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  1. #41

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Seal of Righteousness in Wotlk is gonna be 5% of AP + 10% of SP times attack speed
    lets say u have 2000 AP 600 SP (Sheath of Light) and 3.5 attack speed
    2000x0.05 = 100
    600x0.1 = 60
    160x1.15 (3 Stack Vengeance) = 184
    184x3.5 = 644 damage per swing and this is WITHOUT the holy talent improvement (740 with it)

    SoB = weap dmg x .35
    lets say ur hitting 900-1000 with 3 vengeance, thats 362-402 per swing

    so obviously SoR easily beats SoB and the Seals of the Pure talent would be good for PVE

  2. #42

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    I'dd say something like this:
    http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...13503105201351

    But well, I'm not a pala so q:

  3. #43

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    The only reason I wouldn't get blessing of kings is because I have improved blessing of might. Why would I be giving out kings when I have improved might? Anyways, like the other folks have said. There should be other paladins in the raid to bless you with kings.

  4. #44

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Blizz have said, a couple of times now that they want each classes trees to be slightly bloated to avoid everyone having the same spec (will link the blue post when i find it). There were also a lot of people saying that rets were bloated. These were only PVP'ers, for PVE'rs ret tree is a bit anorexic. If you choose only pve talents you are left with several points http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000

    This build includes benediction, which isnt really worth it, and pursuit which has only limited pve benefits. There are still points left over- so not bloated, not even close.

    I think we need Art of war to have a pve component. You can leave the pvp aspect as it is but also add 1% hit per talent spent. This makes up for the loss of precision and helps pve'rs without losing the pvp bit (though i would be happy to :P).
    Statistically speaking, you are an average player. Learn to live with it.

  5. #45

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    What about the mana pool in pve fights? Does it run out so easy in a fight or have they fixed that.

    I normaly went for this quind of setup for my retri paladin
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000

    I counted on that my mana pool would eventualy depleted and then i casted lay on hands on the MT. Drank some mana pot en casted judgment of wisdom + seal of wisdom to keep continue fighting.

    If the mana pool isn't any problem, then i would go with this build.
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000

    There was a question about why to put points in imp retri aura
    - Improved Sanctity Aura renamed Sanctified Retribution, now causes all units affected by Retribution Aura to cause 2% more damage.
    so eventualy you will be using the retribution aura all the time.

    EDIT: My first tallent build was the wrong one.

  6. #46

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    I wonder if this spec will work?...

    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZt...ZVfMtr0uAGoMzh

  7. #47

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Quote Originally Posted by zjz_05
    I wonder if this spec will work?...

    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZt...ZVfMtr0uAGoMzh
    Not for PVE, ever. And for PVP you really want to have Divine Storm.


    [size=14pt]Read the: Paladin - Frequently Asked Questions[/size]

  8. #48

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Some basics that apperently none of you non-beta people realise:

    everything scales with attack power, you have infinite mana with seals of the wise, judgements are your main source of damage. Frankly, I have points in stoticsm and the rest in ret, only talents I skipped are benediction, deflection, and art of war off the top of my head, you really want to fill the ret tree out.

  9. #49

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Quote Originally Posted by smichels
    Seal of Righteousness in Wotlk is gonna be 5% of AP + 10% of SP times attack speed
    lets say u have 2000 AP 600 SP (Sheath of Light) and 3.5 attack speed
    2000x0.05 = 100
    600x0.1 = 60
    160x1.15 (3 Stack Vengeance) = 184
    184x3.5 = 644 damage per swing and this is WITHOUT the holy talent improvement (740 with it)

    SoB = weap dmg x .35
    lets say ur hitting 900-1000 with 3 vengeance, thats 362-402 per swing

    so obviously SoR easily beats SoB and the Seals of the Pure talent would be good for PVE
    I am alliance so I don't know about SOB but, as a Ret the rub on SOR was that it didn't crit as SOC did.  Giving it a chance to proc.  Vengeance.   Plus Crits with SOC x2 and JOC x2 where JOR x1.5... I have to assume SOB can crit off melee crit chance... if so your numbers are a little off.

    I also disagree with your 900-1000 with 3 vengeance.  Not even accurate now.
    using a level 78 blue

    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...mithing_23.jpg

    535.5 average weapon damage + 514 from AP on 3.6 weapon speed = 1049.5 x 1.15 = 1206.925 x .35 = 422.4 x .65 = 274.5 for non crit (35% base) and 422.4 x 2 x .35 for crit = 295.7 + 274.5 = 570 average. 

    This doesn't include raid buffs that will affect crit or AP.

    If using 

    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ldestroyer.jpg

    Which I don't think will be too hard to get your numbers would look more like this (W/O raid buffs)

    634 average weapon damage + 485.7 from AP on a 3.4 weapon speed  = 1119.7 x 1.15 = 1287.7 x .35 = 450-7 x .65 = 292.9 and 450.7 x 2 x .35 = 315.5 + 292.9 = 608.4

    Given no raid buffs and assuming all numbers are correct and SOB can crit you are still correct, though not as overwhelmingly (not sure if that is a word) as your post originally implies. However, given all the raid buff in Wotlk I don't think SOR will hold up against SOB... Wait and See?

  10. #50

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    For PvP i will be using this if nothing changes: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...13532130231301

    And for PvE i will probably be using: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...13533105231051 with one point to stick up my ass
    I might put that point into more SoV damage, i heard that SoV will proc of every hit now, so you could stack it up to 5 and then switch between SoVeangeance/SoMartyr, just to keep SoV ticking.

  11. #51

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    BG: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000
    Arena:
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000
    Is what I would go with.

    My reasoning is:

    Protection's 18 Points: Improved HoJ is priceless in PVP. It is one of our best talents, you can't really do serious ret without this. 1 point in Anticipation is ther to access HoJ, some people choose the 2% armor, personally, I think 1% dodge is a bit more valuable.

    Tier 1: Benediction is useless with JotW. Imp Might gives us a 50% boost to might which is big, I believe that is about 250 AP which is like 90 SP.

    Tier 2: Deflection is nice, but there is no room for it. HotC and Imp Judgment is almost necessary, and a big DPS boost.

    Tier 3: The whole tier is useful. Vindication as 2/2 with 20% is awesome. a person with 10,000 hp, loses like 2,000 hp + mana + damage they will be able to do making it an awesome talent. PoJ is the only thing we have to make us less kiteable, personally I'd like to see it at 20% but it's still useful.

    Tier 4: Eye for an Eye is very situational. If your getting hit, it's wonderful, since it counts crits resisted because of resilience as well. If you are ignored however, it's a wasted 2 points. In BGs EfaE can be fun and useful, but I think in Arena you probably won't be focused on as much, unless it's 2v2. So for larger arena groups, I'd put 1 point into Crusade, if you think your gonna be hit a lot, EfaE might be worth it. Imp Ret Aura seems like too minor of a talent to be worth it for PVP, maybe PVE.

    Tier 5: Two Handed Weapon Spec, I seriously can't see 6% extra white damage being that useful over some other things. SR and SoL are just too good and too cheap to pass up

    Tier 6: Vengeance and Judgements of the wise are just too good to pass up. However Vengeance in Arena might be kind of hard to stack if your facing high resilience people. I might try passing it up and taking 3 Crusade / 2 2H Weap instead, I'd have to test the results. JotW is a requirement though.

    Tier 7: Sanctified Seals 2/3. I put it at 2/3 because I hear that appearently if you have it at 3/3 dispels pass over your seals and dispell something else, this way they'll attempt to dispel the seal, but may fail. Repentance is our only real form of CC other than HoJ. Divine Purpose offers too little to be of consideration

    Tier 8: Fanaticism 5/5, you will probably have a natural crit of around 30% so with this it would be 55% and you gotta admit that is awesome, especially when JoC can crit for up to 7k. No need to explain Sanctified Wrath.

    Tier 9: Considering you can't get yourself out of a stun and it doesn't cause immunity to stuns, the new art of war is just too little to be considered viable :/ if they made it immunity to stuns, then I'd get it. Swift Retribution is fun for the whole family, in the BG build it's only 2/3 to allow for EfaE.

    Tier 10: Nuff said.

    Tier 11: Storms' a comin...

    Well tell me what you think.

  12. #52

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    @ kohakx

    here is my build:
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000

    I agree with you a lot. However, I disagree with you some.

    Eye for an eye is good. I want to take it but I think Divine Guardian is much better. I had to sacrifice something. I really want crusade too... But you have to make some tough choices.

    2h weapon specialization is huge... never ever ever pass it up. 6% from your white source damage, SOC(70% weapon damage), JOC(30% Weapon and 60% if stunned), CS (110% weapon), and DS (instant weapon attacK). Always up can never be taken away regardless of your aura.

    In pvp you will almost always judge justice.

    In pvp you will change aura shadow (UDK,Preist, Lock), frost (Mage, FDK), devotion (Warrior, Pallies, Hunter) Fire (Lava burst Shamans and some mages) sometimes retribution (DW mainly DK, Rogue, Enhancment shaman, druid) if you are low on health you might want devotion on the DW as well. My point... 1 point in 2h weapon is better than 1 point in improved ret aura. With push back changes I don't see concentration helping that much unless you are holy.

    I guess the main reason I don't put any points into improving ret aura is that if you change it you won't gain the benefit of 4-6 talent points. And you shouldn't use ret aura exclusively.


  13. #53

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Two handed weapon specialisation for pvp is huge waste.
    And you are incorect , JOC is not 30% of weapon dmg but of attack power. That means that 6% more dmg only goes to white crits , seal of command and divine storm. Not affecting judgements and other spells. Sanctified retribution is 1 point for 2% more all dmg spells and attacks. You can spent that points else where.
    And swift retribution sux for pvp , it is pve buff. For 2x2 3x3 and even 5x5 its realy minor and useless.

    Art of war will be very usefull in small arenas. Like if u play with rogue u can remove cheap shot of other rogue from your rogue without use of Hand of protection.



    Arena : http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...13532135201311

    Huge survivability , huge utility and good burst. Eye for an eye 9% less dmg from everything 5% less dmg to be hit by anything. Hard to kite.

    PvE Raid dps : http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...13533105231051

    Keep seal of vengance / corruption dots on target ticking and use seal of blood / martyr. Max dmg build.

  14. #54

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000
    would be a bit better I think.

    Personally I think that the critical bonus damage increase to judgments by 25% is huge.

    normally JoC = 3000 x 2 (crit) = 6000
    with RV Joc = 3000 x 2.25(crit) = 6750. That's like an extra hit.

    I personally don't like art of war, and I will have to test it personally, but for right now I'd pick it over Divine Purpose.

  15. #55

  16. #56

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Nice for PVE. I'd assume that is the purpose.

  17. #57

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Quote Originally Posted by kohakx
    Nice for PVE. I'd assume that is the purpose.
    I don't ever pvp unless i am really bored one night or if i need the season gloves, if they keep the 5% cs on new season.

  18. #58

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Quote Originally Posted by kohakx
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000
    would be a bit better I think.

    Personally I think that the critical bonus damage increase to judgments by 25% is huge.

    normally JoC = 3000 x 2 (crit) = 6000
    with RV Joc = 3000 x 2.25(crit) = 6750. That's like an extra hit.

    I personally don't like art of war, and I will have to test it personally, but for right now I'd pick it over Divine Purpose.
    thats more like drop in the ocean Are those really legit numbers what you expect paladins to do with judgements?

    p.s how in hell i get rid of these little cunts

  19. #59

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Quote Originally Posted by StormScion
    Two handed weapon specialisation for pvp is huge waste.
    And you are incorect , JOC is not 30% of weapon dmg but of attack power. That means that 6% more dmg only goes to white crits , seal of command and divine storm. Not affecting judgements and other spells. Sanctified retribution is 1 point for 2% more all dmg spells and attacks. You can spent that points else where.
    And swift retribution sux for pvp , it is pve buff. For 2x2 3x3 and even 5x5 its realy minor and useless.

    Art of war will be very usefull in small arenas. Like if u play with rogue u can remove cheap shot of other rogue from your rogue without use of Hand of protection.



    Arena : http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...13532135201311

    Huge survivability , huge utility and good burst. Eye for an eye 9% less dmg from everything 5% less dmg to be hit by anything. Hard to kite.

    PvE Raid dps : http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...13533105231051

    Keep seal of vengance / corruption dots on target ticking and use seal of blood / martyr. Max dmg build.
    I don't understand why 2h weapon specialization isn't very important. JOC does use weapon damage (.30MW + .36 AP and +.58 SP) according to this site... Unless its changed? Ret aura should not be up most of the time in an arena and swift retribution does sux for pvp I never said other wise. Furthermore, 6% damage "only white damage, DS, SOC" which you didn't mention CS and I think you arewrong about JOC (again according to this site). Represents almost all of your damage and is up all of the time regardless of aura.

    Have you seen the new Aura's 130!!! That is a 24% increased chance to resist frost nova or 24% increased fear resistance not to mention the 32% of damage absorbed. I am not good with resitance calculations so forgive my math but I can't see using ret arua against, frost and shadow casters or fire mages/fire shamans thus losing your 2% talent point in pvp.

    I like eye for an eye but I am debating whether it is more arena and raid viable than Devine Guardian. You become a super sl warlock pet for your arena team and or raid for 12 sec. IMO this can make or break a match even if you have it up and have to cc the priest instead of using it to heal. It remains to be seen if eye4eye is better than that.

    I am not sure about the art of war... You can't cast it while cc'd. I also think you are over estimating the value of devine purpose as making your hard to kite (I could be wrong ) the combination of Divine purpose and persuit of justice plus resitance aura might make you much harder to kite.

    I am also not sure about only taking 1/5 into righteous vengeance. With a 50% crit from your judgments and at most 12-13% reduction from resilience you will still crit enough to make 4 more point here worth it especially since it is now tied to your mana returns.

  20. #60

    Re: Best RET Wotlk talent builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Karpalo
    thats more like drop in the ocean Are those really legit numbers what you expect paladins to do with judgements?

    p.s how in hell i get rid of these little cunts
    I think he is using the stuned/disorinted numbers. I get with 2k ap and 600 sp and using http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ldestroyer.jpg with 6% in 2h specialization.

    (507 x 1.06) x .3 + 2000 x .36 + 600 x .58 =1229 x2 (stun) x 2 crit = 4880
    (761 x 1.06) x .3 + 2000 x .36 + 600 x .58 =1310 x2 x 2 = 5239

    Theory craft with only 2000k ap at 80 is probably way low and I don't know if the weapon damage is accounted for after AP or before. If after AP then the numbers would look like this again a 80 would have a higher AP I think.

    992 x 1.06 x .3 +2000 x .36 + 600 x .58 = 1383 x 2 x 2 = 5534
    1246 x 1.06 x .3 + 2000 x .36 +600 x .58 = 1464 x2 x2 = 5857


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