Not happy with the moonkin tree yet.

[Eleena]

Well its not like the beta is over btw.
In our current form I think three things would be the best buffs for us ver all. (hey I might be wrong =P)

Arcane mages once and for all becomming awesome dps, which is very used. (they would be BEGGING for our debuff then)
Cooldown on haste reduced to 12-15seconds. (would make it a bit more fun too)
Shamans totems nerfed slightly, and most of all revert Wrath of air to give spelldamage again.

Ofc there are more thing to do till we're great, but personally I think the above, would be the main factors left, which could ruin it for us, and make us "underdogs" again.

[Panoramixe]

2 moonfire>20 sec CD typhoon.
Noone wants a moonkin for the raid after this. "Bah we dont care about your 20% haste on crit with mega long cooldown, we will pick a survival hunter instead kkthxbye"

You may have the luck to run Karazhan, and you have maybe played a moonkin for a week, but me, gladiator ranked (2300 rating s1, the arena fails now) field marshall druid that have been played moonkin from the start knows that these talents are to weak. I didnt like treants either in TBC- they die in two hits. Blizzard should give us better talents so we can DPS in PvP arena to. Yes there are a few guilds that gonna accept moonkins in WOTLK but the talents are crap, just look at the lower tiers. It gives balance druid strong buffs, but the uper once are so weak!

Moonkin have some representation in raids now and everyone has to agree we'll be far better off in the expansion. Your comments have no facts, just random QQ. I don't care that you're a gladiator in S1; it still doesn't help to predict class balance.
We have no info on level 80 gear yet, glyphs are still being designed and new arenas are made.
So the things you can discuss are talents, the issues they have and the solutions for these problems.

The issue you mention is the lack of “I win buttons” at the higher tiers of the balance tree. As it stands there are several nice talents for pvp there, but they are however situational.

Starfall is a good damage boost in small scale pvp, just remember to look at the last rank and not rank 1. Yes it can be dispelled, but when you’re nuking down a target I doubt the shaman/priest will focus on you.

Typhoon is still being tested and has some bugs, so too early to pass judgement on it. It has the potential to be immensely useful though, however situational

Owlkin frenzy will depend a lot on the pvp set bonuses, if starfire for some reason will become useful for pvp after a proc the spell pushback resistance might be handy. It also gives a 10% damage boost, which will be up the entire time if they put a pet on your ass or you have a dual wielder chasing you. (So against hunters for example you’ll either be able to drink or have a constant 10% damage boost.)

We’ve also been given an indirect buff by the spellpower change, meaning our heals in balance gear heal for as much as if you were in full healing gear now without resto talents.
This opens up the possibility of going restokin with some more success. (Swiftmend + most important damage talents) However for some reason people don’t consider this spec as a ‘balance spec” but as a “resto spec”. I think it has immense potential and don’t give a rat’s ass I might have to heal depending on the enemy team, as long as the team is better off.

[Eleena]

We’ve also been given an indirect buff by the spellpower change, meaning our heals in balance gear heal for as much as if you were in full healing gear now without resto talents.
This opens up the possibility of going restokin with some more success. (Swiftmend + most important damage talents) However for some reason people don’t consider this spec as a ‘balance spec” but as a “resto spec”. I think it has immense potential and don’t give a rat’s ass I might have to heal depending on the enemy team, as long as the team is better off.

Well I agree with you mostly, but I refuse to call restokin, a balance spec, mainly because the balance spec really is just a resto druid with moonkin form, and more mana regeneration. over half the talents you would pick in that talent tree, wouldn't be used over 70% of the time. (yes 'm pulling numbers outta my arse, but seriously most of the time, you'll be healing or similar, and use moonkin form as a replacement for bearform, where you can cc instead...)

Anyways as people have said, its still beta, best thing we can do is get in, and give blizz a much feedback as possible.

[Panoramixe]

Well I agree with you mostly, but I refuse to call restokin, a balance spec, mainly because the balance spec really is just a resto druid with moonkin form, and more mana regeneration. over half the talents you would pick in that talent tree, wouldn't be used over 70% of the time. (yes 'm pulling numbers outta my arse, but seriously most of the time, you'll be healing or similar, and use moonkin form as a replacement for bearform, where you can cc instead...)

Anyways as people have said, its still beta, best thing we can do is get in, and give blizz a much feedback as possible.

People really underestimate it, mainly because it's sub par on live. As it stands in the beta right now it will be able to do both roles properly (both damage and healing).

For example a build like this one only misses wrath of Cenarius to be near perfect (perhaps next expansion).
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...35210010000000

You’ll be able to cc/spam wrath just as efficient as a full balance druid, the only difference is you die a lot less fast and you can support your team better depending on which healing/damage/cc would be most effective against the other set-up. It also has nice synergy with NG and improved regrowth
I for one would love to see a destro lock/disc priest/restokin 3vs3, would be entertaining.

[Sinitar]

i hope that they'll do the right thing and remove the cooldown from improved moonkin aura,and also boost some other talents for balance(merge lunar guidance and dreamstate,3 points wrath of cenarius,better earth&moon etc.).It's still beta,but as it stands right now,moonkins will still be the least desired spec in parties.Meh,just wait a couple of months and we will see /pray for better moonkins

[Panoramixe]

i hope that they'll do the right thing and remove the cooldown from improved moonkin aura,and also boost some other talents for balance(merge lunar guidance and dreamstate,3 points wrath of cenarius,better earth&moon etc.).It's still beta,but as it stands right now,moonkins will still be the least desired spec in parties.Meh,just wait a couple of months and we will see /pray for better moonkins

For normal dungeons and heroics we'll be one of the most desired specs, you highly underestimate the power of a decent cc (two against some mobs).

[Ikarus76]

New Passive balance talents are joke's (Active too)

Eclipse is retarded and there is no need to max it. (Badly designed)

Gale winds is crap just because it increase effectivity of useless spells,
if there is another increase of cyclone range it should be at least old range 36yards.

Starfall is another "Force of Nature" talent

Typhoon is crap just compare to new mage blast wave
Mage: TIER 5
Blast Wave - Knockback added, now a wave of flame radiates outward from the caster, damaging all enemies caught within the blast for 1047 to 1233 Fire damage, knocking them back and Dazing them for 6 seconds.

Earth and Moon is Best of Best jokes

Druid TIER 10 TALENT
Your Wrath and Starfire spells have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance of applying the Nature's Fury debuff on the target. The Nature's Fury debuff increases Nature and Arcane damage done to the target by 2%. Lasts 12 sec. Stacks up to 3 times.
(5 Ranks)

Mage TIER 4 TALENT
Improved Scorch - More damage types added, now your Scorch spells have a 33/66/100% chance to cause your target to be vulnerable to Fire, Frost and Arcane damage, increasing damage taken by 2/4/6/8/10% and lasts 30 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times.
(3 Ranks)

Result: Lower talent, lower investment, stronger buff, more elements in debuf, longer duration. GJ


They should merge eclipse with earth and moon.
Dreamstate merged with lunar guidance should be tier 10 talent.

I don't know a ton about druids, but please don't compare the talents. Fire has so many backward talents we have to spec into 2 to make the third useful. I understand what you are saying and I can do the same thing with locs. but they are difrent specs for a reason so the tree's are going to be way diffrent.

I also feel your guys pain on having too many talents, arcane and frost is the same way. I wonder if there trying to get more people to go spec 1 way to get more raid wide use out of all the classes. If so we will need a few 40 man dungens, a 25 man will be hard to get all the right classes together and a 10 next to impossable.

Well ill leave you droods alone and go back to my QQ fest at the mage table, food and drinks on the house.

[Eleena]

People really underestimate it, mainly because it's sub par on live. As it stands in the beta right now it will be able to do both roles properly (both damage and healing).

For example a build like this one only misses wrath of Cenarius to be near perfect (perhaps next expansion).
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...35210010000000

You’ll be able to cc/spam wrath just as efficient as a full balance druid, the only difference is you die a lot less fast and you can support your team better depending on which healing/damage/cc would be most effective against the other set-up. It also has nice synergy with NG and improved regrowth
I for one would love to see a destro lock/disc priest/restokin 3vs3, would be entertaining.

Ye I played it myself, and found it decently fun, but I prefer a play style, where I focus on dps, but canshift to heal in emergencies and not the other way around =P

[Karpalo]

I dont really care what you say the moonkin talents are so damn crap atm its even worser than tier 1 talents. In WOTLK i will be a restokin with treants, no way im choosing those crap talents. Eclipse with 2 min CD is laughable, and melee yd is 5, FIVE, so that * spell should knock back 20 yards, not 5, the cd are extremely long, and even moonfire do more damage.

I dont understand starfall. Some stars falling down an area damaging 300 each under some secs with 3 min CD? Will it follow the target? I am very happy about the thorns buff, but the other talents are crap. Imped moonkin form should increase Intellect the same way the other forms increases buff.

And for gods sake Kalgan, please add some real balance talents so we are not forced to get resto gear again, this is an fail.

Raid uti? Crits should restore 2% mana and increase casting speed by 20% for 8 sec with 15 sec cd, lol. And the feral talent 51 pt one SUCKS! 15 sec immunity CC and a 5 min CD... Kalgan screws up the WOTLK tree with so hard nerfs, shouldnt Kalgan make us happy with the new talents? These talents are not fine, they are crap, you who tell me im failing and qqing should go back to their rogues, because these talents are worthless!

i dont think there is no class without no aoe in wotlk

[smuggles908]

The knockback will barely knock you out of melee range, since melee range is 3yrds.

[Deleted]

I tbh hate you noobs yelling QQ and post your epeen armory. I hate arena now, my rating sucks, but you can click on my titles. Yes im QQing because im not happy with these piece of * crap talents that wont help me.

Instead of thinking"OMG i will get 13 more dps" think: "How may these new * talents help me?" I mean common, you can live without those talents, not a huge difference at all. I am not happy with these, i expected something that improved the epeen level we missed in TBC, but now we just get crap skills. Typhoon sucks, it should stun for 2 sec instead, or even 3, to help us get a free starfire cast. And starfall should be changed to Armaggeddon with same mech as d2 one.

Armaggeddon. Unleashes stars from heaven causing 500 damage each hit. After 20 stars, the duration is over and you can not use this skill again for 2 minutes. This ability gives 10% maximum mana back if you use it on moonkin form.

Improved Hurricane. While using Hurricane, you will regenate 3% mana per second.

Improved Insect Swarm. Reduce the targets armor by 10% and resistances by 25.

Hurricane. Unleash a hurricane, knocking target back 10 yards and stunning it for 3 sec. 40 sec CD.

Owlkin Frenzy. Your attacks in noobkin form have a 50% chance to make your next spellcast instant with no mana cost.

See? Those kind of talents is what i want, Kalgan!

[smuggles908]

From what I understand, just because it looks good on paper doesnt mean its good in real play.
It is also a knockback, I heard that the knockback and the spell itself is really slow meaning that the spell takes awhile to reach the target and to even affect, sorta like how shadowbolt, frostbolt and wrath work. Good players will eventually use this to their advantage and use it to go closer to the players. Example: Your chaseing the chicken and he uses typhoon, you see it comeing so you jump while moveing forward then turn your character backward and get "knock backed" towards him. I hope they realize this could happen, but being the lead game designer playing a warrior they wont realize this till a year into WotLK

[smuggles908]

For normal dungeons and heroics we'll be one of the most desired specs, you highly underestimate the power of a decent cc (two against some mobs).

Heh, no. They can still with roots and most mobs in dungeons will have something to do when rooted. And your counting cyclone as a viable PvE CC? wtf?

[Panoramixe]

Heh, no. They can still with roots and most mobs in dungeons will have something to do when rooted. And your counting cyclone as a viable PvE CC? wtf?

I'm calling hibernate a viable cc on dragon kin and beasts.
And against melee mobs roots is the best cc there is and guess what so far about 75% from all mobs in dungeons have been melee really.

[Ghrim]

People really underestimate it, mainly because it's sub par on live. As it stands in the beta right now it will be able to do both roles properly (both damage and healing).

For example a build like this one only misses wrath of Cenarius to be near perfect (perhaps next expansion).
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...35210010000000

You’ll be able to cc/spam wrath just as efficient as a full balance druid, the only difference is you die a lot less fast and you can support your team better depending on which healing/damage/cc would be most effective against the other set-up. It also has nice synergy with NG and improved regrowth
I for one would love to see a destro lock/disc priest/restokin 3vs3, would be entertaining.

I think this build is far from being ideal as you seem to focus to much on making damage and therefore lose A LOT abilities to help you control the fight. The point in brambles is wasted. 5% chance to daze the target when thorns are up... Most of the time you will fight against teams that have at least one possibility to dispell your buffs and hots. And they will do it. Do you really want to recast thorns all over? Even this one point is better in Imp nature's grasp which I would max out to be honst. Next point is not taking Nature's reach. Don't understand this one as it is mandatory as a druid to keep a distance between you and your enemies. I would take it just for the increase cyclone range. And also your damaging spells are better with that. 3 points in vengeance are a waste, too. In arenas you won't crit that much and i think there's a lot talents where you can put these 3 points to better use (e.g. imp nature's grasp). Why don't you take lunar's guidance? It's less spellpower than now, but still an absolutely valid talent. With a restokin build i would take out the points from Moonglow as you will hardly ever encounter manaproblems. Also the 5 points in moonfury. Well as i said, if you focus a lot on damage i can at least understand this one, but wouldn't take it as i think that the biggest plus of a restokin is his healing abilities with a nice damage if needed, your build seem to be a somehow crippled moonkin which (in my opinion) is a lot worse for the team than a healing restokin who takes the nice manaregen and a at least to some extent boosted damage advantages of the balance tree (where i think the best talents are starlight wrath, nature's reach, celstial focus, lunar guidance, balance of power and ofcourse moonkin itself in regard to push damage abilities. You can take all of those with having a lot more points for the resto tree. I would also take out the point in owlkin frenzy, but well, it's at least viable. Now for the resto tree. It looks a lot better than your balance tree but something i woudl consider is maxing Furor. You don't have feral charge, but you still have bash and it sometimes is very important to make this stun as fast as possible. And i don't think you will use healing spells with cast time THAT much. With regrowth and nourish you have two good spells but i wouldn't use them while under heavy attack. The danger of being school locked is just too high. So the points in nature's focus are arguable. I agree that the first 5 points also can be distributed among this and imp motw, it's to some extent a personal opinion. But nevertheless i would max out empowered rejuvenation as it is really powerfull.

And i'd prefer going full balance when you really want to focus on damage and have another healer around as things like typhoon and even starfall seem to be rather good in pvp.

Overall i would go along with something like this: http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...30210000000000

I tbh hate you noobs yelling QQ and post your epeen armory. I hate arena now, my rating sucks, but you can click on my titles. Yes im QQing because im not happy with these piece of * crap talents that wont help me.

Instead of thinking"OMG i will get 13 more dps" think: "How may these new * talents help me?" I mean common, you can live without those talents, not a huge difference at all. I am not happy with these, i expected something that improved the epeen level we missed in TBC, but now we just get crap skills. Typhoon sucks, it should stun for 2 sec instead, or even 3, to help us get a free starfire cast. And starfall should be changed to Armaggeddon with same mech as d2 one.

Armaggeddon. Unleashes stars from heaven causing 500 damage each hit. After 20 stars, the duration is over and you can not use this skill again for 2 minutes. This ability gives 10% maximum mana back if you use it on moonkin form.

Improved Hurricane. While using Hurricane, you will regenate 3% mana per second.

Improved Insect Swarm. Reduce the targets armor by 10% and resistances by 25.

Hurricane. Unleash a hurricane, knocking target back 10 yards and stunning it for 3 sec. 40 sec CD.

Owlkin Frenzy. Your attacks in noobkin form have a 50% chance to make your next spellcast instant with no mana cost.

See? Those kind of talents is what i want, Kalgan!

And @you: OMG, PLEASE stop crying like a little baby. What you propose is having stuns, snares, knockbacks, and other really good abilities all over the place. Your owlkin frenzy change is so much over the top that i see it as sarcasm. Moonkins get a loot of improvement. Sure, there could be some more things in the late tiers, but nevertheless good moonkins (no offense, but you don't seem to be one regarding what you are missing) already are very good in pve and very viable in pvp. Sure, they don't top dps meters and they aren't THE arena spec but no one expected them to be as they are hybrids and have a lot more to offer than just pure dps. So please just stop the QQ all over the place or just make a wtf epeen rogue or something like that. Or (and actually i hate to say it) l2p.

[Panoramixe]

Well my restokin build was a rough draft, I don't have enough info yet on new gear etc.
But to some of your points:
Lunar guidance: I heard it would be about 20 spellpower per point at level 80, bit mediocre for 3 talent points.
Brambles was just a filler, if the damage of thorns is buffed enough to be a threat to rogues/melee in general it might be worth it.
Imp nature's grace is a bit lackbuster imo, 5 points is too much for a just a single root every minute.
Nature's reach is situational, depends a lot on your playstyle and the opposing team.
Vengeance might or might not be worth it depending on how resilience will work at lvl 80 and also on our gear.
Moonglow will help a lot with mana management, which might be an issue if you combine damage and healing.

As I said this is a more damage oriented build, it has the most important talents from resto. (swiftmend + natural perfection + NS), so the other talent points can be used for as much damage as possible.

I agree this build needs some rethinking when I get some lvl 80 info and it won't be a pure damage build. But it has potential.

[Ghrim]

It was not meant to be offensive

And as i said it is somehow ok regarding it is damage oriented but still i think that going deeper into moonkin if you want damage and rethink some of the balance talents if you want to help with heals is neccesary. I also agree that lunar guidance might become less important as it was cut a lot regarding how it works now and that it could turn out that moonglow is the better choice there. And hell you never know, maybe it really will be like half moonkins running around in healequip doing insane damage (in regard to nowadays damage in healequip) due to spellpower while still healing enough.

We will wait and see

[Sidders]

You don't deserve to post on the forums.
The moonkin changes are great

This ^

The changes are great, tho I guess people will complain about anything eh?

[PaleFolklore]

The Balance changes are great, true, but there are still some issues that need to be adressed:
1- Earth and Moon is incredibly weak for it's current talent point investment and tier. Either, give it a secondary effect, make it stack to 10% or make it 3 talent points.
2- Improved Moonkin aura doesn't stack with Wrath of Air Totem and is already considerably worse than WoAT, which is a baseline spell every single Shaman gets. I'd love to see Improved Moonkin Aura either, getting a different effect other than haste so that it can stack with WoAT, or getting an internal cooldown reduction (or effect duration increase).
3- Dreamstate and Lunar Guidance need to be merged, since both of them are incredibly weak in WoTLK (I also think the shaman's Dreamstate-like talent needs to be buffed aswell). This would make the talent a good option for 3 points and would also lessen the tree's bloating.

[Xcreed]

-Be- happy, it is a lot better than it used to be...