat. And Blizzard wonders why druids are bitter as a whole.
    Making you a bomb with 800spelldmg in healing gear with 400% armor was not enough?
    "There's a difference between us. You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom. And I go to make sure that they have it."
    - William Wallace

  7. #67

    Re: New PTR Build changes, blue posts

    Does anyone know 100% sure that the Merciless gear will be honor gear?

  8. #68

    Re: New PTR Build changes, blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodstar
    Seriously, what the hell is up with Blizzard?!? DO they just like to screw people and there characters over for no big reason!!! I have never seen so much unfair stacking of potential in one class and reduction in another as what they do... Sometimes I just consider stop playing all together.

    The fact that now there reducing the distance to use cyclone is yet another nerf of Balance (if not all) druids that makes the class harder to use. There doing the same thing to Druids that they did to Marksman hunters. While at the same time Warlocks are the most overpowered class in the game they decide to even add some abilities; Like dotting someone while they're feared and being attacked by a pet wasn't bad enough!!!

    Here's a suggestion Blizzard, wake the hell up, and stop sucking the fun out if the game. Add some abilities instead of taking them away for certain classes and don't just favor Locks (and Shamans) which happens so often.

    Seriously, Blizzard has some major fucking idiots working there!!! :-X



    Seriously i think you are retarded and really don't know what you are talking about!! Tell me when they have buffed shamans??? They keep nerfing us every patch that comes out. O shit wait they are changing our stormstrike icon dude that should overpower us big time!! Get your facts straight before you post some nonsense.


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