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  1. #21

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthara
    i just had to log in and tell you everything you just typed out is wrong lol

    all attacks have a chance to glance, damage is not higher the faster a weapon is
    You should have stayed logged off...

    Heroic Strike, as has been pointed out, is only useful as a rage dump and should only be used as such.

    However... it is considered a yellow attack and therefore it is not subject to glancing blows. Your statement is missing the word "white" which is your autoattack. Heroic strike is not a white hit.

    Special attacks are not subject to the dual wield penalty. They have, I believe, an 8% base chance to miss. When you equip a weapon in your off hand all of your white attacks are subject to a 27% base chance to miss. 27-8=19 This is where he got his 19% extra chance to hit.

    I would explain the faster weapon = more damage from heroic strike part to you, but I probably lost you at the 27-8 part. Suffice it to say that its close to the same mechanics that leads tanks to prefer faster weapons when tanking and stay away from slower ones.

    So in essence, the poster you were quoting was correct about the mechanics of heroic strike but wrong about its usage. Which someone already commented on and makes your post completely pointless, but does wonders at making you look like an idiot. Congratulations

  2. #22

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ends
    You should have stayed logged off...

    Heroic Strike, as has been pointed out, is only useful as a rage dump and should only be used as such.

    However... it is considered a yellow attack and therefore it is not subject to glancing blows. Your statement is missing the word "white" which is your autoattack. Heroic strike is not a white hit.

    Special attacks are not subject to the dual wield penalty. They have, I believe, an 8% base chance to miss. When you equip a weapon in your off hand all of your white attacks are subject to a 27% base chance to miss. 27-8=19 This is where he got his 19% extra chance to hit.

    I would explain the faster weapon = more damage from heroic strike part to you, but I probably lost you at the 27-8 part. Suffice it to say that its close to the same mechanics that leads tanks to prefer faster weapons when tanking and stay away from slower ones.

    So in essence, the poster you were quoting was correct about the mechanics of heroic strike but wrong about its usage. Which someone already commented on and makes your post completely pointless, but does wonders at making you look like an idiot. Congratulations
    Yellow attacks have a 5% missrate and dw penalty against boss lvl(73) is 28%.

  3. #23

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by eizei
    Yellow attacks have a 5% missrate and dw penalty against boss lvl(73) is 28%.
    Chance to miss a raid boss is actually 9% looked it up dual wield is indeed 28%

  4. #24
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    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ends
    So in essence, the poster you were quoting was correct about the mechanics of heroic strike but wrong about its usage.
    In most WWS of fury warrior that I have parsed, Heroic Strike is 25-35% of the total damage. These warriors are not missing any BT or WW cooldowns and rampage was up 100%, therefore the lost rage is moot.

    Take this 30%, subject it to the following:

    1) Multiply by 0.8 due to loss of bonus damage (210 dmg out of 1000dmg heroic strike). Worse with buffed HS in WOTLK
    2) Multiply by ~0.85 (15% miss chance for warrior with +10% hit on gear and +3% precision)
    3) Multiply by 0.96 for the damage lost due to 15% glances at 75% damage (particulars here may be wrong)
    4) Multiply by 0.97 for the damage lost from impale (35% crit chance used)

    Total multiplier is 0.63. This means that 30% of your damage is reduced by 37%, for a total 11% damage reduction from not using heroic strike.

  5. #25

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    soo.
    i think its kinda funny half this threads posters are forum noobs ^-^

    anyone else?

    besides bliz will make the spec work they wouldn't let wrath go live with a useless high tier talent.


  6. #26
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    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by myarluu
    besides bliz will make the spec work they wouldn't let wrath go live with a useless high tier talent.
    Endless Rage
    Endless Rage
    Endless Rage

  7. #27

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    1. i said wrath ;]
    2. whats wrong with endless rage?

  8. #28

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrchee
    In most WWS of fury warrior that I have parsed, Heroic Strike is 25-35% of the total damage. These warriors are not missing any BT or WW cooldowns and rampage was up 100%, therefore the lost rage is moot.

    Take this 30%, subject it to the following:

    1) Multiply by 0.8 due to loss of bonus damage (210 dmg out of 1000dmg heroic strike). Worse with buffed HS in WOTLK
    2) Multiply by ~0.85 (15% miss chance for warrior with +10% hit on gear and +3% precision)
    3) Multiply by 0.96 for the damage lost due to 15% glances at 75% damage (particulars here may be wrong)
    4) Multiply by 0.97 for the damage lost from impale (35% crit chance used)

    Total multiplier is 0.63. This means that 30% of your damage is reduced by 37%, for a total 11% damage reduction from not using heroic strike.
    Umm... Ur wielding a badass slow hard hitter 2H in ur MH. Maybe use (imp) Slam instead of HS?
    Correlation does not imply causation.

  9. #29

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Using HS in raid is just a suicide...

    With a 2handed weapon in the main hand i'm going to use slam after each main hand swing, WW , bloodthirst and bloodsurge (which is going to proc often). Ans my guess is that i'm going to waste rage...

  10. #30

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by zox
    Umm... Ur wielding a badass slow hard hitter 2H in ur MH. Maybe use (imp) Slam instead of HS?
    finally some1 who managed to think! but no u wont use imp slam since it resets both swing timers we will use instant slams which will be more dmg then heroic strike adds

  11. #31

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Improved Bloodthirst = Instant Slam.

    Instant Slam 2H > Heroic Strike.

  12. #32
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    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by zox
    Umm... Ur wielding a badass slow hard hitter 2H in ur MH. Maybe use (imp) Slam instead of HS?
    _________________________________________________
    Quote Originally Posted by strajker
    finally some1 who managed to think! but no u wont use imp slam since it resets both swing timers we will use instant slams which will be more dmg then heroic strike adds
    1) Non-bloodsurge slams reset both swing timers. HUGE penalty when you are at 4.0 and higher
    2) Bloodsurge gives a 3.5 second window of opportunity to use instant slam. This may very likely conflict with WW CD, Rampage refresh, demo shout refresh, etc. Furthermore, it will occur 2-4 times a minute at max. You cannot compare this to the benefit that HS gives to onehander use

  13. #33

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by strajker
    finally some1 who managed to think! but no u wont use imp slam since it resets both swing timers we will use instant slams which will be more dmg then heroic strike adds
    As far as I know all kinds of slam are resetting swing timers, be it normal, imp or bs slam.
    So as a TG fury u'll want 2 2H weapons with the exact same swing timer and cast ur slam so when it hits it hits almost the exact same time ur white swing hits.

    My guess is though that in the end they'll make slam so it doesn't reset swing timers but introduce a cd in accordance to ur swing timer (so not to make it op) much like how the new aimed shot works (well going to work)
    Correlation does not imply causation.

  14. #34

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrchee
    _________________________________________________
    1) Non-bloodsurge slams reset both swing timers. HUGE penalty when you are at 4.0 and higher
    2) Bloodsurge gives a 3.5 second window of opportunity to use instant slam. This may very likely conflict with WW CD, Rampage refresh, demo shout refresh, etc. Furthermore, it will occur 2-4 times a minute at max. You cannot compare this to the benefit that HS gives to onehander use
    1, u'll just have to time the slam just like every 33/28 warr times it now
    2, if bs slam indeed doesn't reset swing timers then 2-4 times a minute u get 2 slams off in that 3.5 seconds +1 ww maybe before bt is up. that 2 slams are about 1000+ap dmg. And on the top of it all u will get the rage from ur white swing.
    Correlation does not imply causation.

  15. #35

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    well concidering youll have the shaman version of wf (2 extra hits) 33% proc and all the nice ww dmg i don't think you'll hurt to bad. just kinda hope that the 51 talent was a mutilate of some sort to reflect the 2hand thing

  16. #36

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by myarluu
    well concidering youll have the shaman version of wf (2 extra hits) 33% proc and all the nice ww dmg i don't think you'll hurt to bad. just kinda hope that the 51 talent was a mutilate of some sort to reflect the 2hand thing
    Aint windfury changed to 20% haste instead of an extra attack? Therefore I thought the totem only provided 1 extra attack?

  17. #37
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    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by zox
    1, u'll just have to time the slam just like every 33/28 warr times it now
    2, if bs slam indeed doesn't reset swing timers then 2-4 times a minute u get 2 slams off in that 3.5 seconds +1 ww maybe before bt is up. that 2 slams are about 1000+ap dmg. And on the top of it all u will get the rage from ur white swing.
    you get ONE instant slam per bloodsurge proc.

    And i was doing slam rotations instinctively way before I understood anything about mechanics of this game or before anyone talked about it, when I used to raid kara as 20/41 2H fury back in april-may or so of 2007

    The point is, I understand warrior mechanics back to front... and the way it is implemented at the moment, Titan Grip flat-out sucks completely, with no chance to compete.

    There is still hope that Blizz will fix it; that is why threads like this exist here and on the beta forum, and why I post my posts

  18. #38

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrchee
    _________________________________________________
    1) Non-bloodsurge slams reset both swing timers. HUGE penalty when you are at 4.0 and higher
    I srsly miss to see the problem. Slam is used by all PvE Arms warrior, and the only thing you have to worry about is casting it exactly after your swing, so the real reset penalty is very very low. If you're swinging at 4.0 speed, a reset 0,5-0,8sec after the swing isn't gonna kill you. As for Arms warriors, timer up your Slams with the swings, it rly isn't that hard to do. If you can't grasp your timing, get Quartz

    Anyway, afaik TG is an (overall) 10% dps increase, due to the damage change in WW-Slam, and given the dps difference between 1h and 2h, adding the speed penalty from 5/5. Cba redoing all math here, but it was a quite accurate calculation, so I really don't expect it to be any kind of *less* damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  19. #39
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    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    If you want to believe that current Titan Grip implementation is a DPS boost, feel free to think so. It is your right to believe whatever you wish to, whatever reason and evidence may dictate

  20. #40

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by highwind
    HS isnt a rage dump, HS is a tanking skill.
    If u want to dump rage as a fury warrior use cleave... the bonus dmg with imp cleave is not far away from HS but it doesnt add any extra aggro and does considerably more dmg if there is a second mob in range.


    "and such" ?

    Fact is there is only 1 (in words ONE) skill a fury warrior uses which is dependant on weapons base damage: whirlwind

    Fact is whirlwind is a normalized attack which means the attack power contribution is independant of weapons speed or in other words, the ONLY difference between the ww dmg of a slow and a fast weapon (given that the dps on both is the same) is the difference in base dmg which is with "endgame weapons" normally under 100 in average and before armor reduce.

    Fact is whirlwind has compareably long cd of 10 seks unskilled so the dmg increase of 100 between a slow and a fast weapon must be divided through 10 to get the dps increase... and that is, as said, before armor reduce.

    So given the fact that there is no boss in WoW which has zero armor u look at a dps increase of under 10 dps when wwing with a slow mh compared to wwing with a fast one.


    In situations where rage isnt a problem (Voidreaver for example) u get far more dps from cleave-spamming with a fast mh than u would lose while wwing with it.
    (The calc why spamming "on next strike" skills with a faster weapon gives more dps than doing it with a slow one is made on the first page of this thread)


    And dont get me wrong, im not saying "omg u are all ubernoobs cause u play with slow mainhands"... im just trying to point out that the generall believe "Any fury warrior must use a slow mainhand at all times" is just plain wrong, it depens on the situation and it depens on weapon alternatives u have.
    lolwut

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