Would this be a good spec for MH/BT?

[Delijica]

Hi, my guild has been doing MH (4/5, Archi 22%) and BT (3/9) for a month now. Like all other mages in my guild I'm specced 2/48/11. But, after reading some tactics (mostly for Illidan) I think it would be nice to try something else and give myself more utility. That being said I have come up with this spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=oi0ic0czxIziZZVA0cs00o

The reason I have put 3/3 in Imp. Blizzard is because I think the Chill would work pretty nicely on MH trash, giving tanks more time to grab a "loose" mob and it will be really nice when we come Illidan.
With this spec I will have a lot of mana (and decent mana reg) and the spells I will be using (3xAB, Frostbolt) don't cost much and, thus, I won't have mana problems on long and exhausting fights (Azgalor e.g.).

Your points of view are more then welcome

[Delijica]

Oh and, one more thing. If you are going to suggest me some other spec, please take into consideration that I'm not looking for a "gratzme-#1ondps" spec, but for a spec that will make life for my co-raiders easier.

Utility,endurance>personal dps

[chaud]

Have a look at
http://forums.subcreation.net/viewtopic.php?id=6837 and the forum there, and
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16781-m...me_please/p46/
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16979-mage_tc_after_2_3_a/

[zelosjr]

Utility,endurance>personal dps

Wrong. As a wise man once said, "You can't justify specing for less DPS simply because you're too stupid to survive with the right spec."

[Blasfomy]

Wrong. As a wise man once said, "You can't justify specing for less DPS simply because you're too stupid to survive with the right spec."

Wrong. So Survival hunters are pointless? Ret Paladins pointless? IF you count the extra damage these classes bring to other to their own, its much more than most other classes.

[Dsswoosh]

Utility,endurance>personal dps

Raid dps > all in my opinion.

If you need to spec into extra survival talents as a dps class, you should try to develop your survival skills more.

dps dps dps = fast dead bosses.

Not really sure on mage specs, but spec whichever buffs your raid the most whilst giving you very high personal dps aswell. Yo are afterall a dps class, and if you cant bring your highest dps then your no good.

A wise man once said "dead dps = no dps" which is true, but surviving a fight with low dps is simply not good enough

edit - oh and if your trying to combine a pvp spec with a raid spec, and expect to do very well in both, dont bother. Ive found many times a spec that tries to cater for both PvP and PvE will only give you half results in each.

[harm]

chaud's links are helpful, & although mage theory-crafting tends to be iffy due to so many intangibles that simulations can't weave in, dps//dpm analysis looks mostly right. my 2 cents:

#1. the success of deep arcane//frost is contingent of the existence of another full frost mage in the raid for winter's chill debuffs. if that other mage does not exist, you will lag significantly behind cookie cutter deep fire//deep frost. ice shards + spell power means that additional 10% to crit very, very, very valuable. i'd advise against switching to it unless/until that full frost mage exists.

#2. deep arcane//frost uses frostbolt as main the nuke, with ab spam for incredible burst damage when you stack arcane power + icy veins = trinket (15 seconds of absolute amazing op-ness.) therefore, frost channeling is a basic talent that you MUST get in order to dps effectively (threat management as well as mana efficiency.)

#3. if you're 4/5 hyjal & 3/9 bt, you're looking @ a minimum of month & a half to two months until you get to illidan, where improved blizzard is a necessity. the spec you posted is an illidan kill spec only, and should not be used in any other fights because it gimps you substantively (i've already mentioned frost channeling, but dropping piercing ice also hurts you more than you think.)

#4. classic deep arcane//frost is http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=oi0Vf0czxIziZZVA0coc0o

also: deep arcane//frost is the opposite of utility: it's all about maximizing dps//dpm at the expense of utility, while leeching a debuff from a full frost mage. assuming t6 gear & identical skill, 2x deep arcane//frost + deep frost mages will always do more damage than 3 fire mages, primarily due to significantly better mana efficiency & much more effective cooldown-stacking.

in conclusion, the spec you have specifically posted is an illidan-only spec, & it's useful & maybe even necessary for guilds barely beginning to do the fight.

deep arcane//frost can be extremely effective, as long as certain conditions are met.

[Traithan]

deep arcane//frost is the opposite of utility: it's all about maximizing dps//dpm at the expense of utility, while leeching a debuff from a full frost mage. assuming t6 gear & identical skill, 2x deep arcane//frost + deep frost mages will always do more damage than 3 fire mages, primarily due to significantly better mana efficiency & much more effective cooldown-stacking.

Then you have abysmal fire mages and you need to tell them to re-roll. That is a complete lie.

#3. if you're 4/5 hyjal & 3/9 bt, you're looking @ a minimum of month & a half to two months until you get to illidan, where improved blizzard is a necessity. the spec you posted is an illidan kill spec only, and should not be used in any other fights because it gimps you substantively (i've already mentioned frost channeling, but dropping piercing ice also hurts you more than you think.)

Need Imp Blizzard? I've done Illidan plenty of times without imp blizzard and no one every dieing to Shadow Demons or Shadowfiends. Get a shaman or hunter who isn't retarded and spec a real DPS spec instead.

As for the post up top: Survival > DPS. Wrong. Any spec can survive, if you need to spec for survival, you need to learn the fights better. If everyone speced for "max survivability" you'd have shadowstep rogues and prot paladins everywhere, and you'd still be doing Curator. Now, Utility > DPS....sometimes, only if it amounts to a net gain in DPS or *extreme* other gains (IE: Keeping up Light/Wisdom/Imp Crusader at the same time).

Basically, there is no utility in that spec at all that helps do more raid DPS. Its just you being able to AB spam for big numbers when Icy Vains is up. I have no problem with deep Arcane // AM spec if you got ways to keep in mana, but Frost is like the retarded little brother of the mage tree. Its like subtley for rogues, only worth specing for PvP.

[harm]

Then you have abysmal fire mages and you need to tell them to re-roll. That is a complete lie.

so theorycrafting results, which show deep arcane//frost scaling the best through t6, are all wrong?

so are multiple wws logs comparing dps output on teron of the same mage in same gear, deep fire vs deep arcane//frost (plastique of d&t)?

on what basis do you accuse me of "lying"? i may be wrong, granted, & if you have (new) information for me to study, i'm willing to take a look--but "lol ur fire mages suck reroll lol" hardly qualifies.

my main is a rogue, but my task as officer is in large part to manage dps. i've leveled and geared two alts, mage & lock, to t4//t5 levels, so that i could understand the classes as they are played. i think i have a pretty good idea--but who knows, i just may be dreadfully wrong. if so, show me & the op how & why.

[Devin]

Wrong. As a wise man once said, "You can't justify specing for less DPS simply because you're too stupid to survive with the right spec."

most selfish e-peen statement ever.

[Deleted]

most selfish e-peen statement ever.

hmm, nah its more like the best thing ever said. Really.

[Rich]

No he is right. Smart and aware players do not have to lose their dps in order to maintain their survivability. If everyone else is doing it right in a certain spec and you can't, then something is wrong.

[Devin]

No he is right. Smart and aware players do not have to lose their dps in order to maintain their survivability. If everyone else is doing it right in a certain spec and you can't, then something is wrong.

so all of you are basically saying: "why does anyone spec prot when he could spec fury?"

[Dsswoosh]

so all of you are basically saying: "why does anyone spec prot when he could spec fury?"

Not at all.

Tanks are there to tank, and therefore spec into what gives the best survivability/tps.
Healers are there to heal, and therefore spec into what gives them best mp5/hps
DPS'ers are there to DPS, and yes you guessed it need to spec to maximise DPS.

So yeah, a dpser that specs into extra survivabilty to compensate the lack of survival skills at a cost of dps, is basically gimping the raid. Not really much more to say than that.

[Devin]

there is just one problem, he doesn't ask for added survivability but for added utility

[Delijica]

there is just one problem, he doesn't ask for added survivability but for added utility

Sigh, had to wait a long time for someone to read my post carefully.

[Devin]

Sigh, had to wait a long time for someone to read my post carefully.

well I didn't read the first answers carefully, so I thought the discussion changed to "survival"