Penance and Dispersion...suck?

[frott]

If you're in beta, you know that shadow priests are fine.

Dispersion is 36% of your mana pool every 3 minutes for 6 seconds. If dots are "falling" in that time, you're doing something wrong.

Mind flay refreshes SWP. You can cast SWP once in a fight and it stays up the entire fight. Now imagine 2 or more simultaneous targets...

5% more damage to twin disciplines.

Haste and hit are common stats on crappy items now. You see it very frequently in the expansion, and have no problem hitting sweet spots.


Shadow priests will be desirable for 5s, 10s and 25s simply due to misery and the vamp embrace. In fact I see with the current damage increase we're seeing, VE is once again very strong and may in fact end up nerfed. Especially since our -aggro talents have been buffed.


You're also forgetting that you can only drink a pot ONCE PER FIGHT, where currently many classes still chug potions on top of spriests. Other classes getting some still yields an overall loss of mana regen because of potion nerf.

On top of all this, we have an inner focused' mind sear every 3 minutes for when you're dealing with swarms and non-ccable multi-pulls.



The DPS gain is major in WOTLK and we're much stronger at, say, 72 relative to other classes than we are currently. Of course once the itemization sinks in and our scaling kicks in it will be the same problem that it was pre-TBC as well as TBC.

[katholas]

So first reading the description of dispersion, i hated it, found it useful for pvp only. But i realized this can be a very strong talent in pve. There are multiple times when i could use 36% of my mana and health bak. This of boss fights where there is strong aoe dmg, use that time to get a bunch of health and mana bak.

I love this talent

I don't think i can recall the last time i said to myself "if only i had just a little bit more mana on that fight". I only have 2 points in meditation and i haven't chugged a mana pot since the very first time we killed council, in fact at this point i pop my shadowfiend on brut only for the extra DPS the mana just isn't an issue. And looking forward into WotlK this looks like it will be even MORE the case with the buff to judge wisdom and imp spirit tap and the emphasis on spirit.

When i first looked at this talent i was unbelievably disappointed. Of course you can't expect another end talent like VT that changes the whole class, but as of right now the only reason i will even take dispersion is because there isn't anything else to put that point into. I wish i had enough points to get to DS in disc cause i would take the extra spirit every time over dispersion. overall very very very underwhelming 51 point talent that oddly enough personally im only taking for the 90% damage reduction, that will actually be useful for things like encapsulate, dark barrage, or the last 10 seconds of burn.

[thethain]

Penance
51 point discipline Rank 4 (max), 30/40 yard range.
1395 mana
instant cast - 10 seconds cooldown
184 damage, or 670-756 healing every second for 3 seconds
Can be lowered to 8 seconds cooldown with Aspiration
Can proc Grace (up to 2% less damage taken, and 2% more healing done on target)
Affected by Improved Healing (up to 15% less mana cost on specific spells)
Damage portion affected by Searing light talent (up to 10% more damage on certain spells)
Can Proc inspiration (up to 25% more armor on target after a crit for 15 sec on certain spells)

OK, just to make a little point...
Penance Rank 1
715 Mana 30/40 yd range
Instant 10 sec cooldown
Launches a volley of holy light at the target, causing 184 Holy damage to an enemy, or 670 to 756 healing to an ally every 1 sec sec for 3 sec.

Notice that rank 1 does the EXACT same damage/healing as rank 4? Do you think that MIGHT signify that the later ranks haven't been finished?

Leave it to people to complain about a level 60(with level 80 mana cost) spell compared to a level 80 spell.

Also you happily ignored that Penance was also affected by Mental Agility (-10% mana cost).
And that you can use Inner Focus with it to make it 100% free(Just like you can use divine Favor with Holy shock)
Also left off it was affected by holy Specialization (5% crit)
Also left off it was affected by Twin Disciplines (5% damage/healing)
Also left off it was affected by Enlightenment (5% damage/healing)
Also left off it was affected by Divine Aegis (Crits stack a shield on target)
Also left off it was affected by Rapture (returns 2.5% of amount healed as mana)

[Manip]

I don't think i can recall the last time i said to myself "if only i had just a little bit more mana on that fight". I only have 2 points in meditation and i haven't chugged a mana pot since the very first time we killed council, in fact at this point i pop my shadowfiend on brut only for the extra DPS the mana just isn't an issue. And looking forward into WotlK this looks like it will be even MORE the case with the buff to judge wisdom and imp spirit tap and the emphasis on spirit.

That is certainly the case today.

But in order to return the same amount of mana we do today via VT in Wrath we'd need to do a massive 45% more DPS. Obviously that won't happen. So we will need things like Dispersion to pickup the slack.

When i first looked at this talent i was unbelievably disappointed.

Hmm... But even just in Brutallus the 90% damage reduction for 6 seconds is insanely good. I mean you get a burn you can make your healer's lives much easier for the last 15 seconds.

Plus you might be table to tank him for that period of time if you hit the enrage ;D

oddly enough personally im only taking for the 90% damage reduction, that will actually be useful for things like encapsulate, dark barrage, or the last 10 seconds of burn.

So oddly enough you're only taking the talent for its main strength? Hmm freaky...

It is a Shadow Priest's iceblock... That heals... And returns mana.

[Mandible]

OK, just to make a little point...
Penance Rank 1
715 Mana 30/40 yd range
Instant 10 sec cooldown
Launches a volley of holy light at the target, causing 184 Holy damage to an enemy, or 670 to 756 healing to an ally every 1 sec sec for 3 sec.

Notice that rank 1 does the EXACT same damage/healing as rank 4? Do you think that MIGHT signify that the later ranks haven't been finished?

Leave it to people to complain about a level 60(with level 80 mana cost) spell compared to a level 80 spell.

Also you happily ignored that Penance was also affected by Mental Agility (-10% mana cost).
And that you can use Inner Focus with it to make it 100% free(Just like you can use divine Favor with Holy shock)
Also left off it was affected by holy Specialization (5% crit)
Also left off it was affected by Twin Disciplines (5% damage/healing)
Also left off it was affected by Enlightenment (5% damage/healing)
Also left off it was affected by Divine Aegis (Crits stack a shield on target)
Also left off it was affected by Rapture (returns 2.5% of amount healed as mana)

complain? If you call that complaining you have an interesting definition of contructive criticism. Secondly - what makes you think I ignored those talents instead of having forgotten about them, or just not mentioned them?

But I guess I'm the one complaining .

[thethain]

My point remains that the spell does not even have an actual max rank yet.

Thats like going up to a house thats being constructed looking at the foreman and saying "Hey buddy if you don't patch that roof its going to leak." when the roof hasn't even been put on.

[Statix]

I've read nearly all posts in this topic and I just don't understand why all you Shadowpriests QQ so much. Spirit Tap has become a lot better.

Shadow Power now not only increases the critical strike chance of your Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death spells by 10%, it now also increases its critical strike damage bonus by 50%.

Improved Shadowform gives you a 70% chance to resist spell pushback, that's more than you had in the first place. So be happy with it, only thing Mages have for example is Ice Veins, which only lasts for a few seconds. You have a passive 70% to resist spell pushback, amazing!?

Then Pain and Suffuring, with 3 points in it, gives your Mind Flay a 100% chance to refresh the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain spell. This would make a lot of difference with your mana and also with your damage. You would no longer lose 2 seconds every 24 seconds in bossfights due to the fact you have to activate SW:P with the global cooldown. And on top of that, you take 60% less damage from your Shadow Word: Death spell. Now with the 50% added critical strike damage bonus and you taking 60% less damage from it, I'd say that makes it pretty powerful. One might actually be able to spam it, because of Vampiric Embrace.

And then we have Twisted Faith, which increases your Shadow spell damage by 30% of your total spirit. Even with only 200 Spirit, that's 70 extra spell damage, not to mention that your Mind Blast and Mind Flay do 5% more damage for every Shadow damage over time effects. With Mind Flay refreshing Shadow Word: Pain, you will always have a 5% increase in your damage, but add Mind Sear to that, you will have a 10% increases in your damage output for 5 seconds.

And last but not least, Dispersion, the Improved Ice Block for Priests. Like I said before, as a Mage, I would love to have this ability. So you can't attack or cast for 6 seconds, you only take 10% of the damage dealth to you and you gain 36% of your total health and mana in those 6 seconds, making Dispersion seem like Evocation aswell. Activating Dispersion with 15k health and mana will let you gain 5400 health and mana in those 6 seconds and because you only take 10% of the damage, that would mean that players/npcs will need to do 54k damage in order to make you actually not gain health while Dispersion is active.

Let's say you gain aggro from a boss in a raid and he will do 150k damage to you over 6 seconds (Don't know if any boss can do that, but just theorizing here). If you activate Dispersion, you would only take 10% of that damage, 15k. And, with you having 15k that would kill you if Dispersion didn't have a second effect. You also get healed for 6% of your health every 1 second for 6 seconds. So, by the time that boss has done 150k damage to you, Dispersion reducing it to only 15k, you will already have healed yourself for 5400 health, enabling you to survive the worst bosses for 6 seconds. If that raidboss wants to kill you, he would have to do a total of 204k damage over 6 seconds. Just think about what Blizzard has given you. God Mode.

Edit: Added Mind Sear to the calculation.

[Darkestdemon]

Lol if a boss is atking you then you are doing something wrong. On rare occasions like bb's fel rage it could be useful.

[Hanzan]

I've read nearly all posts in this topic and I just don't understand why all you Shadowpriests QQ so much. Spirit Tap has become a lot better.

Shadow Power now not only increases the critical strike chance of your Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death spells by 10%, it now also increases its critical strike damage bonus by 50%.

Improved Shadowform gives you a 70% chance to resist spell pushback, that's more than you had in the first place. So be happy with it, only thing Mages have for example is Ice Veins, which only lasts for a few seconds. You have a passive 70% to resist spell pushback, amazing!?

Then Pain and Suffuring, with 3 points in it, gives your Mind Flay a 100% chance to refresh the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain spell. This would make a lot of difference with your mana and also with your damage. You would no longer lose 2 seconds every 24 seconds in bossfights due to the fact you have to activate SW:P with the global cooldown. And on top of that, you take 60% less damage from your Shadow Word: Death spell. Now with the 50% added critical strike damage bonus and you taking 60% less damage from it, I'd say that makes it pretty powerful. One might actually be able to spam it, because of Vampiric Embrace.

And then we have Twisted Faith, which increases your Shadow spell damage by 30% of your total spirit. Even with only 200 Spirit, that's 70 extra spell damage, not to mention that your Mind Blast and Mind Flay do 5% more damage for every Shadow damage over time effects. With Mind Flay refreshing Shadow Word: Pain, you will always have a 5% increase in your damage, but add Mind Sear to that, you will have a 10% increases in your damage output for 5 seconds.

And last but not least, Dispersion, the Improved Ice Block for Priests. Like I said before, as a Mage, I would love to have this ability. So you can't attack or cast for 6 seconds, you only take 10% of the damage dealth to you and you gain 36% of your total health and mana in those 6 seconds, making Dispersion seem like Evocation aswell. Activating Dispersion with 15k health and mana will let you gain 5400 health and mana in those 6 seconds and because you only take 10% of the damage, that would mean that players/npcs will need to do 54k damage in order to make you actually not gain health while Dispersion is active.

Let's say you gain aggro from a boss in a raid and he will do 150k damage to you over 6 seconds (Don't know if any boss can do that, but just theorizing here). If you activate Dispersion, you would only take 10% of that damage, 15k. And, with you having 15k that would kill you if Dispersion didn't have a second effect. You also get healed for 6% of your health every 1 second for 6 seconds. So, by the time that boss has done 150k damage to you, Dispersion reducing it to only 15k, you will already have healed yourself for 5400 health, enabling you to survive the worst bosses for 6 seconds. If that raidboss wants to kill you, he would have to do a total of 204k damage to over 6 seconds. Just think about what Blizzard has given you. God Mode.

Edit: Added Mind Sear to the calculation.

You my man, got everything right down to the smallest detail. I really dont understand this thread tbh, Priests has gotten freaking good talents if u ask me. And they help alot just with crap gear. Like Statix said, even with 200spirit, ull get 70spell dmg. And Penance will prolly be good as a survive-ability and with talents itll be most usefull. Heard it gets 130% of ur Spell Power aswell....

[Freyros]

I agree that Dispersion is disappointing as the last talent in the tree. In pvp it will be useful, but in raids... Come on, if we could do without it in TBC, we will do without it in WotLK. Otherwise the holy priests (and other classes that don't have one) would get a similar "o sh*t button".

I vote for lowering this talent in the tree and making something more useful take its place as the final shadow talent.

[Warriorspwnwithhealer]

DO you even read the previous posts? The spell havent even got a freaking max rank yet, wait until t gets max rank theeen whine

[Freyros]

Aaaaand? Your point iiiiis? Do you seriously believe that the talent will become super-imba-cool for PvE with the next rank? :
Besides, I wouldn't be so sure the spell gets any other ranks, if I were you.

[Masptak]

Another Wotlk speculations crap topic... wait for full game mayby ?

[Freyros]

The answer is simple: something useful in PvE. Even what someone suggested here (+dmg for x secs, 3 min cd) would be better, although I'd like something better than a free trinket.

What's the point of stopping the DPS for 6 seconds? To get the mana that we don't need that much? Shadowpriests rarely have mana issues in the endgame now, and if they gonna have them in WotLK then this talent is a "sorry, we handicapped your class's mana regen, but here you are, a talent that can solve the problem".

[Statix]

What do Shadowpriests whine about the most in raids? That, when they pull aggro they have nothing to block it, only Fade. If that doesn't work, they die. Dispersion makes you survive.

QQ we don't get more damage. 50% critical strike damage bonus to Shadow Word: Death and Mind Blast? Twisted Faith for 70 bonus spell damage when you have 200 spirit? More Spirit, more damage! With Dispersion, mana isn't going to be an issue, so why not get gear with more Spirit. When you have 360 Spirit or so, you will get 120 extra bonus spell damage!

And what about the 5% extra damage for each Shadow damage over time effects, Shadow Word: Pain and Mind Sear for 5 seconds? With Mind Flay refreshing Shadow Word: Pain you will always have a 5% increase to your damage. As for what Freyros said, +damage for x seceonds, 3 min cooldown, take a look at Mind Sear. Blizzard said that the mana cost might be to much, so it'll probably become less. When you activate it, it'll not only damage your target itself for 5 seconds, but also increase your damage by 5% because it's a Shadow damage over time spell. How's that for your +10% damage + 183 to 197 Shadow damage modified by Spell Power for 5 seconds, no cooldown at all?

Twin Disciplines, 5% extra bonus damage? WTF, are you people whining about? You're getting a 10% increase to your damage from talents. And the spells themselves will do more initial damage, plus the fact that you get way better gear, increasing your bonus spell damage and thus your overall DPS.

You people expected to much from WotLK, making your class Godlike. Well guess what, you already have a Godlike ability in Dispersion. You just can't see it. Just take convert in the fact that no raid boss will be able to kill you while you have Dispersion up. QQ about dieing and not having anything to counter aggro and when you finally have something you don't want it.

Shadowpriests passively heal and replenish mana, ofcourse they are not going to be the main caster DPS in raids... What are you people thinking? That would make the class overpowered and raids wouldn't need Warlocks and Mages anymore. Really, Shadowpriests doing just as much damage and heal and replenish mana at the same time?

Don't make me laugh, you people should be happy with Dispersion and the other things you are getting. I would kill for those abilities as a Mage.

Might be more of the same as my previous post, but some people just don't get the awsomeness of their new abilities.

[Neverend]

The answer is simple: something useful in PvE. Even what someone suggested here (+dmg for x secs, 3 min cd) would be better, although I'd like something better than a free trinket.

What's the point of stopping the DPS for 6 seconds? To get the mana that we don't need that much? Shadowpriests rarely have mana issues in the endgame now, and if they gonna have them in WotLK then this talent is a "sorry, we handicapped your class's mana regen, but here you are, a talent that can solve the problem".

This is the post that blizzard needs to see ^

What do Shadowpriests whine about the most in raids? That, when they pull aggro they have nothing to block it, only Fade. If that doesn't work, they die. Dispersion makes you survive.

Wrong. Fade is perfectly fine. Even if you fail to stop dps in time (supremus for example) one fade is far more useful than dispersion as it will always take the aggro away if used correctly.

QQ we don't get more damage. 50% critical strike damage bonus to Shadow Word: Death and Mind Blast?

It's actually 50% of our current crit damage bonus. ie. pre wotlk our crits did 150% damage, now they will do 175% damage. This has been proven by beta testers on shadowpriest.com.

Twin Disciplines, 5% extra bonus damage? WTF, are you people whining about? You're getting a 10% increase to your damage from talents. And the spells themselves will do more initial damage, plus the fact that you get way better gear, increasing your bonus spell damage and thus your overall DPS.

Actually we're getting 20% increase to damage from talents, sadly all the other dps classes are also getting increases to damage from talents (at least 10%). Hey, at least it's gonna close the gap a little between us at 14th and that slacker boomkin at 13th on the dps charts.

[Statix]

Actually we're getting 20% increase to damage from talents, sadly all the other dps classes are also getting increases to damage from talents (at least 10%). Hey, at least it's gonna close the gap a little between us at 14th and that slacker boomkin at 13th on the dps charts.

I meant from the new talents.

[Neverend]

I meant from the new talents.

as opposed to?

so did i.

[Freyros]

What do Shadowpriests whine about the most in raids? That, when they pull aggro they have nothing to block it, only Fade. If that doesn't work, they die. Dispersion makes you survive.

Dispersion will only prolong your inevitable doom if you overaggro on boss fight, since it's not a threat dump ability and it's not like your Ice Block, that makes you unhittable for a period of time. Besides, it's clever playing that makes you survive, not the "o sh*t buttons".

[Nuronv]

Don't worry your local friendly paladin will have preempted you pulling aggro and cast Hand of Salvation on you. Its all a fine mesh of interwoven abilities