1. #1

    Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    Well honestly sometime I go hard time to understand Blizzard!!!

    Why they make a tank that will do the samething as us and from what I heard better ???
    I watch a few video and the way they make it and the way they say it , they will be able to tank group
    as a Prot pally and tank boss as a warrior >

    any commet to clarify the thing will be really appreciate?

  2. #2

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    I'd really suggest taking a closer look at the situation.
    Prot Pallies are, by all reports of the current beta build, ridiculous. They're godlike. They're more powerful than Bears were during the TBC launch. They trivialize the content they tank and turn learning fights into zerg fests. Their threat generation is incredible (much better than it is on Live), both in AoE and singles. Their damage mitigation is through the roof. Prot pallies, if anything, are looking at some (hopefully minor) nerfs.
    DK's are currently having some problems. A lot of DK's are reporting issues both in threat and survivability. Part of this is that there just isn't much tanking gear that people have been able to get their hands on, and DK's are somewhat more reliant on gear mitigation than other classes (imagine tanking as a druid without the high-armor leather, rings, etc, just using regular rogue leather). The new build may address these problems (it certainly looks hopeful), but DK's are currently trailing 4th in tank viability. This is likely to change, but that's where it seems to stand now.

    I honestly don't know where your concerns are coming from.
    Wow Forum accomplishment: autobanned for using the following phrase:
    My therapist notes my intrapersonal skills suffer from love of the grape.

  3. #3
    ikillbigppl
    Guest

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    death knights were never ment to be a melee tank. they were ment to be spell tanks. and no i dont mean how they get threat i mean the type of mobs they are strong agenst. look at their skills. THEY ARE spell tankers. so a death knight going to toe to toe agenst a melee mob isnt going to be as good as a paladin.

  4. #4

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    But as bliz said, in order to tank caster mobs you first need the ability to tank period... and they are Ideally given abilities and talents to let them tank anything but excel at tanking caster mobs.

  5. #5
    ikillbigppl
    Guest

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    Quote Originally Posted by yamilonewolf
    But as bliz said, in order to tank caster mobs you first need the ability to tank period... and they are Ideally given abilities and talents to let them tank anything but excel at tanking caster mobs.
    blizz alsow said they are going to change how tanking works. u can allready see that in the new threat... name 1 tank that can tank a melee mob without a shield ( not druids because they get the armor threw bear ) death knights with no shield will not be able to sustane much melee tanking beffor they die... thats probably whats going on now.


    they will probably be used in raids as off dps untill caster pulls then - then tank after go back to some dps.

  6. #6

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    Ahh, but frost Presence gives 45% more armor, and... after doing some math from my guild's best warrior and Pally, Them with out a sheild *1.45 = their armor with sheild. (It was very close anyway, ) So deathknights lose out on the ability to block, and gain more parries... It's gonna be a level playing field anyway.

  7. #7
    ikillbigppl
    Guest

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    Quote Originally Posted by yamilonewolf
    Ahh, but frost Presence gives 45% more armor, and... after doing some math from my guild's best warrior and Pally, Them with out a sheild *1.45 = their armor with sheild. (It was very close anyway, )
    u are forgeting the mitigation / stats shields alsow give. i just dont see death knighs be nearly as good as the other tanks on melee mobs. if they are they might as well say good bye to all other tanks.

  8. #8

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    I didn't come here to argue with pallies I <3 pallies, But just because DKs may not be perfect for melee mobs doesn't mean they can't do the job, With bonuses to parries and the (aproximite) same armor as a sheildwearer, they should be fine, and remember, 2 handers generally have better stats then 1 handers so the stats from a shield should almost be somewhat equal too.

    For example, Lets take a pally tank and a deathknight to the items that drop in Zul'aman.

    The pally's choice would probably be (note: after expansion so you probably don't need a spell damage weapon any more)

    http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33476 - 1 handed axe.
    http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33326 - Sheild
    where as stealing from a hunter :P the deathknights weapon choice would be http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33492- troll bane.
    This gives the Pally a bonus of
    15 stam
    20 parry rating
    12 hit rating
    + sheild stats (block value and block rating)
    vs the dks
    39 agi
    and Lots of attack power. (and higher weapon damage)
    Thats somewhat close to being equal.

    To offer another example. On live, Im a feral druid, and I know one of druid's biggest sore spots is a lack of magical mitigation, Does that stop me from tanking mobs that cast? Either raid ones or Heroic MGT. No! I may not be as good at it, But nothing stops me from doing it. And unless im mistaken DK's Aren't gonna be too great at multiple mobs tankings, where as pallies will still be kings. Relax deathknights Aren't gonna steal your tank spot. All the tanks have a strength and im not going to argue that dks will be the best at tanking casters. All tanks have a weakness but that doesn't stop them from tanking other things...

    TLDR: there is no reason a DK who knows what hes doing can't tank anything he tries to.

  9. #9

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    Well I heard it was for caster boss too,

    It's only even now after 2 years of BC well in the horde, tha prot pally start to make is way as a tank and sadly they already
    put another tank on to get another spot, it's not to be mean but I'm pretty sure all prot pally are able to be the MT of a guild with out problem
    with the 8 block we got from holy shield ( yeah I know they will put it at 4 :'( )

    But why put another tank that can tank AOE???

    they should just make the Death Knight as a DPS or a new healer and put more magic resist to any other tank,

    like Spell Warding - with 2 pts = Reduce the spell dommage taken by 4% what is that crap give us at least 10% and even there I dont know if I will spend pts on it! with the 4% is 400 less dommage on a 10k bolt all the healer at lvl 70 will see no difference !

    But at the Bliz con they said the DK will be able to tank like a pally and a warrior! why they say that,

  10. #10

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    all tanks will be able to aoe tank better now, DK got Death and Decay with longer cooldown than the duration, helps just a bit. Warrior gets shockwave. Druids got swipe, dunno what else. But paladins will still be the ultimate aoe tank, nothing is gonna change that. They are just making the retarded pug tanks better at handeling more than 1 mob at the time. Ie less need of CC in 5mans.

    DKs need to be able to tank anything in the game, that means they need to be able to tank melee mobs aswell, maybe not as good as other classes but still be able to do so. Would it be fun to be tank spec and only be able to tank certain bosses? No.

    And atm prot paladins in beta are awesome, their new abilities does shitloads of threat (their threat was pretty good in tbc already) atm prot paladins seems to be the best tank of all the classes who can tank. They got a 20% slow which doesnt need to be reapplied during a boss, huge plus compared to thunderclap. Got the highest +stamina talents, couple that with only taking warrior gear, they will have more hp than warriors but with the same migtation!

    While DK got problems with threat and surviving. I dont see what you are whining about.

    Oh yeah, i did some calculation. A bt/hyjal warrior/pala got like 10k (maybe 11k) armors +6k from shield thats 16k, while DK 10k + 45% is only 14,5k armor. thats counted before talents.

  11. #11

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    its quite possible that DK tanking (and the apropriate gear/talents) aren't in the final form yet, after all its a beta.

    Blizz also said DKs would be dualwield tanking, sofar only 2h using deathknights are any viable due to the hit needded for offhands.

    Can imagine them getting a talent like this: increases your chance to hit while dualwielding by X% but reduces their damage by Y% when dualwielding and increasing your threat by (Y*2)%

    a talent like that would adress 2 parts of DW tanking, it requiring more hit and dks producing to low threat. The Y% dualwield melee damage is to prevent the talent to be abused for dps (in wich 2handers seem to be better anyway for DKs)

  12. #12

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    Pallies were never meant to be Caster Mob tanks, ever, I don't get where the OP is getting that idea from.

  13. #13

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    From what I see it every tank should have his strengths and weaknesses, but they shouldn't fall in to the extreme of being good only for one situation or another.
    In my opinion warriors, druids, paladins and death knights should all be able to tank in raids equally well but each should have a certain strength, like Death Knights will be preferable for tanking caster mobs, paladins will be preferable for tanking many mobs at once, and all tanks should be able to tank a boss more or less the same, though warriors would still probably be the favorites.
    It would suck really hard if Death Knights where only good at tanking heroics and casters in raids, then almost no one would play them because the main glory of a tank is to get to tank a boss.
    So don't worry Death Knights won't be stealing your raid spot, paladins will still be aoe tank kings, but when it comes to tanking casters, Death Knights will reign supreme, and that is the way it probably should be.

  14. #14

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    i dont understand why anyone is complaining. On my server its hard enough to find a tank (the reason my prot pally is nearly 70) I welcome the idea of adding another class that can tank.

    Its supply and demand, not enough tanks, add another one...

  15. #15

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Stenhord
    And atm prot paladins in beta are awesome, their new abilities does shitloads of threat (their threat was pretty good in tbc already) atm prot paladins seems to be the best tank of all the classes who can tank. They got a 20% slow which doesnt need to be reapplied during a boss, huge plus compared to thunderclap. Got the highest +stamina talents, couple that with only taking warrior gear, they will have more hp than warriors but with the same migtation!
    This statement is probably one of the most accurate to date. Prot Pally is currently the best single boss tank, dmg mitigator and AoE tank.

    1. Single tanking - Hammer of righteousness (this move makes it impossible for a prot to lose threat on 1v1 tanking even if they tone down consecration. It causes "high threat", it's every 6 secs, it bypasses armor). and Shield of righteousness - Slam the target with your shield, causing Holy damage equal to 200% of your block value. This spell causes a high amount of threat.
    6% of base mana, 5 yd range, Instant cast, 6 sec cooldown

    2. AoE Gods, that will never change D&D isn't constant like consecration. This does not even offer any type of competition.

    3. Prot paladins also have "judgement of the just" and A shield wall spammable every 4 mins to reduce dmg taken by 50% for 12 secs.


    I can tell you as a prot warrior who has been fighting for a yr to get SW CD reduced to 5 mins from 30 mins, Last Stand reduced from 10 mins to 3 mins and thunderclap dmg linked to strength rather than magic (as it was previously) that the 2 things that made warrior exceptional and necessary tanks were the issue of uncrushability and our "oh shit" emergency buttons - SW & LS w/thunderclap & demo always up.

    LS has now gone to Ferals w/5 mins CD so it can be used twice in any boss fight in 10-25 man raids. It's buffed to make them immune and as we all know the average Sunwell feral has 25k HP buffed while warriors have 21k HP buffed and not nearly as much as the 30k-35k armor feral has to our 17k-18k.

    Prot Paladin will have equal armor and more HP (16% stamina in talents "sacred duty" and "combat expertise") to warriors 5% from vitality lol In addition, the other warrior ultimate & unique ability shield wall has been given to the prot Paladin w/a 4 mins CD - reduces dmg taken by 50% for 12 secs AND ur Lay of Hand "will not" use up all your mana anymore.

    Ret paladin dps is now insane while they bring utility to heal the raid from dps and regen mana. Holy paladins can HoT, innervate/evocate themselves to get 50% mana back and use tranquillity like group heal (while resto druids can die doing this due to threat, Holy paladins can bubble and do it successfully).

    I seriously do not understand your concern bcos as it stands you're playing the best class in this game. Each spec has incredible survivability, healing and dmg potential it's crazy for every 10 man and 25 man raid not to have 1 of each in every encounter. I personally love tanking as a warrior but the uniqueness is gone for us cos once LS & SW were taken and divided up btwn 2 other classes, it preety much makes the Prot Tank useless. Any grp needing tanks just bring Prot pally (MT), Feral and DK OTs cause those 2 can do competitive dps to regular melees without having to go switch gear etc. and with spellpower so can the prot pally. You really have no worries.

  16. #16

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    @ comparisons to warriors vs paladins tanking.
    you havn't seen the class specific gear yet so don't go assuming.

  17. #17

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    Well I was kinda worried cause on my server '' Eonar '' we are like 15 guild that do the end game content and for now my guild are at the Vashj learning,
    and Like I was saying we need about 2 or 4 tank per guild and well I dont know if it'S because I'm on the horde side, but prot pally still have hard time to make their place, and I was sure their was enough tank on the game but well look like we can take other and I just wich to not losing my place as a tank, cause I got another prot pally on my guild and most of the time he is off healer ( I'm pretty sure he hate that ^.^ ) and well it's a game and it's there to have fun.

    Well guys, everything u told me show me how pally gonna keep up in the WotLK

    Thx a lot

  18. #18

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    Sephirote, then your raid leader needs to pull the tree out of his rear.

    I've been prot since lvl 45 tanking ZF waaay pre-BC, before they fixed the gearing issues. The hardest period was when my old guild started to do MC and BWL. That was the point my gear could not keep up as well as with a warrior. Then BC came out and Blizz fixed it.

    I've tanked nearly every fight in the game. MT'd Illidan, and MTing Kalecgos and Brut.

    You might be in a bind since our class is fairly gear dependant, but we can tank everything in the game as far as I've seen. Yes some fights are more suited to a warrior tank, but we can do those easily enough as well.

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    447

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    Death Knights will be very competent melee tankers due to mitigation in their Parry. Druids could get 50 - 60% dodge in BC, Death Knights will get similar amount in Parry PLUS additional mitigation through dodge. They have triggered talents that increase armor/mitigation and they have a 60 sec CD that reduces all damage they take by 50% for 12 second. The can freeze surrounding mobs indefinitely as long as they have runic power, they can slow down the attack speed of mobs by 15%, and they have a talent which has a 15% chance to proc and reduce the attack speed of a mob by 50%.

    However, their ability to surpass Paladins in AoE tanking is unlikely. They have a few very nice AoE abilities, however, they do have rather long CDs. Also, they do not have the innate additional threat on the damage dealt by them like Paladins Righteous Fury adds. Next -- Ardent Defender will kick in if you're tanking a billion mobs reducing your damage by an additional 30% allowing you to be healed much easier. The only thing they'll have will be the 50% less damage CD for 12 sec, and it will be 48 seconds of full damage again -- Thus they will ultimately fail to tank the number of mobs a Tankadin could pull off tanking.

    That said, they will definitely be the 2nd best AoE aggro holding tanks in the game, the #1 caster tanks in the game (especially if they make Anti-Magic Shield prevent secondary effects/debuffs from spells casts while it is active rather than just reducing damage by 75%), and the #1 damage dealing tanks in the game. Thus, they're pretty OP.

    You should stick to Paladin though, so many improvements and the people here talking about them being Godlike tanks in the beta are not lying. Even their single target threat generation cannot be surpassed by any of the other tanks at the moment. The reason being that Hammer of Righteousness and Shield of Righteousness are pure Holy damage and get benefit from Righteous Fury -- They can do A LOT of damage with these two abilities. Thus, the threat is multiplied much like armor is multiplied for Druids in Bear Form resulting in some pretty nasty single target threat generation.

  20. #20

    Re: Prot Pally-vs- Death Knight ???

    i dont think dk will ever be in line in terms of migration against melee dmg when you compare the class to all the "old" ones

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