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  1. #21

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by StormScion
    15% intelect from divine intelect = increse.
    If we have no intellect on our gear, that talent will do precisely jack shit.

  2. #22

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by kraeden
    If we have no intellect on our gear, that talent will do precisely jack shit.
    Holy paladins will have same gear they have now. Retribtion paladins and Prot paladins are swaping gear but not Holy paladins ... only change they will have is spell power instead of healing and hit instead of spell hit.

  3. #23

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by StormScion
    Holy paladins will have same gear they have now. Retribtion paladins and Prot paladins are swaping gear but not Holy paladins ... only change they will have is spell power instead of healing and hit instead of spell hit.
    I am not talking about holy paladins, obviously.

    Why do people keep throwing useless facts at me that have nothing to do with my post?

  4. #24

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by kraeden
    I am not talking about holy paladins, obviously.

    Why do people keep throwing useless facts at me that have nothing to do with my post?
    Why do you want an increased mana pool as ret anyway?

    I am fully aware of how nice an extra 1.5-2k mana is on my pala, but that's mainly cause we have no way to sustain in long fights, like shaman. However with the changes and buffs to some skills/talents, I really can't see mana being much of an issue.

  5. #25

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg
    Why do you want an increased mana pool as ret anyway?

    I am fully aware of how nice an extra 1.5-2k mana is on my pala, but that's mainly cause we have no way to sustain in long fights, like shaman. However with the changes and buffs to some skills/talents, I really can't see mana being much of an issue.
    All I am saying is that Blizzard SAID we would be getting one that gave +mana based on a ret stat like AP, in order to compensate for the fact that our gear would no longer have an intellect on it.

    Think about that, we will have less mana (relatively) than we do now... intellect is being removed from the gear. And they said they would compensate. So far, they havn't really... yeah the regen from JoTW is nice but it doesnt adress the mana pool that will be depleted in 2 holy lights. And you know they do want us healing sometimes, its not just me, because of Sheath of Light. I just want a talent that leaves the mana pool at least as big as it is now without the need for +int.

    Which, again, we were told was coming.

  6. #26

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by olicon
    Warlocks have a raid mana regen talent now? Sweet! I'll definitely have to check it out later.
    "Demonic Aegis Rank 3

    Increases the effectiveness of your Demon Armor and Fel Armor spells by 30%."

    "Fel Armor Rank 4
    Surrounds the caster with fel energy, increasing spell power by 180 plus additional spell power equal to 30% of your Spirit. In addition, allows 30% of your mana regeneration to continue while casting."

    So untalented, only 30% of mana regen in effect. Talented is really good. 234 spell power plus 39% of spirit and 39% mana regen.

  7. #27

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maker
    "Demonic Aegis Rank 3

    Increases the effectiveness of your Demon Armor and Fel Armor spells by 30%."

    "Fel Armor Rank 4
    Surrounds the caster with fel energy, increasing spell power by 180 plus additional spell power equal to 30% of your Spirit. In addition, allows 30% of your mana regeneration to continue while casting."

    So untalented, only 30% of mana regen in effect. Talented is really good. 234 spell power plus 39% of spirit and 39% mana regen.
    Pretty sure he is refering to the imp soul leech effect in the destro tree.


    As for the new judgement of the wise talent:
    Will have to wait and see how well the new talent scales. But judging from the tooltip it takes 60% of the damage done and converts it into mana that then gets split up and sent to up to 3 other members of the raid. Not trying to sound greedy, but im pretty sure the Ret paladin would benefit alot more from it if he could get it all himself. As it is now i doubt that ret pallies will have an abundance of mana
    (This signature was removed for violation of the Avatar & Signature Guidelines)

  8. #28

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by kraeden
    All I am saying is that Blizzard SAID we would be getting one that gave +mana based on a ret stat like AP, in order to compensate for the fact that our gear would no longer have an intellect on it.

    Think about that, we will have less mana (relatively) than we do now... intellect is being removed from the gear. And they said they would compensate. So far, they havn't really... yeah the regen from JoTW is nice but it doesnt adress the mana pool that will be depleted in 2 holy lights. And you know they do want us healing sometimes, its not just me, because of Sheath of Light. I just want a talent that leaves the mana pool at least as big as it is now without the need for +int.

    Which, again, we were told was coming.
    How exactly did blizzard word the + mana thing? They can be sneaky devils when it comes to things like this. We have been given a HUGE buff when it comes to generating mana.

    We probably wont run out of mana, in fact we will most likely have a surplus of it, if we are getting the mana back from the judges.

    Someone somewhere said it gives the mana to those who need it most, IE those who have the least mana, not % wise, but amount wise.

    The lower total mana pool we have, the higher the chance is that we get the mana back, this I like.

    What mana costs does ret have, if we're talking dpsing a boss or such? Divine Storm every 10 seconds, Crusader strike every 6 and using a seal every 30 seconds. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that it now? and wings every 2 mins.

    Baring in mind we are getting a lot of mana back from having wisdom on the target, that could possibly be enough to sustain our dps. Then there's the judgements. 60% of the damage done = mana returned.

    Blood currently judges for 310 damage. Lets assume 3k attack power. You'd have 900 spell power. Blood gets 43% of that as damage = 697 damage. Assume 15% from vengeance and we're up at 800 damage. We can then add in another 3% damage from crusade and 2% damage from retri aura. Bringing the total up to 842 damage.

    We get 25% additional crit on judged seals from fanaticism, 5% crit from conviction, 3% from sanctified seals and 3% from wisdom on the target, bringing us up to a base of 36% crit. With crit rating now boosting both melee and spells, ~50% crit isn't unrealistic on the judges. Don't forget we get 15% extra crit damage on top of that AND a 15% chance after a crusader strike to deal double damage with a judge.

    I'm not going to average the damage we will do with a judge but saying around 1400 isn't unrealistic either. This generates 840 mana.

    Holy light currently on a pala costs 840 mana healing us for about 3000. Giving 3.5 mana per heal.

    The last rank costs 1880 giving 5150 average = 2.7 healing per mana.

    Now however we are getting 900 spell power. We could be getting 1200 of this added onto the holy light giving us now a heal per mana of 3.4. Get more attack power get more healing done, heal yourself when you've got AP trinkets proccing and get more efficiency.

    This in no way is counting sheath of lights healing bonus. Remember all our crit = spell crit too. 5% from conviction 3% from sanctified seals gives us a base line crit chance with spells of 8%, my pala now naked gets 4.4% crit from his int bringing out crit chance up to 12% base. Providing all the additional crit you get from gear is crit rating and not agility, we could be up at 25% chance to crit with spells.

    If one in 4 of our holy lights crit this brings the amount healed by 4 holy lights, providing no over heal, up to 29210. Bringing the heal per mana up to 3.9.

    This is clearly better then we have it now, we just can't spam the heal like we can at the moment.

    Not to mention we don't have any idea how they are folding blessing of light into our current healing, it's certainly not a holy only thing, so we could see an even bigger improvement.

    All in all the heal/mana ratio probably wont change by that much depending on your gear level. Yet the mana you will be getting back probably allows you to heal FAR more often then you ever did before.

    Sure you cannot spam 4-6 holy lights, but now, if you do spam the only thing you can do after is pot, then be oom again. In Lich King you can toss a heal, regen the mana lost, toss another, regen the mana lost and toss another.

    The main problem here isn't concerning our mana pools, they should be fine with the new regen, nor the heal itself, that's fine too. The problem is with the cost on the heals. People are up in arms about this as it destroys what the paladin healer is all about. However I cannot see blizzard ruining the paladin, nor the shammy, who is in the same boat as us.

    Before coming to any rash conclusions, we need more information about how the coefficients will work on our heals.

  9. #29

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    I dont think mana in PvE will be a problem, its in PvP where you have to bubble and do 3 holy lights in a row that I;m worried about. right now, that drains just about all of my mana, and thats with +181 intellect on my gear that wont exist at level 80.

    I dont remember their wording, and I guess they were probably referring to JoTW and Sheath of Light. Who knows, maybe it will be okay, but I just can't imagine having no +int gear and still being able to heal more than a couple times without being a useless auto attack bot.

  10. #30

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Leave paladins mana alone you sneaky hunters and priests.

  11. #31
    Khody
    Guest

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by kilssii
    Leave paladins mana alone you sneaky hunters and priests.
    Ya! Jerks!

  12. #32

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Mana drain = /cry !

    Pillar humping and Cleansing helps but still,

    Mana drain = /cry !



  13. #33

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Unfortunately, even though our PvE mana issues will more or less be solved, this doesnt prevent drain spam in PvP in the slightest. If you're oom, then you cant really cast a seal + judge right away, so while you watch that mp5 tick away, they just cast another mana burn! >.<

    I roll both an Enhancement shaman (Though I'm currently elemental just to spice things up a bit) and a Paladin (I play two of them and play all specs frequently.) I would not be offended from a Shaman point of view, and would be extremely satisfied from a Paladin poiny of view, if Sanctified Wrath had the following effect...

    "Attacks made while under the effects of Avenging Wrath have a chance restore mana equal to 10/20% of your attack power."

    The reason I made the % lower is to take into account that A) Avenging Wrath lasts longer, and B) We have judgements of the Wise.

    Is this request a little too much? Maybe. But this would help our PvP drainage problem, even if my shaman brothers would cry for blood.

    /Waiting on flames.

  14. #34

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    avenging wrath -> poff dispell in 2sec

  15. #35

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by kilssii
    avenging wrath -> poff dispell in 2sec
    Probably, but if that wasn't possible then it would just be silly. Lol

    There is a time and place for everything, Avenging Wrath's time is when that pesky priest has been stunned so you can get some of the mana he burned.

  16. #36

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    Lol seal of wisdom ? Come on man. For my Warlock or Mage that is in a raid I'm happy when a paladins puts it up so i can just wand it out a few while watching my threat however for a paladin to use this seal in pvp for himself it totally garbage with a 2her. You need to /macro a 2her to 1her macro to a fast 1her to get any mana back that would be enough for a Fol and even so Fol sucks for Ret paladins. On a class like a druid or a Warrior it's ok and all fine and dandy. On a Priest that can just dispel it off ..... Not going to happen bro sorry and if you think BOW will make an impact got news for you. They will just remove that as well. When you are fighting a Priest when you are a paladin you are relaying on the roll of the dice with soc with zero buffs and cs.

    Blizzard fixed our pve problems. As for pvp .... It's still borderline.
    If you had actually read my previous quote I was semi jokingly saying Sanctified Wrath should give us a Shamanistic Rage effect. Also, my misinformed friend, you obviously havent heard the latest notes on Seal/ Judgement of wisdom. It now scales with attack speed. Therefore, slow attack speed will equally benefit from fast attack speed. Although this has nothing to do with what I was talking about, I felt the need to tell you.

    My point was that we would able to have controled burst mana regen if Sanctified Wrath gave our melee attacks a chance to regenerate mana equal to 10%/20% of our attack power. A smart pvper would Repentance waste the Priests Trinket, stun and use Avenging Wrath for regen if they really needed mana. Every little step for anti burn helps.

  17. #37

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    He's not saying Sanctified Wrath does that, he's saying it would be nice if it did.

    I say, Make Avenging Wrath a Physical Buff, they did to every other damn class-self Buff in the game (Shamanistic Rage, Fel Armor, Demon Skin, the Mage Armors)

  18. #38

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    You think Ret paladins will not be have accouple of sockets of spell power with str ? Interesting,
    You have to keep in mind now Ret will have a crap load of crit % i highly doubt we will need to stack any agi now.
    That leaves us open with 1 or 2 more places for a stats. You want int that does nothing really for the Ret tree or Spell Power that has 3 spells now that work off it ?

    We are going back to pre-bc when it comes to Spell Power, The only difference is Spell Power is 10X better then old Spell damage.

    Soc and Joc are going to rock hard with Cs being just as strong as it is. We get Mana return from SoW for ret. It's not all that much but it helps.

    As for Increasing our mana pool. I haven't seen Blizzard really addressing this with any new change they have done to our class or the game.

    In pve it's not that much of a problem the way it is now as for pvp it's a huge problem.

    I'm happy we got Sheath of Light and ill be happy with only that till i see my Ret Paladins at 80.
    Yes just even now u dont realy need to stack agility crit rating is way to go , but mostily best stats will be strenght for both pvp and pve , ofc in pvp u will allways want a bit more crit thne in pve couse in pve strenght is everything

  19. #39

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    Stop making up stuff Sanctified Wrath doesn't do that. It would be nice to have that there as well but i don't want to give up my 50% crit to How or my armor pen when im effected with AW. The Cooldown can go for that stat tho.

    Second are you saying when AW is active you would get the effect of 20% mana regen ?
    Lol, yet again you didn't even read my post. I was saying ... ugh never mind. Just scroll up. It would simply be for controllable mana regen for arena. And, I specifically said I knew it wouldnt happpen because Shamans would get angry.


  20. #40

    Re: Wheres the mana talent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    I know he is i just don't get having aw give us mana back when used. It frankly don't make seance why it would. Not saying it wouldn't be nice but the change to having 20% more to healing imo is nicer. I like his idea however why not just place it in with Sheath of light to be static like everything else in the ret tree ? You are also right about Aw being made a Physical buff. If other classes have tools to scare the crap out of me with shouldn't i have the same ?

    After looking at some of the Dps plate for Wotlk and the epic sockets like
    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...lcraft_178.jpg
    and
    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...lcraft_188.jpg

    I wouldn't worry at all about crit come wotlk for pvp, it there and we will benefit from it being there with spell power a great deal.




    lol again ? Are you saying you made up the seal of wisdom thing in the other thread ? Seriously i was just joking with you in this one about you making up stuff. Even though it would be nice i just don't see it happening for us.
    Lol, I know it doesn't make sense, I wasn't being all that serious.

    On another note, every Paladin wants this ability to be a physical buff, I would like it, too. But I'm not sure I can find the logic behind it being physical. It seems silly and trivial but we have always been about magic. I wouldn't complain if it was changed to phyisical, but from a logic/lore stand point, I'd prefer if it was just undispellable.



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