Hunger for Blood, assassination 51 point talent.

[Difference_Engine]

Discuss it.

From what I see this talent will literally make rogues virtually impossible to kill for mages, warlocks, shadowpriests and any kind of healer. One on one situation of course, but seriously, what the fuck? Maybe I'm misunderstanding some of the wording, but it clearly says that "if a bleed or magical effect is removed, the energy cost will be returned." In addition, it has no cooldown, which means it'll simply trigger GCD.

Let me see if I've gotten this straight.. Rogues basically have a 0-energy cost spammable skill that, each time they use it, they will get a 5% damage increase, stacking upto 3 times, to a total of 15% damage increase (being quite alot when we can expect double mutilate crits upto probably like 4-5k damage in WoTLK), and if they use it when they have a magical debuff on them or a bleed (quite often both in arena and soloplay), this skill won't cost any energy to cast at all, in addition to removing the respective bleed/magic effect.

Situation: Mage kiting a rogue. The mage has a 20 yard head-start of the rogue, and with Crippling still slowing more than a deep frost mages chill effects will, the rogue will slowly catch up. And with this talent introduced, all he has to do is run towards the mage while spamclicking this skill, and eventually he will get out of the slows/snares/WC-debuffs, while the mage won't have the time to keep turning around to cast a R1 frostbolt to keep him slowed.

Someone tell me, did I miss something in that talent description, or is it really as strong as it appears to be?

Why is it that Mages are constantly whining about something while not seeing the insanely power aspects of their own character (like 2x Ice Block 30 seconds apart in an Arena)? You do realize that if a Rogue spec's this far down into the Assasination talent tree that he will not have Preparation, Deadliness (5/5 is 10% AP bonus), Sinister Calling (5/5 is 15% Agi bonus) or Shadowstep, right? You do realize that everything a Frost Mage does (even his pet) snares the Rogue, right? You do realize that the Rogue will still have to close the distance on you while your pet and yourself are pelting him with spells right? You do realize that you have Blink on a 15 second timer, right? Stop looking for ways to already try to get classes nerfed.

[Sigz]

Most of the speculation in this thread is wrong or ridiculously over exaggerated. Very few people have actually taken into account all of the new abilities and talents from every class, not just the Mutilate vs. Frost argument. Blizzard has stated time and time again this game's PvP is not balanced around duels, and rightfully so. To do so would cause vast imbalances in group PvP play, which we all know is the main focus and the system used for rewards (gear). Discussing dueling situations is useless. It all becomes moot points when you count a partner helping (Mage's Rogue partner stunning the enemy Rogue cancels all fears of this talent entirely).

The other thing many of you are doing wrong is speculating and assuming things based upon PvP in its current form, not how it'll be in WotLK. Did any of you consider that they're taking the Deadly Throw casting interrupt off of PvP set bonuses (check Throwing Specialization, Combat tree)? This would mean a Mage would only need to Blink then Poly a Mutilate Rogue (or cast any other 1.5sec spell for that matter). That is, assuming they would indeed remove the set bonus. Even then, you have to consider trinkets, the Rogue catching back up, and possibly Ice Blocking for Poly and Blink DR/CD to do it again. Still there's CloS, and Winter's Grasp, and an entire myriad of other instant GCD using abilities that will play out before one is determined the victor, especially so in a multi-person setting. The point is, there really are MANY different things that could happen, on both ends of the spectrum, and saying that one 51-point talent will instantly bring success every single time in the favor of one or the other is a ridiculous claim.

Will HfB help Mutilate Rogues? Yes of course, but so will the change to Fleet Footed and Deadly Brew. The same goes for some of the Frost talents. As well as Feral Druid and Enhancement Shamans (sweet leaping Jesus have you seen their awesome stuff?) Isn't that the point of new abilities? Blizzard has never let a spec style or ability stay in the game for very long that dramatically increases balance for one class over the other (check into the AR/Prep nerf). They'll keep things right, and with the increase in arena competition as an e-sport, they'll be forced to.

[gayforpay]

hees got a good point. any rogue speccing this far down in combat cant get to shadow step. or preperation at that.
so 1 sprint is al the rogues opponent has got to survive.
other then that it is indeed quite powerfull, thoug with the beta only just starting.
i think it will get tweaked here and there.

um its the 51 point assassination talent, not combat. and what about the 2 poisons per shiv? haha wound poison, mind numbing and crip without a weapon swap. mauauhhaha fuck resilience, rogues will rule once more.

[xano880]

Sort of off topic, but I'm just curious: anyone else find it odd that the talent tooltip for Mutilate in the WotLK talent calculator doesn't mention that it requires daggers?

Think this is just an oversight, or...?

typo,im pretty sure it is

[Zoltron_Mars]

Overpowered? I don't think so.

Those of you who are not rogues need to realize something here. A list of the abilities that you can NOT have when you DO have Hunger for Blood:

1. Preparation
2. Cheat Death
3. Shadowstep
4. Shadow Dance
5. Adrenaline Rush
6. Murder Spree

There are more, but I only listed the big ones. The point is, for you to have this talent, you're gimping yourself in other PvP areas. Prep is HUGE for PvP. Shadowstep...HUGE for PvP. Cheat Death...WAS huge for PvP but now it sucks a big fat monkey cock since the nerf to it. Shadow Dance...if nothing else would actually be a Vanish that (God forbid) actually fucking works.

AR and Murder Spree aren't a big deal for PvPers, but if you are specced that in PvP it will give you a massive burst damage, during which...if you are not CCed...you'll rip pretty much anyone to shreds.

[Evil_BunnySanta]

Just imagine it: woltk 2v2---> hunter(B.M.), warr(arms) vs. rogue(with the spec in question 51assass.), shaman(ench.)

Arena starts both teams run out to field (for this example I'm using Nagrad arena). Shaman heads straight to hunter, warrior charges, shaman frost shocks and pops Earthbind totem, rogue is still stealthy. Hunter pops intimidation stuns shaman but is still slowed down from totem. Shaman pops Feral Spirit(that thing with the wolf adds), they attack hunter. Hunter puts frost trap; spirits, shaman, and rogue(who is still stealthed) is slowed. warrior starts beating the shaman...hard. Rogue approaches hunter, hunter feign death and rogue cheap shots the warrior instead. Rogue runs out of frost trap range and sprints. Hunter tosses concussive shot at shaman, warrior recovers from cheap shot and pursues rogue, rogue vanishes. Warrior switches to Zerker stance and intercepts shaman, Hunter pops aspect of the pack and runs from shaman. Rogue cheap shots hunter and spams mutilate. Hunter is affected crippling poison and takes heavy damage. Warrior hamstrings shaman, switches to Defensive stance, intervenes over to hunter, pops Bloodrage then Intimidating Shout. Rogue gets fear, while shaman heals himself back to full hp. Rogue pops pvp trinket, warrior switches to Zerker stance but intercept is still on CD so switches back to Battle stance. Shaman Frost shocks hunter, hunter's pet charges shaman. Shaman resists charge. Warrior changes his attention to shaman. Now both rogue and shaman are within range of Hunter, rogue spams mutilate and shaman storm strikes. All the while warrior and hunter's pet are on Shaman. Consequence, both shaman and hunter dies. Rogue still at 100%, Warrior at around 80%. Rogue mutilates while running around the warrior. Warrior uses Demoralizing shout and attempts hamstring. Now rogue is slowed down, warrior uses Battle shout and inflicts heavy damage. Rogue blinds and bandages, Warrior gets healed from second wind and doesn't use pvp trinket for later use. Rogue goes back into stealth and moves away from warrior. Warrior starts running around spamming Demoralizing shout. Warrior has no more rage and pops Bloodrage again. Rogue changes poisons, now has Deadly and Wound (speced into Deadly Brew the rogue has a 100% chance that Wound poison also applies Crippling poison). SO, now rogue garrotes, spams mutilate, both poisons apply along with crippling, 5 combo points, rupture, warrior uses Demoralizing shout, rogue uses slice 'n dice, eviscerates and reapplies slice 'n dice, and Dismantles. Now the warrior, in desperation, pops pvp trinket to get out of crippling poison. It reapplies. The warrior is able to use commanding shout switch to Defensive stance and pop shield block. But rogue spams mutilate and takes the advantage that the warrior is down to 1her and shield, pops evasion and spams mutilate some more. Warrior dies.

Of course this situation could go differently depending on the race of the classes and skill level of the players. But the point I'm trying to make is that Mutilate should be limited to daggers, because if not then every rogue will walk around duel wielding slow 1hers. Even if that doesn't sound so smart the damage one would do would be insane. I just didn't add Hunger For Blood in this example but cause, depending of it's popularity post WotLK, no one would want to dot up a rogue.

Now on the other hand Hunger For Blood is kinda like a The Beast Within and Siphon Life mixed. But instead of returning health it returns energy. All at the cost of losing a Blade Flurry and or Preparation.

[jizzyburnizzy]

neither of those comps are ever played so i think that whole post was worthless. thats the great thing about pvp anyway, its unpredictable. as you said, it can definately go differently

[gayforpay]

Overpowered? I don't think so.

Those of you who are not rogues need to realize something here. A list of the abilities that you can NOT have when you DO have Hunger for Blood:

1. Preparation
2. Cheat Death
3. Shadowstep
4. Shadow Dance
5. Adrenaline Rush
6. Murder Spree

There are more, but I only listed the big ones. The point is, for you to have this talent, you're gimping yourself in other PvP areas. Prep is HUGE for PvP. Shadowstep...HUGE for PvP. Cheat Death...WAS huge for PvP but now it sucks a big fat monkey cock since the nerf to it. Shadow Dance...if nothing else would actually be a Vanish that (God forbid) actually fucking works.

AR and Murder Spree aren't a big deal for PvPers, but if you are specced that in PvP it will give you a massive burst damage, during which...if you are not CCed...you'll rip pretty much anyone to shreds.

rogues dont have all those abilities all at once anyway. opportunity cost of always having an escape plan to restealth is huge, over burst damge. 5 seconds is all it takes to get outa combat, and with HFB it will be easier to do that. assassination lacks survival, hunger for blood adds survival. shadow dance will add burst to sub, givin u have a good dagger to ambush. alalalallalalalal 8) sunglasses again

[Shjade]

Just imagine it: woltk 2v2---> hunter(B.M.), warr(arms) vs. rogue(with the spec in question 51assass.), shaman(ench.)

Arena starts both teams run out to field (for this example I'm using Nagrad arena). Shaman heads straight to hunter, warrior charges, shaman frost shocks and pops Earthbind totem, rogue is still stealthy. Hunter pops intimidation stuns shaman but is still slowed down from totem. Shaman pops Feral Spirit(that thing with the wolf adds), they attack hunter. Hunter puts frost trap; spirits, shaman, and rogue(who is still stealthed) is slowed. warrior starts beating the shaman...hard. Rogue approaches hunter, hunter feign death and rogue cheap shots the warrior instead. Rogue runs out of frost trap range and sprints. Hunter tosses concussive shot at shaman, warrior recovers from cheap shot and pursues rogue, rogue vanishes. Warrior switches to Zerker stance and intercepts shaman, Hunter pops aspect of the pack and runs from shaman. Rogue cheap shots hunter and spams mutilate. Hunter is affected crippling poison and takes heavy damage. Warrior hamstrings shaman, switches to Defensive stance, intervenes over to hunter, pops Bloodrage then Intimidating Shout. Rogue gets fear, while shaman heals himself back to full hp. Rogue pops pvp trinket, warrior switches to Zerker stance but intercept is still on CD so switches back to Battle stance. Shaman Frost shocks hunter, hunter's pet charges shaman. Shaman resists charge. Warrior changes his attention to shaman. Now both rogue and shaman are within range of Hunter, rogue spams mutilate and shaman storm strikes. All the while warrior and hunter's pet are on Shaman. Consequence, both shaman and hunter dies. Rogue still at 100%, Warrior at around 80%. Rogue mutilates while running around the warrior. Warrior uses Demoralizing shout and attempts hamstring. Now rogue is slowed down, warrior uses Battle shout and inflicts heavy damage. Rogue blinds and bandages, Warrior gets healed from second wind and doesn't use pvp trinket for later use. Rogue goes back into stealth and moves away from warrior. Warrior starts running around spamming Demoralizing shout. Warrior has no more rage and pops Bloodrage again. Rogue changes poisons, now has Deadly and Wound (speced into Deadly Brew the rogue has a 100% chance that Wound poison also applies Crippling poison). SO, now rogue garrotes, spams mutilate, both poisons apply along with crippling, 5 combo points, rupture, warrior uses Demoralizing shout, rogue uses slice 'n dice, eviscerates and reapplies slice 'n dice, and Dismantles. Now the warrior, in desperation, pops pvp trinket to get out of crippling poison. It reapplies. The warrior is able to use commanding shout switch to Defensive stance and pop shield block. But rogue spams mutilate and takes the advantage that the warrior is down to 1her and shield, pops evasion and spams mutilate some more. Warrior dies.

Of course this situation could go differently depending on the race of the classes and skill level of the players. But the point I'm trying to make is that Mutilate should be limited to daggers, because if not then every rogue will walk around duel wielding slow 1hers. Even if that doesn't sound so smart the damage one would do would be insane. I just didn't add Hunger For Blood in this example but cause, depending of it's popularity post WotLK, no one would want to dot up a rogue.

Now on the other hand Hunger For Blood is kinda like a The Beast Within and Siphon Life mixed. But instead of returning health it returns energy. All at the cost of losing a Blade Flurry and or Preparation.

Unless I'm not seeing it, you just presented an entire theoretical arena battle involving a BM hunter in which said hunter NEVER POPS BESTIAL WRATH.

Fail hypothetical is fail.

[arenascrub]

But rogue spams mutilate and takes the advantage that the warrior is down to 1her and shield, pops evasion and spams mutilate some more.

You crank me up little buddy. How on earth can someone spam an ability that costs half his energy bar? Υou monster of knowledge, you poor warrior that mutilate rogues rape you. Is this a joke or something? Hamstring more? Though with HfB in Nagrand pillar dancing againts warriors will reach a whole new level and it was about damn time. Shiv, HfB (to remove bleeds) restealth, repeat, profit?

[Catra]

I think that the feasibility of so many rogues getting this because of how (supposedly) OP this is, depends on the rest of the talents. Sub has Shadowstep to catch runners, combat has improved sprint, and all Assassin had was fleet footed...a passive 15% run speed increase with snare resistance (in TBC). In short, Assassin rogues were pretty much boned against runners. Of course there is the classic shiv+crip poison routine, but more often than not, my crip poison gets dispelled by someone. This talent, assuming a full 51 assassin spec, would balance out the mobility issues between the talent trees. Being 51 assassin spec would also rule out shadowstep, premed/prep, and well...more

However, being so early, even if HFB doesn't change, many other talents quite possibly will. Turn the tables has reared it's head a few times. What if it only works for party members in 30 yards? The vast majority of the time in AB or EotS or wherever, I'm usually not with my group (just doing random BG's, not premades) so that would be useless. What if deadly brew get's changed so that there is only a percentage chance that the second poison would be applied. Yes, still an incredibly useful talent, but could be dramatically hindered.

On the otherhand, what if Mutilate no longer requires daggers and you can use it with swords or maces or fists? I can only image a double crit using something like the twin Vanir's fists of savagery. An opener like that, especially a crit/double crit, there would be a lot less reliance on running down the enemy (if they are even still alive by some miracle) and focusing on the opener to nail them with poisons to keep them in range to drop them before we have a need to use it.

With it being so early in the Beta, I wouldn't hold too much stock in all of these talents and builds now, there is no way this is the final result. I'll admit, I'm not a Mutilate rogue, I'm a hybrid (34/3/24) and I have surprised many people on how well it performs for me because it suits my gameplay. To think that every person can use the same spec and everyone will perform the same is just wrong. I can speculate a couple different cookie cutter builds down the road, I still think that trying some rather unorthodox specs can perform better than some might think.