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  1. #1

    Last concern: Itemization

    Yo guys, but more important, hey, rawberry.

    I would like to ask you something, which seems to go untreated in these WotLK "leaks".

    Blizzard stated that warrs, DKs and palas will share the same itemization, which is all good and dandy. One thing bothers me though.

    DK are energy-ish based, warriors are rage based, paladins are mana based. Where do we get our intellect? it's ok to have 120938123 mana back from judgement of the wise but, with 1k mana pool it will be pretty impossible to dps or sustain a fight.

    Thank you in advance.

  2. #2
    ikillbigppl
    Guest

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    thats axualy a realy good question. to sustane good dps as a paladin i would expect u to need 6000 mana unbuffed then. unless they give intel on wrings necks things like that and only share that itemization on main armor parts. idk good question

  3. #3

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    Well it might not be a too big a problem. It's hard to say before having a chance to try out the beta but it seems at least some of the attacks you use in a rotation in PvE has a base mana % cost. DS - 20% base mana, CS - 8% base mana and judgements 5% base mana so your mana pool being small doesn't affect those spells too much at least.

  4. #4

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    yeah but you see, if i have a strict mana pool, i can't throw heals around, rendering sheath of light "side" effect useless.

    This thing is a really big question mark on the whole paladin thing. It's great, but the foundation is missing somehow, or at least, it has not been specified.

  5. #5
    ikillbigppl
    Guest

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    if they dont give some way to get more mana on a paladin and im seeing that jotw isnt keeping my mana up ill prob throw around some intel gems or wrings to help counter it... this might mean that paladins are going to have to pick gear diffrently now

  6. #6

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    Quote Originally Posted by Hasgart Holyhammer
    yeah but you see, if i have a strict mana pool, i can't throw heals around, rendering sheath of light "side" effect useless.

    This thing is a really big question mark on the whole paladin thing. It's great, but the foundation is missing somehow, or at least, it has not been specified.
    Well I could be wrong but isn't the healing buff from sheath of light more designed for PvP than for PvE? Not sure how much you need your healing capabilities in PvE. And since PvP gear usually provide some int and isn't shared across classes the low mana pool probably wont impact PvP rets as hard.

    All in all it's kinda hard to speculate before seeing end game itemization and the new PvP sets or tiers for that matter. My guess is that a big portion of the shared DPS plate will benefit DK and wars more than rets. In return there is probably some gear that are obviously made for pallies but not exclusive to them. Add a few pieces of tier pieces which will almost certainly have int on them and you should be fine. And if that isn't enough then maybe you can slip in a couple of PvP set pieces in the mix (if they are as stated the same way they are now they could be usefull in some regard at least).

    And ofc, like ikillbigppl said, you always have the option to gem and enchant for a little extra int.

    When all is said and done Pallies are hybrids and even though I play one I'd have to say that they are not meant to excell in all types of areas. With LK we will see a boost to ret so that we're no longer as useless as before (I hope) but let's not get too carried away. I'd hate it if other players started joking about every drop being "pallie weapon/armor kk!" instead of "hunter weapon!".

  7. #7

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    To be honest I don't think itemization is such a big issue any more with the upcoming changes.
    First of all most seals and judgments now scale much better with AP, secondly seals judgments, CS and Divine storm have a base mana cost.
    Now what does this translate into? Well I'm going to use my char as an example, right now unbuffed I have 5500 mana, from what I've seen most judgments cost a base 5% mana, so judging something will cost me 275 mana, if I were to have 7000 mana (I can reach that value raid buffed) then using a judgment would cost 350 mana.
    Now unbuffed I have 2090 AP, lets say I judge wisdom on a target, that gives me a chance to regain mana equal to 9% of my AP, 9% of 2090 means 188 mana.
    Now if I have 5500 mana and judge a target with wisdom it would cost me 275 mana, but I would get 188 mana back from an attack, but if I have 7000 mana and judge wisdom it costs me 350 mana and I only get 188 back from wisdom.
    Same thing for judgment of the wise, I'm going to use SoC as an example for my next calculation, so lets say I want to judge a target with command, with the new scaling calculation it will do 36% of my AP thats 752+ 30% weapon damage against an unstuned target, my average weapon damage is 1127 so it comes down to 332 damage for a total of 1090.
    Now 60% of 1090 is 654, if I have 5500 mana and I judge a target with command it costs me 5% of my mana thats 275 but I get 654 back from JotW, if I have 7000 mana it will cost me 350 to judge and I get 654 back.
    So as you can see having a smaller mana pool actually makes it easier to refill and makes it more robust.
    If this is the case then itemization won't be a problem at all, I could happily wear full warrior or DK DPS gear with no intellect and it would benefit me more since I would have more AP that means more mana back from judgment of wisdom and more mana from jotw.
    Of course I could be wrong and the mana cost of judgments is 5% of your base mana, however that still doesn't change the facts that you will get more bang for your buck if you wear warrior gear since it will have strength, which means more AP which still means more mana back.

  8. #8

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    Quote Originally Posted by Admuntour
    To be honest I don't think itemization is such a big issue any more with the upcoming changes.
    First of all most seals and judgments now scale much better with AP, secondly seals judgments, CS and Divine storm have a base mana cost.
    Now what does this translate into? Well I'm going to use my char as an example, right now unbuffed I have 5500 mana, from what I've seen most judgments cost a base 5% mana, so judging something will cost me 275 mana, if I were to have 7000 mana (I can reach that value raid buffed) then using a judgment would cost 350 mana.
    Now unbuffed I have 2090 AP, lets say I judge wisdom on a target, that gives me a chance to regain mana equal to 9% of my AP, 9% of 2090 means 188 mana.
    Now if I have 5500 mana and judge a target with wisdom it would cost me 275 mana, but I would get 188 mana back from an attack, but if I have 7000 mana and judge wisdom it costs me 350 mana and I only get 188 back from wisdom.
    Same thing for judgment of the wise, I'm going to use SoC as an example for my next calculation, so lets say I want to judge a target with command, with the new scaling calculation it will do 36% of my AP thats 752+ 30% weapon damage against an unstuned target, my average weapon damage is 1127 so it comes down to 332 damage for a total of 1090.
    Now 60% of 1090 is 654, if I have 5500 mana and I judge a target with command it costs me 5% of my mana thats 275 but I get 654 back from JotW, if I have 7000 mana it will cost me 350 to judge and I get 654 back.
    So as you can see having a smaller mana pool actually makes it easier to refill and makes it more robust.
    If this is the case then itemization won't be a problem at all, I could happily wear full warrior or DK DPS gear with no intellect and it would benefit me more since I would have more AP that means more mana back from judgment of wisdom and more mana from jotw.
    Of course I could be wrong and the mana cost of judgments is 5% of your base mana, however that still doesn't change the facts that you will get more bang for your buck if you wear warrior gear since it will have strength, which means more AP which still means more mana back.
    You have the right idea, but your definition of "base mana" is wrong. The term "Base Mana" refers to how much mana your character has before it is modified by Intellect, Enchants and other item effects. For a Paladin it is 2953 at level 70. So, in other words, a 6% base mana cleanse costs the same amount of mana for a Holy Paladin with 11,000 mana as it does a Retribution Paladin with 6,000 mana.

    Base mana only increases with your level, not your gear/enchants/gems.

    To answer the thread question, I don't foresee many mana problems with Paladins in general with the new talents and spells. Holy Paladins have Blessing of Wisdom and Illumination. Protection Paladins receive 10% mana from incoming heals (besides self heals). And Ret. Paladins have JotW and from what I've seen from YouTube, is pretty efficient in returning mana. Add all of that to the new Paladin base spell Divine Plea and the fact many other classes are getting party/raid mana returns, also (Shadow Priests, Survival Hunters, Shamans [totems], and probably more I'm missing).

  9. #9

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    Quote Originally Posted by Admuntour

    Now what does this translate into? Well I'm going to use my char as an example, right now unbuffed I have 5500 mana, from what I've seen most judgments cost a base 5% mana, so judging something will cost me 275 mana, if I were to have 7000 mana (I can reach that value raid buffed) then using a judgment would cost 350 mana.
    No, there's a reason it's called BASE mana.. I.e unbuffed mana.

    Smokeajay beat me to it, stupid customers taking up time!

  10. #10

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    Yes I know what base mana means, I even wrote after I did all that theory craft that most of my arguments would be null if spells cost a % of base mana, I didn't know at the time for sure if they would or would not.
    But in any case with the new active mana regen tools in place itemization doesn't look like its going to be a problem.

  11. #11

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    Because nobody has reached 80 yet the end-game itemization has not been revealed much so far. I can't say that I have any idea on how Blizzard is going to increase the manapools of us Paladins.

    We'll have to wait until people start raiding and start switching out their gear.


    [size=14pt]Read the: Paladin - Frequently Asked Questions[/size]

  12. #12

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    I'm pretty sure when they said it would be shared with Warriors and DK's that they had Ret/Prot in mind. There will have to be a seperate set of Plate gear for Holy Paladins (and there is definitely some while leveling) so I wouldn't worry too much.

  13. #13

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    I might be wrong on this but I remember reading something that said that our intel would scale with our attack power.

  14. #14

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    Ghosthunter: Spell Power scales with AP thanks to the talent: Sheath of Light

    -------

    I was testing ret spec last night. My gear is gorehowl/engy googles/misc purples from kara and pvp.

    I was dealing 870-900dps single target without any mana problems. That's just Seal of Command, Judgment of Wisdom, and Crusader Strike.

    The only real challenge I faced was a 71 elite named Valanar (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?quest=12019 ). Even in full ret gear, I was able to keep myself up with Holy Lights and anytime I thought I was going to run out of mana, Seal of Wisdom + Judgment of Wisdom would top me off.

    I can't speak for how things will be at 80, but at level 70 I didn't suffer for lack of int on my gear.

  15. #15

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    I honestly don't think there will be a problem with mana for ret at lvl80. At lvl70 i really don't have a BIG problem keep my mana up unless it's council fight in bt where it goes on and on and on. If i drop to about 40% i either pop a pot or switch to SoW for a bit.

  16. #16

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    I made a thread about this in the first day of the forum, and got 10000 posts about how were getting mana regen talents... and +spell power scaling with AP.... and I kept reiterating that that wasnt the issue.

    As of now, it appears we will have no mana pool increase through gear or talents, unless something changes.

  17. #17

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    Sounds like you are going to become rogues/warriors, in terms of low amounts of fuel but high regen then =P

  18. #18

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    I wouldn't be too concerned about it. I'm currently 77, with a 5400 mana pool. I am able to toss out emergency flash of lights and holy lights without a mana issue. Sure, we cant cast MANY heals in a row without going oom, but I can do something like flash, holy, judge and come pretty even (especially true when the judgement crits).

    I don't feel that we need a very large mana pool. Sheathe of light is amazing still for ret, as my heals do FAR more dmg, and if I get a crit, the HoT allows more time to dps between heals again should another heal be necessary.

    Long story short: It appears fine right now at level 77.

  19. #19

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    There is also one more thing to remember, not only do we have the new and shiny mana regen talents that allow us to go on and on, but we still have Spiritual Attunement, and I've noticed that on very AoE intensive fights my mana, even now doesn't drop.
    For example on Void Reaver and Illidari Council I almost never run out of mana because they do huge aoe damage and I get lots of mana back from heals, in WoTLK it could be even more insane, a particularly damaging boss could probably see me include divine storm and consecration into my DPS rotation, along side judgments, seals and CS.
    Well that is my opinion as a raider at least.

  20. #20

    Re: Last concern: Itemization

    I already include Consecration in my DPS rotation on boss fights, because I have enough mana...why wouldn't you in WotL?

    Even with a mana pool of 5K in my DPS gear, I have enough mana regen for Max Rank SoC, Judge, Consecration and CS.

    In the future with our Judgements of the Wise, and with the changes to JoW, if you *can't* include DS in your DPS rotation, we'll have to beat you

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