View Poll Results: Reckoning is good for prot pally?

Voters
52. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes, it is!

    21 40.38%
  • no, it's not !

    16 30.77%
  • I really dont know!

    9 17.31%
  • Let's move it to Retadin talent for PVP

    6 11.54%
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  1. #1

    A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    Yep I was asking my self if Reckonning could be good!

    I never try it cause when I start some of my friend told me that : For the 8sec that reck proc u are not able to Block, parry or dodge, cause it's like a berserk.

    Want to know the most opinion about it and most of people dont like to take time to answer, that's why i make the poll

    thx for your answer guys !!

  2. #2
    High Overlord
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    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    I really really doubt it has any effect on your block, dodge, parry, because thats pretty major and would note in the tooltip. Also, theres nothing about that on the buff info from wowhead.
    Quote Originally Posted by ipresskeys View Post
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    What a bunch of bullshit.
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  3. #3

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    My fucking god, how stupid are you guys in RR?

    Not every raiding Paladin takes it, but it is a truly worthwhile talent, especially stacked with Seal of Wisdom/Judge of Wisdom, especially in Heroic 5 mans or ZA where there's just not enough damage being down to you to heal through so you need to recoup mana somehow.

    It doesn't effect your mitigation in the slightest. I mean honestly, who told you that? Your Paladins started failing after your officers left.

  4. #4

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    according to some research done by someone (not myself) based on a 3/5 reckoning >> massive theorycraft inc.

    "Because 6% proc is alot more than you think.

    Its all in the math and probability.


    This is all a rough estimate but its a fair example.
    6% means It will activate within 1 in 20 hits.
    Brutalis hits about 20 times in 10 seconds, including MH and OH.
    I will have 60% avoidance, but due to the sunwell buff on the boss, I will only have 35%. So lets just say on average I will dodge 1 in 3 attacks.
    That means I will take 12 out of 20 or so hits in 10 seconds.
    12 out of 20 chance that Reckoning will proc within those 10 seconds.
    Understand that reckoning is not a instant effect, but a duration effect. Reckoning last 8 seconds, giving you a additional hit every attack within a maximum of 4 extra attacks. This also means it can reproc while it is still active and I assure you this happens frequently.

    For 1% more static damage, thats aproximately 2% more threat at the most. So if I'm doing a average of 1.5k TPS(which is probably the most I can do for a long period of time) , it would add a total of 30 TPS. Simple enough. Looking at my seal of righteous, everytime I land a successful hit on a enemy. It does weapon damage + holy damage. Most of the time its around 100 white damage + 145 Holy damage. With modifiers and etc, it boils down to 365 Tps per a swing. My swing timer is 1.8.

    1 sec/1.8 swing timer = 55%
    365 * 55% = 201 TPS /second

    So when reckoning procs, I get a 201 TPS boost.

    Now, I said reckoning procs 12/20 every 10 seconds against brutalis which is basically 60%.
    201 TPS * 60% = 120 TPS

    My hit isnt maxed, I'm missing 1% so its about 118 TPS including the 1% chance to miss.

    Now I don't know the exact chance for a boss to parry/dodge me but give or take its going to be around 10%.

    So taking 10% off ...

    we get 106 TPS

    Lets just throw in another 15% chance of the holy damage to be resisted and we get 90 TPS.

    Now I know that my calculations aren't solid, but I am using the worst possible scenario (for reckoning). and if you take a look a the numbers of 90 TPS vs 30 TPS. You can figure this out. Granted 30 TPS is static and the 90 TPS can fall a bit lower and or higher at some intervals, but I feel that reckoning is the winner here.

    Now lets take a look at improved judgement. I had 2 in those point previously but I have learned that it does not make as big as a difference. Why you ask? Because I prioritize Holy shield in my cooldown before my judgement. Holy shield is 10 sec CD, Judgement(with talents is 8 sec) This means that because of it, I often delay my judgement because it interferes with my holy shield CD. That slight delay is basically making my imp judgement useless. I picked it originally so I could switch seals faster and adjust which judgement to use according to the situation. It also nice for trash where I don't have to be on top of keeping Holy Shield up.. But this is not about trash. This is about the boss.

    But for the sake of argument lets look at this example.

    With talents, judgement CD : 8 sec, without :10 seconds

    80 Sec interval
    Each judgement does 1.1k threat

    With talents = 10 Judgements
    W/o talents = 8 Judgements

    Extra 2.2k threat over 80 seconds with calculates into 1/80 * 2k = 27.5 tps ASSUMING the I never delay it for a Holy shield cooldown. (Which is never).

    So adding 30 TPS + and the extra 27.5 tps would give you a total of 58 TPS. Still not enough to beat reckoning."

  5. #5

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    I always spend 1 talent point into reckoning[when im prot] just for the sake of having it, and is unique to the paladin class. But its usefullness is somewhat deminished when you're raiding 10mans +. Come WotlK it will be better as we'll be stacking less avoidance and more stamina/block. However the 4sec cooldown on both JoL and JoW voids the 'extra attack' regen idea. Still who knows. They may make it better! But if they do I'd rather them[blizzard] make redoubt a more useful talent.

    Well someone did a relpy with some theorycrafting as I was typing, but I still hold my judgement, the limitation of the talent Reckoning and putting more than 1 talent point into reckoning is a waste.

    Armoury Link

    Nil desperandum! Always follow the Light

  6. #6

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    Quote Originally Posted by Slizarus
    My fucking god, how stupid are you guys in RR?

    Not every raiding Paladin takes it, but it is a truly worthwhile talent, especially stacked with Seal of Wisdom/Judge of Wisdom, especially in Heroic 5 mans or ZA where there's just not enough damage being down to you to heal through so you need to recoup mana somehow.

    It doesn't effect your mitigation in the slightest. I mean honestly, who told you that? Your Paladins started failing after your officers left.
    For some bosses, it does affect your mitigation indirectly. When you are reckoning you have 2x chance to be parried (if you dont have any expertise,a nd i dont know why you would as a prot pally) **EDIT** 2x chance meaning you swing twice, and both can be parried, it doesnt effect your actual chance to hit **EDIT**. When you are parried, you speed up the bosses attack timer. If both your main attack and second attack are parried simultaneously after a boss had a normal swing. you can get hit 3 times in under 1 second. Granted, you can dodge/parry/miss those 3 swings. but it could be painful

    Will the talent improve your threat. Oh heck yes. Will it have a 1/1000 chance of getting you insta-pwned... I guess. The increase in threat is more of a real thing, the insta-death really isnt that common (i have never seen it happen)

    Quote Originally Posted by Janz
    Not a single good pallytank has reckoning. Nuff said.
    That said, being parried in sunwell does NOT increase the bosses swing timer. All good sunwell pally tanks have reckoning (see math below)

  7. #7

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    That's some interesting theory crafting although I don't know the argument between Reckoning and Improved Judgements.. but
    "Now lets take a look at improved judgement. I had 2 in those point previously but I have learned that it does not make as big as a difference. Why you ask? Because I prioritize Holy shield in my cooldown before my judgement. Holy shield is 10 sec CD, Judgement(with talents is 8 sec) This means that because of it, I often delay my judgement because it interferes with my holy shield CD. That slight delay is basically making my imp judgement useless. I picked it originally so I could switch seals faster and adjust which judgement to use according to the situation. It also nice for trash where I don't have to be on top of keeping Holy Shield up.. But this is not about trash. This is about the boss."

    Is actually a really fair point, I have to keep Holy Shield up, the Mitigation and the TPS Being far more important than judging every 8 seconds and it's almost never on constant rotation, this "will likely" change in the expansion with the changes to Holy shield's cooldown, but currently, HS is priority.

    As I said though, not every Raid Pally has Reckoning or Avenger's shield in favor of other pulling techniques/extra spell mitigation and the like but I find it an overall useful talent.

    --

    Good point on Parry Bisley, though I don't know if the second attack can be parried (Likely can, just never checked, though I know the first can)
    You get Expertise from talents and occasionally gear, but I don't know how important it is to avoid that parry as a pally tank.

  8. #8

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    indeed. the person i was quoting even specifically said elsewhere that less reckoning is probably better if you dont have sunwell radiance on you. He claims he has seen less TPS in Black Temple due to it. With the prot tree filled with so many things to get. If you picked reckoning over 1h weapon spec... Would you see a huge difference? Probably not. If you picked 1h weapon spec over reckoning. Most people it wouldnt matter. If you are in sunwell. Sure. it matters. But in sunwell you cant get insta-pwned through parry bombs.

    Great for sunwell. ALL top end pally tanks have it. Mediocre for other places. But would you be a "noob" if you took it? Naw. Just be sure to know the ups and downs of having it.

  9. #9

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    As others have said it is a double edged sword. It would be nice if they changed it to "The Additional strikes caused by reckonning cannot be blocked, parryed of dodged" or even better if it just did the extra attack as holy damage
    >:7

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  10. #10

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley
    When you are parried, you speed up the bosses attack timer. If both your main attack and second attack are parried simultaneously after a boss had a normal swing. you can get hit 3 times in under 1 second. Granted, you can dodge/parry/miss those 3 swings. but it could be painful
    Luckily, Hasted attacks from Parry are capped at 20% swingtimer. In other words, after 2 parries you won't see any difference anymore. Granted that 3 hits in 1 sec is possible, but you would have to get a Reckoning attack, both getting parried, RIGHT after the boss has done a melee swing AND does an instant right after that.
    It can be a dangerous effect because you basicly get 100% haste for 8 seconds, but if you have a problem with it on certain fights, I suggest you macro all your abilities to include "/cancelaura Reckoning". Guaranteed to reduce Parry-induced kills.

  11. #11

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    Quote Originally Posted by Slizarus
    My fucking god, how stupid are you guys in RR?

    Not every raiding Paladin takes it, but it is a truly worthwhile talent, especially stacked with Seal of Wisdom/Judge of Wisdom, especially in Heroic 5 mans or ZA where there's just not enough damage being down to you to heal through so you need to recoup mana somehow.

    It doesn't effect your mitigation in the slightest. I mean honestly, who told you that? Your Paladins started failing after your officers left.
    LOL no we are not all dumb on RR!!
            Honestly I never spend my pts on it because I was getting the ret aura buff, I'm mostly tanking group so I never see the reckoning being good, and well I never look at it if I was able or not to block, parry or dodge when reckonning was on, it's why I ask !

    Well maybe in the WotLK I will take it to tank some boss and get more aggro on a single target !!!

  12. #12

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    well from now as I see 10 peeps say yes it's good and 8 say it's not !

    ho well I will wait to see the result when we gonna get more vote on the poll!!!

  13. #13

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    The problem with reckoning is that it only procs on hit received. If you gear for avoidance like most T6 content prot pallies do, that decreases the overall proc rate.

    That when coupled with the fact that if a boss in T6 content parries even an extra attack it means some serious inbound dmg to you. Maybe not insta-gib with 20k+ health but your healers sure aren't going to be thanking you.

    Most switch the points to 1H Weapon Specialization talent instead, for an overall boost in general dmg/threat.

  14. #14

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    That is actually what I've been reading as well. That reckoning is an undesireable talent for bosses because it makes you attack more and thus get parried more. So instead of getting reckoning, it is wise to focus getting things that increase your spell damage output since holy damage can't be parried and causes more threat.

    I guess that is one problem I have with WoW, a few of our abilities (warriors too) seem to be very useful when dealing with trash mobs, but become useless, or in this case a burden when dealing with bosses.

  15. #15

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    They need to modify Reckoning to be more "tank-friendly"; otherwise they should move it to the Retribution tree for the "Reckadins".

  16. #16

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    yep true!

    I dont really wanna give more job to my healer ^.^
    and Well I'm pretty sure they can move it to ret tree for PVP !!! crazy out dommage !!!

  17. #17

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    Expertise FTW

  18. #18

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    I'm neutral on Reckoning. I don't see a huge disadvantage to having it, and I don't see a huge increase in TPS in having it. I do have it in TBC, however, because I don't see anything else I would take instead of it. It's the least bad, in a manner of speaking, though it does aid in farming.

    Once WotLK comes, I will not be taking it, however. Points in Seals of the Pure, and maybe Divine Strength (with the reitemization and STR's new effect on blocking) leaving me no room for Reckoning. In my opinion, the solid damage/threat generated by SotP is MUCH greater than Reckoning. Also, I believe that Spell Warding will be more beneficial in WotLK since all spells will naturally cause more damage at higher levels. I may change my mind on that later, but as of right now, I'm going to see how that works.

  19. #19

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    Well for now I use this talent tree !

    http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00200000000000

    I took the ret aura improve for more treath on group specialy with the 2 set bonus from the T5

    and in WotLK I probably will use

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...10232155312321

    I really like to get those 5% parry rating for more avoidance

  20. #20

    Re: A Reckonning for Prot Pally

    I do not have the math yet, as the level cap is not at 80 & we have not seen all the gear, but WotLK Paladin Tanks will be geared up like warriors, huge Strength and Stamina, Block Values & Defense and will not be using Spell Power weapons.

    My feeling on the talent - again no math to back it up and no end content to test it with - is that it will be a GREAT talent for WotLK. It will just be incumbent upon Paladins to have high expertise and be hit capped.

    But I could be 100% wrong, will have to see what endgame gear is and bosses abilities are before we know for sure.

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