Retribution Paladins actually becoming emergency off tanks?

[Samiel]

Well, D'uh, obviously, but the people who are dedicated, and want to play one, will be there with everyone else at 80th, you know they will, don't even try to pretend you don't know you're just trying to make excuses now

[myarluu]

Well, D'uh, obviously, but the people who are dedicated, and want to play one, will be there with everyone else at 80th, you know they will, don't even try to pretend you don't know you're just trying to make excuses now

shush.
don't rain on my parade.
you'll spoil the cake D:

[Samiel]

I remember rolling my first character in WoW, it was the tail end of September 2005, and during the WoW Beta, it was a Paladin. Now, I didn't roll a Paladin because I wanted to play a hybrid, or because I liked big hammers or plate, I rolled one, because I always play Paladins in MMO's, and because the Paladins in Warcraft lore, always had interested me in the past. I played him during beta, and it was, well, for lack of a better term, boring as feck, sure, we had strikes, sure, we had our seals (which didn't work like seals, but like blessings.) and aura's (which sucked) but all we did was auto-attack and once in a while stun or strike. (Basically what we do now, just more boring.) Blizzard realized this, and shortly before release (oddly enough, coupled with talents being introduced) changed our paladin to what he is today.

Now, you are misreading what I am saying, and trying to make it seem like I'm wanting to pigeonhole the Paladin into a role at all times. I'm not, I remember the days of having to stand in MC spamming cleanse for three or four hours, (I was Ret Back then too, simply put on healing gear, and presto!) or being excluded from everything because I wasn't holy specced, but hey! Who cared, I had fun in PvP, right? Yup, I sure did.

Blizzard stepped in, 1.09 hit, and many changes ensued until BC came, when finally, it seemed blizzard were starting to go in the right direction, they made Prot (My other love, and what my other Paladin is specced) a viable spec, through tanking tools, itemization and mutli-tanking became where the Paladin shone. Ret, started out weak in BC but I was lucky enough to get to raid as ret, and have certainly enjoyed watching my DPS and raid viability change, at the cost of some of my Hybrid Utility, mainly at the cost of being able to do *anything* other than DPS, with the shift in itemization.

Holy has slowly been weakened throughout BC, to where it is now, in WotL on Par with both Prot and Ret, as far as raid viability goes, though we all know that Healers and Tanks are a more wanted commodity than DPS, Ret is still very viable.

However, this thread started out as a discussion about emergency off-tank viability of Ret, and though ret has been given some of his Hybrid Utility Back (He has +Spellpower which = better healing) to be what you are wanting, a ret paladin would have to talent spec, into Prot and ret, making himself a hybrid spec, *or* god forbid, put on some tanking gear before the fight, and tank, something that right now is doable, "in an emergency" in all tiers of the game, in current BC WoW (atleast I know I've smacked on tanking gear, and helped tank trash as ret, thus giving me a hybrid role.)

It comes down to the simple fact, that your idea of a hybrid and blizzards idea of a hybrid is not the same. Your idea seems to be, a hybrid is someone who can do several things at once, without any need for adjustment (equipping a shield and sword, vs a 2H isn't really an adjustment.). Blizzards is someone who can do several things, with few adjustments. (Changing their gear, to suit the role they are filling, without having to respec.)

Take the Paladin, since that is what we both can relate to. No matter what spec he is in WotL he will be a healer and a defensive tank with the capability of doing damage, a ret paladin in full ret gear, will be a DPS class, who has the possibility to assist with healing in an emergency (LoH, HL, FoL, BoSac), and he will, with a simple gear change (Putting on enough tanking gear, to get worthwhile avoidances.) be able to off-tank in more or less any situation. (Something he can already do in BC with the right gear.)

Prot Paladins, once again, they choose a role they excel in, Tanking, Multi-mob tanking, and while they excel there, they will still be able to perform as emergency healers using the same tools as retribution, and with a simple gear change be able to offer some DPS.

Holy Paladins, have chosen to excel in Healing, and do so compared to the other specs, they can, like Ret, smack on some tanking gear, and perform amicably (though, not as well as Ret) as tanks, and while still *in* their holy gear, they can choose to forgo healing to offer some, though maybe not sustainable, rather impressive burst capabilities, *especially* with the change to Holy Shock.

Where is it in this, that we are not hybrids?

That does not however mean that Paladins should be *as* good at Performing a specialized role as a specialized class who is not a hybrid, AND good at two other roles, without any need for adjustments. Paladins are not a jack of all trades, they are a hybrid, and can, in WotL, truly call themselves such, not by being able to be superb at one thing and good at all their other roles, but by having the choice, to specialize in a role, while still with changes to gear, or playstyle, be able to perform other roles.

I personally would love to be able to DPS as well as any DPS class, and just be able to smack on a shield, and tank that mob that just took down the main tank, or heck, stop DPS'ing and heal, however, Paladins can't do that, and that's fine. But that doesn't mean we are not a hybrid, it just means we're not God.

TLDV : Lots of Nostalgic blather, followed by, We are Hybrids now, we will be in WotL with the same restriction all hybrids have, to specialize is to give up part of our hybrid utility, but not all, simply means that to perform *some* hybrid roles (tanking in the case of Holy/Ret, DPS'ing in the case of prot.) requires a change of gear, and is thus not something we can do if all hell breaks out and tanks go down. We will however still be able to perform one other role in an emergency situation and hell breaks out, without any need for gear changes.

[Moar Pew Pew]

We will however still be able to perform one other role in an emergency situation and hell breaks out, without any need for gear changes.

This was really all I was saying. Now we will simply be able to hold aggro better with some more mitigation as Ret, even without a gear change. Yes, we could always tank trash as Ret with a gear change, I'm simply saying that in oh crap moments, we will most likely be bringing more to the table than before.

Also, Holy is still as viable and wanted as any other healing class, we dont perform less than others. All tanks will have no aggro issues in wotlk, so I dont see us being not equal there, and Ret is recieving many general buffs to increase our damage and utility. I dont feel that blizzard wants to punish us for being hybrids anymore. Maybe Kalgan got fired or something?

[Samiel]

Not as a Tank Moar, Ret will be able to Emergency Heal, without the need for a gear Change, not Tank.

[Moar Pew Pew]

Not as a Tank Moar, Ret will be able to Emergency Heal, without the need for a gear Change, not Tank.

Not really. If we look at all the changes, you can see them shifting us to be able to tank in Ret gear for a short time. Yes, crap mitigation blah blah, this will always be the case. But just look at how some of our attack mehcanics work and you can see that many of our talented attacks, and new trainable attacks, would allow us to tank less difficult encounters. Even our 51 talent deals AoE Holy damage that provides mitigation. Then of course there is Board of the Righteous, which is directly benefits from our high strength. Just saying this may be the direction, so lets all just try to get off our high horses and try to be optimistic for once, instead of thinking we always know exactly what Blizz will do all the time for everything. I can accept I might be wrong, just giving some facts as to why this may end up being true.

Edit:

Fixed a few glaring grammar and spelling mistakes.

[Samiel]

No, you're mixing up what will make or break tanks in WotL it wont be mitigation, it will be avoidance. Our new shiny Block Value is *useless* in ret gear, because we will only have a 5% chance to actually block the attack, a 5% Chance to parry and a 5% chance to dodge, base, before taking into account our Defense Value and the Mobs Level, and the mob being able to crit the Ret Paladin, because there is no way in hell a Ret paladin in ret gear, will have the nescesarry Defense to push crit off the hit table.

Smacking on a shield, is not what makes you a tank, being able to generate threat is not what makes you a tank, hell, even having a high mitigation isn't what makes you a tank.

What makes you a tank, is your ability to combine threat generation, High Hitpoint, High Mitigation, and High Avoidance, in a way that a healer has enough time to get his heal off before the mob kills you.

In WotL A Ret paladin will *NOT* have those tools, in Retribution Gear. He will have to switch to tanking gear, thus, being unable to tank in an "emergency" situation. But they will be able to give some emergency healing, which means they will be hybrids for emergencies, as many have wanted and hoped for, in addition to their specialized role, without having to change gear. But they will *NOT* be able to grab that boss for the last 10% if the tank goes down, they would be better off letting the Feral Druid grab the boss, and try to keep him alive through healing, or continue DPS'ing.

[Moar Pew Pew]

No, you're mixing up what will make or break tanks in WotL it wont be mitigation, it will be avoidance. Our new shiny Block Value is *useless* in ret gear, because we will only have a 5% chance to actually block the attack, a 5% Chance to parry and a 5% chance to dodge, base, before taking into account our Defense Value and the Mobs Level, and the mob being able to crit the Ret Paladin, because there is no way in hell a Ret paladin in ret gear, will have the nescesarry Defense to push crit off the hit table.

Smacking on a shield, is not what makes you a tank, being able to generate threat is not what makes you a tank, hell, even having a high mitigation isn't what makes you a tank.

What makes you a tank, is your ability to combine threat generation, High Hitpoint, High Mitigation, and High Avoidance, in a way that a healer has enough time to get his heal off before the mob kills you.

In WotL A Ret paladin will *NOT* have those tools, in Retribution Gear. He will have to switch to tanking gear, thus, being unable to tank in an "emergency" situation. But they will be able to give some emergency healing, which means they will be hybrids for emergencies, as many have wanted and hoped for, in addition to their specialized role, without having to change gear. But they will *NOT* be able to grab that boss for the last 10% if the tank goes down, they would be better off letting the Feral Druid grab the boss, and try to keep him alive through healing, or continue DPS'ing.

This is all obvious, but you seem to assume Ret Paladins will be one shotted by bosses, unless things change drastically, this wont be true. This isnt a black or white answer, there is no yes or no. Will Ret Paladins be able to off tank to some degree? Yes. Does this mean we'll be tanking bosses in Ret gear? No. But these answers dont answer everything because it is a vague question.

Not every question has two answers, so dont act like this one answer means Ret cant tank at all in mid combat.

[Samiel]

I'm not, like I've said, Ret will be able to tank 5-mans just fine, probably in ret gear as well. They will be able to tank 10-man trash in an emergency also, but they can *ALREADY* do that in BC.

in 25-mans, they'll be dead, against 10-man bosses, they'll be dead.

Unless they are in tanking gear, and they might stand a chance.

[Knighthonor]

I'm not, like I've said, Ret will be able to tank 5-mans just fine, probably in ret gear as well. They will be able to tank 10-man trash in an emergency also, but they can *ALREADY* do that in BC.

in 25-mans, they'll be dead, against 10-man bosses, they'll be dead.

Unless they are in tanking gear, and they might stand a chance.

I agree here unless Blizzard gives us baseline Pure Avoidance ability.

[Moar Pew Pew]

I'm not, like I've said, Ret will be able to tank 5-mans just fine, probably in ret gear as well. They will be able to tank 10-man trash in an emergency also, but they can *ALREADY* do that in BC.

in 25-mans, they'll be dead, against 10-man bosses, they'll be dead.

Unless they are in tanking gear, and they might stand a chance.

I never meant to imply this wasnt true. But as for Ret tanking 5 mans in Ret gear, unless they are really over geared this just doesnt really happen currently. But in wotlk, maybe they could.

[Samiel]

I've tanked 5-mans in Ret Gear in BC, all you need is enough HP. Not heroics, but normal ones, in plain PvP Ret gear + a Shield. (yeah, so maybe I was uncrittable )

[Samiel]

Yes, we'll definetly be able to off-heal and emergency heal, I agree 100% With SoL and the new damage prevention tools, Ret will be able to be Healing Hybrids without any change of gear.