Titan Grip = Weaksause?

[Karpalo]

Just to keep it clear:
In a raid situation, Titan's Grip is a large white DPS decrease, you may ask why, here is the reason:
Titan's Grip decreases your attack speed by 20%, not your wielded weapon's speed by 20%.
That means you do not only lose 20% of your weapon's DPS but also 20% of your DPS you gain by AP.
In full Sunwell gear your average 1h Weapon DPS is ~110 while your average 2h Weapon DPS is ~143, so you'd get a (143/1.2)-110=9.17 char screen DPS buff from the changed weapon but reduce your char screen DPS from AP by 20%, so if you have more than 9.17*14*100/20=641.9 AP, you will actually lose white DPS, I believe even your naked base AP with Battleshout is higher than that.


That said, what are the benefits of it?

Usually same tier 2h weapons have 30% more DPS than their 1h counterparts and are 37.5% slower (tested with S1-S4 weapons).
So the Whirlwind/Slam "weapon damage" formulas are, assuming same tier weapons and dps/speed refering to the 1h weapon stats:
1h: dps*speed+ap/14*2.4
2h: dps*1.3*speed*1.375+ap*3.3=dps*speed*1.7875+ap/14*2.4*1.375
Assuming that you usually get at least the same and a maximum of 4 times the amount of DPS from AP as from your weapon, that means a boost of 45.75%-58.125% in weapon damage.

Assuming your decreased rage generation is enough, you'll also gain more effective damage per rage from Heroic Strike and Cleave in raid situations, as most of their benefit (if you're geared properly) is increasing the damage of the hit percentually by reducing its miss chance by up to 19% (HS and Cleave) and giving an additional weapon hit (Cleave). However I suppose this is mostly countered by the decreased rage generation.

Of course you also get on average 1/(27/64)=2.37 times as much stats from your weapons.

When you put together above points you get:
+ ~137% weapon stats
+ ~8.33% weapon DPS
+ ~50% Slam/WW damage
+ increase in Cleave/Heroic Strike rage efficiency
- 20% white DPS from AP
- ~18% rage generation

That's assuming you put 5 points into it, I wouldn't even want to look on the numbers when you don't.
Now this may look as it's a pretty good talent, but as in endgame raids you usually have ~70% of your damage coming from white hits and Heroic Strike or Cleave and ~70% of your DPS is from AP, it's not really looking good as a 5 points talent.

as i said earlier haste makes titan grip build viable. i did simple maths on another topic where you can see you actually get significant increase in white dps from TG after you start stacking haste effects

1400 ap 50% speed increase for NON-TG warrior ending up at 150 effective dps when it is 160 dps for warrior who is using TG. ppl saying TG will generate less rage cant be true since as far as i know you get certain amount of rage for every dmg dealt. 2x 1.3 daggers wont generate more rage than 2.6 axes just do it in more steady phase.

[Karpalo]

ok here is simplified pattern lets asume 3.8 sec weapon

3.8*0.2(titans grip)=0.76
0.76+3.8=4.56 seconds as a final swingtime with penalty, now lets include flurry for both non-TG and TG builds

without TG lets asume 2.6 weapon with 4/5 flurry to make maths very simple

2.6*0.2=0.52
2.6-0.52=2.08

with TG

4.56*0.2=0.912
4.56-0.912=3.648

now we compare speed increase we got from flurry to the actual weapon speeds which are used as modifier for attackpower

with 2.6 weapon

0.52/2.6=0.2 giving the same 20%

now with 3.8 weapon

0.912/3.8=0.24 giving 24%

This means haste ap ratio is 20% better for titan grip builded warriors than it would actually be if you were using one handers.

What this looks to me is that warriors will scale well as ever in wotlk and yet ppl are crying so much that even murlocks will drown if this stays up.

(did link this from old post word to word)

[Crimsonak]

as i said earlier haste makes titan grip build viable. i did simple maths on another topic where you can see you actually get significant increase in white dps from TG after you start stacking haste effects

1400 ap 50% speed increase for NON-TG warrior ending up at 150 effective dps when it is 160 dps for warrior who is using TG. ppl saying TG will generate less rage cant be true since as far as i know you get certain amount of rage for every dmg dealt. 2x 1.3 daggers wont generate more rage than 2.6 axes just do it in more steady phase.

If you have a miss with a 1.3speed dagger its not a big deal.
the miss rate of fury means if you miss with a slow two hander, with a haste penalty ontop of that, it's gonna effect your rage alot.
Also its not a set amount of rage it's based on damage done.
Lastly did you compare this 50% haste increase to make TG viable with a 50% haste increase without TG?

[harky]

That isn't how haste effects work. You can't simply take speed*mod and assume that's correct. A 3.8 weapon attacks about 15.789 times per minute, a 20% reduction of that is about 12.631 times per minute. Roughly 4.75 speed. The other severe flaw is due to the way haste effects work with rage generation. Originally haste was assumed to hamper rage production, when it in fact bases its computation on weapon speed. This means you would be swinging once every 4.75 seconds, but gaining rage based on a 3.8 second weapon speed.

Blizzard would have to altar rage mechanics and haste mechanics for Titan Grip to be worth taking.

[GT4]

as i said earlier haste makes titan grip build viable. i did simple maths on another topic where you can see you actually get significant increase in white dps from TG after you start stacking haste effects

1400 ap 50% speed increase for NON-TG warrior ending up at 150 effective dps when it is 160 dps for warrior who is using TG. ppl saying TG will generate less rage cant be true since as far as i know you get certain amount of rage for every dmg dealt. 2x 1.3 daggers wont generate more rage than 2.6 axes just do it in more steady phase.

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but you're wrong in both points.
1. The value of haste does not depend on your weapon speed and stacks multiplicatively with any %-based Haste or Slow effect like Titan's Grip. As I don't know your wrong maths, another thing to add is that 100% haste means half the attack speed, not zero attack speed. A small and extreme example:
7000 AP, 1577 Haste Rating, 100 DPS 2.6 Speed 1h, 130 DPS 3.6 Speed 2h
1h DPS (Mainhand only, offhand is the same *0.625): (7000/14*2.6+100*2.6)/(2.6/(1+(1577/1577)))= 1200
2h DPS (Mainhand only, offhand is the same *0.625): (7000/14*3.6+130*3.6)/(3.6/(1+(1577/1577))*1.2)= 1050
As you see, it's a 150 white DPS loss before any modifiers. Also your total Haste rating will always increase your white DPS by (Haste Rating/15.77)%, some simple maths to back that up, 100% Haste(=1577 rating) as an example:
4.0 Speed / (1+(1577/1577)) = 2.0 Speed
1 Second / 4.0 Speed = 0.25 Attacks per Second
1 Second / 2.0 Speed = 0.50 Attacks per Second
0.5 ApS / 0.25 ApS = 2

2.0 Speed / (1+(1577/1577)) = 1.0 Speed
1 Second / 2.0 Speed = 0.5 Attacks per Second
1 Second / 1.0 Speed = 1 Attack per Second
1 ApS / 0.5 ApS = 2

It's the same increase and doesn't depend on your attack speed in any way.

2. Rage generation has two parts, one dependant on damage dealt and one dependant on the base weapon speed.
The one that only depends on damage dealt goes down by the same amount of white DPS you lose.
The one that only depends on base weapon speed goes down by exactly 20%, as you do 20% less swings in the same time than without Titan's Grip without a changed base weapon speed.

It's slowly getting boring to correct the same errors and errors over and over, before posting anything that has to do with theorycrafting, please read through WoWWiki.com and/or ElitistJerks.com so you get the mechanics straight.

[GT4]

ok here is simplified pattern lets asume 3.8 sec weapon

3.8*0.2(titans grip)=0.76
0.76+3.8=4.56 seconds as a final swingtime with penalty, now lets include flurry for both non-TG and TG builds

without TG lets asume 2.6 weapon with 4/5 flurry to make maths very simple

2.6*0.2=0.52
2.6-0.52=2.08

with TG

4.56*0.2=0.912
4.56-0.912=3.648

now we compare speed increase we got from flurry to the actual weapon speeds which are used as modifier for attackpower

with 2.6 weapon

0.52/2.6=0.2 giving the same 20%

now with 3.8 weapon

0.912/3.8=0.24 giving 24%

This means haste ap ratio is 20% better for titan grip builded warriors than it would actually be if you were using one handers.

What this looks to me is that warriors will scale well as ever in wotlk and yet ppl are crying so much that even murlocks will drown if this stays up.

(did link this from old post word to word)

That maths is wrong, 20% haste means you divide the attack speed by 1.2, not mulitply it by 0.8. Your flawed maths would make every twink with the Onyxia buff crash the servers by having a negative attack speed.

Edit: I just saw that you even made another error in your own flawed maths, why would you compare the gained attack speed with the base attack speed instead of the attack speed slowed by TG? That doesn't make sense in any way.

Edit#2: Actually Haste will even be worse with TG than without as it only affects your white DPS which is going down significantly.

[mrchee]

Actually Haste will even be worse with TG than without as it only affects your white DPS which is going down significantly.

We have a winner

[Karpalo]

if you watch closely i used 0.2 to calculate the % and then use this mark of mystery (+) to add it in making it same as 1.2 multiplier

[Karpalo]

That isn't how haste effects work. You can't simply take speed*mod and assume that's correct. A 3.8 weapon attacks about 15.789 times per minute, a 20% reduction of that is about 12.631 times per minute. Roughly 4.75 speed. The other severe flaw is due to the way haste effects work with rage generation. Originally haste was assumed to hamper rage production, when it in fact bases its computation on weapon speed. This means you would be swinging once every 4.75 seconds, but gaining rage based on a 3.8 second weapon speed.

Blizzard would have to altar rage mechanics and haste mechanics for Titan Grip to be worth taking.

so in nutshell haste means you get given % more attacks in given timeframe instead of actually increasing attackspeed? Doesnt that make haste stupidly overpriced stat when you compare it to crit? making it pure filler attribute for warriors using 2 handers or one handers.

[harky]

so in nutshell haste means you get given % more attacks in given timeframe instead of actually increasing attackspeed? Doesnt that make haste stupidly overpriced stat when you compare it to crit? making it pure filler attribute for warriors using 2 handers or one handers.

This is why people rarely stack haste exclusively. Similar to why people use Dodge instead of Parry to stack avoidance. The net gain is simply higher.

[fixfurytree4me]

Most of you are putting way too much thought into this...

Even without the 20% slowing bonus, titans grip will never be as much dps as regular 2-1H dual wielding...here is why...

Most of you use two slow weapons, (should be the same speed, if not, you are defeating the whole purpose of two slow weapons), then you know if you get a crit with both your main hand, and offhand at the same time, your rage bar rockets, up to 60-70 rage most of the time. and 55 of that rage is burned with your two main cooldowns, BT and WW. Common sense, i know.

Now lets say you have a two slow two handers in each hand, now lets say they both crit, thats a F#*%ton of rage! Because they *should* hit twice as hard as your one-handers, hell, maybe even a full rage bar from it. Now use your two main cooldowns, BT and WW, so thats (100-55) 45 rage left. now, you HAVE to burn that rage with heroic strike (15 rage) on the next swing just to get rid of a little rage, now you are at 30 rage, easy enough, BUT, you have nothing to spend your rage on... either way, you have to wait that awful 3+ seconds just to get that next burst of rage, which if even one weapon crits, you will have yet another full rage bar. So 90% of the time, you will have 30 unused rage...
(As soon as the patch hits, ill work slam into the equation, slam uses 15 rage, and with imp slam, you can EASILY fit two slams between each melee swing. A good bloodthirst whirlwind, slam, slam rotation may be the last thing two-two hand dps needs to burn that extra rage off, because im pulling for this to work too.)

All in all, you have 3 damaging spells in 3 seconds, and a s#!&-ton of unused rage that you have no way of dumping, a.k.a. lost dps.
Now im not saying having too much rage is bad, but while you are doing your little 1 heroic strike, 1 bloodthirst, 1 whirlwind, and 2 melee swings, my 1 handers will get 1 bloodthirst, 1 whirlwind, two-three times the melee swings, and 2-3 heroic strikes.

Now even though it does sound super badass, it will *probably* never prevail over normal 1-h DW dps.

That wont keep me from speccing it when the patch hits tho

[Markcrux]

....flurry...mongoose, haste etc...

imo haste might be something that fury warriors might start to seriously think about stacking, i mean titans grasp would be beastly if u could get the attack speed down to 2s or less.

And again, fury being a pve spec..windfury, raid buffs yadda...it will own..

2h weps do often have alot more stats apposed to 1h weps which will grant a slight dps bonus depending on ur weps...people are comenting on how heroic strike would be pritty much pointless using due to the slow speed of the weps...but instead of HS...SLAM..woo free slam after BS crit..yess plz!! anwyays :P personally slam will be the HS for D/wing 2h weps...and WW of course will be significantly stronger (i would assume) in all, i personally dont know what it will be like...wait till everyone is 70 cap and raiding...we will see what is the best then

One thing thats gonna make me sad is every and any warrior will respec this straight away...and those with weaksauce weps...will most likely complain..anyways..just my opinion cheers

Markou - Dunemaul...hit me up if u want

[Heratius]

For those that want to argue that Heroic strike should not really be used in a raid setting. Heres a recent WWS which shows i use it anywhere from 10-15% of the time. You use it when you have anything over 50 rage to dump. If you do not your wasting valuable dps.

http://wowwebstats.com/umrea6fqmvome?s=185012-205403

[JTLJudoMan]

Most of the high end WWS parses put Heroic Strike at ~20-30% of the fury warrior's dps.

http://wowwebstats.com/f1vlh1ncykuhw?s=4293-4570&a=18
http://wowwebstats.com/f1vlh1ncykuhw?s=8765-9029&a=106
http://wowwebstats.com/2fpjqbwvl4j1e?s=3934-4236&a=13

What I am curious about is if the TG build allows for a slow enough swing timer for slam to be preferable over heroic strike. I believe the old idea was if your swing was slower than 2 seconds it was better to use slam... I'm not sure if this even applies now with dual wielding 2 handers though due to the fact that slam would only be hitting with one of them. Slam would; however, be modified by the slow speed of the 2 hander which would make for some huge slams. At this point in time I'm not even sure if its worth talking about since the trees aren't near being finished. An instant slam build does (at this time) seem the most appealing to me though since its more reactionary dps-wise. Sounds like quite an entertaining build. =-)

[Heratius]

Most of the high end WWS parses put Heroic Strike at ~20-30% of the fury warrior's dps.

Probably because rage is not an issue at those gear lvl's

[loop not defined]

So many people in this thread are living in the past (pre-BC) and doing terrible damage.

Listen to the poster who was talking about how important heroic strike damage is - look at ANY top PvE guild's WWS parse who runs a fury warrior, heroic strike willl be ~30% of the overall damage, more than bloodthirst and way more than whirlwind, which is overrated for single target bosses especially. I think what the real world results have yielded is that stacking so much hit like the old days means you lose a tremendous amount of AP and Crit (and thus flurry) - much better to really buff those stats, and use a lot of HS to make up for the DW penalty. Like i said, we're not making stuff up -- check out the PvE parses of guilds like SK Gaming, Blood Legion, Abananax (tho they're dead), etc.. THE top fury DPS warriors use a ton of heroic strike, it's not just a once in a blue moon rage dump. The results speak for themselves.

Isn't Titan's Grip a post-TBC talent? Correct me if I'm wrong. o_O

I fail to see how pre-WotLK raid statistics determine the usefulness Titan's Grip. Ahhhh, Theorycrafting at it's best....

[Rabbitskull]

Isn't Titan's Grip a post-TBC talent? Correct me if I'm wrong. o_O

I fail to see how pre-WotLK raid statistics determine the usefulness Titan's Grip. Ahhhh, Theorycrafting at it's best....

Well you said it yourself, you fail. The reason why it matters is there are people in this thread who don't understand how Warrior DPS currently works and they are trying to use the same flawed logic to make TG look good. TG currently isn't good and we need to make sure it gets fixed.

[Anoyarou]

Heyas,

Titan's Grip is certainly a new direction for the Fury Tree, so naturally there's been a great deal of discussion regarding this talent.

Here's two threads that deal with the issue in a more authoritative manner:

WotLK Beta Forums:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...86&sid=2000#31

Elitist Jerks had a thread on this too, but I can't find it on their forums anymore...

Hope this helps!