Page 1 of 4
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    I heard that Titan Grip is weak. Whats the problem? How can they be fixed?
    Paladins are Cool Now?
    What happen to Kalgan?

  2. #2
    Dreadlord hellar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    University Of Alabama
    Posts
    837

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    i dont personaly think the titans grip is weak at all. they will be more wanted in raids now. i think blizzed buffed em in furry / pve. and more nerfed in pvp not by much though

  3. #3

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    doing a little bit of math (based on Apolyon and Crux of the Apocalypse)
    (Max + Min)/(2*Attack Speed)

    2H -- Apolyon : (607+404)/(2*3.4) = 148.7

    1H -- Crux : (247+164)/(2*1.8) = 114.2

    2H and 5/5 Talents : (607+404)/(2*3.4*1.2) = 123.9

    2H and 1/5 Talents : (607+404)/(2*3.4*1.28) = 116.2

    Not sure if the "You attack 20% slower than normal" means necessarily 1.0 goes to 1.2, or in the way they calculate haste rating. so this may be slightly off. either way, its not slowing the weapon down to the point where its worse than a one hander.

    But what we CAN see, is 5/5 talent points gives us a ~10 dps boost. 1/5 talents (and presumably each subsequent point) is ~2 dps boost.

    14 AP is 1 dps, but with a slower weapon there is a bigger boost to single swing damage. whirlwinds will be hitting twice as hard etc. So it WILL be a significant upgrade in DPS... Will it be enough to be worth the 5 talent points? Only time/testing can tell.

    If you get this, you wont be able to get deep enough into the arms tree for blood frenzy. Absolute necessity? Not really. Weaksauce? not really that either.

  4. #4

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    I'd also wait and see what 80 weapons are looking like between 1 handers and 2 handers before saying too much myself. The difference between the 2 keeps getting larger and larger as time goes on it seems.

  5. #5

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    You'd do more damage with two 1 handers.

  6. #6

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Well you're forgetting about one thing:
    There are far more stats on 2handed weapons than on 1handed

    (btw I find it very interessting that you considered a 1/5 spec Maybe 5/5 sword spec?)

  7. #7

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    the stats thing is very true.

    Though a 1/5 spec just to be able to wield the weapons is somewhat viable... what I was initially thinking is that some people like to consider "dps increase per talent point." Granted with my example it doesnt tank other gear and WW damage into "dps increase" so it didnt really do much.

    I would imagine it works like if you have 2800 AP. you get a 200 dps bonus.
    Thats ~680 bonus damage per swing at 3.4. ~870 at 3.4*1.28. ~815 at 3.4*1.2. Only ~520 damage at a 2.6 weapon speed (such as murasama)

    so from AP (assuming you only have 2800, which i used for the nice even number). You gain 160 damage per swing (im assuming you gain the 3.4 AP benefit, not the slower version). You also gain about ~275 per swing just from having a slower weapon. 275/10 means you get ~30 dps upgrade to whirlwind. Plus whatever you got from white damage. And the numbers just grow even more as you get more AP/harder hitting weapons. Also, the numbers could be drastically different if you were using slower weapons like stunherald.

  8. #8
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Orc Warrior
    Posts
    332

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Titan Grip will be crap even with no speed penalty (see caveat).

    When dual wielding 1H weps, you make constant use of heroic strike. Heroic Strike means:
    1) +19% chance to hit for that attack
    2) Attack cannot glance
    3) Attack benefits from impale
    4) Attack gets HUGE +damage (and HS is being insanely (+56%) buffed, +500 damage at level 80, 320 at 70 instead of 210)

    Heroic strike costs 15 rage plus ~1.8-1.9 seconds worth of rage gen from MH attacks with one handers. The real rage cost is cheaper per swing the faster your swing timer is

    The DPS boost strictly from the +damage on HS is greater the faster your swing is. Static +damage can only be increased by making it happen more often.

    This means: Heroic strike is both more rage efficient and gives more DPS benefit the faster your main hand attacks.


    When you use a 2 hander, heroic strike costs nearly double as much rage since it uses 3-4 seconds of mainhand rage generation. Furthermore it provides less DPS boost because you halve the occurrence due to slow-ass swing time.


    CONCLUSION: Dual wield REQUIRES heroic strike due to the penalties of even regular Dual wield. You will not use heroic strike with Titan Grip. This means you do not benefit from points 1-4. This means you will have to stack more hit and haste, at the expense of AP/Crit/ArPen. This will not outweigh the stats benefit. Since there is an additional -20% attackspeed, all DPS stats also scale 20% lower on top of this.

    CAVEAT: If they remove the swing speed penalty, it will be possible to DW extremely fast (2.2-3.0) 2 handers and use Heroic Strike with no penalties above normal Dual Wield. This will actually make TG what it should be, a straight up DPS boost talent like every other class gets (except mages, our brothers in shitty WOTLK talents)

  9. #9

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrchee
    Titan Grip will be crap even with no speed penalty (see caveat).

    When dual wielding 1H weps, you make constant use of heroic strike. Heroic Strike means:
    1) +19% chance to hit for that attack
    2) Attack cannot glance
    3) Attack benefits from impale
    4) Attack gets HUGE +damage (and HS is being insanely (+56%) buffed, +500 damage at level 80, 320 at 70 instead of 210)

    Heroic strike costs 15 rage plus ~1.8-1.9 seconds worth of rage gen from MH attacks with one handers. The real rage cost is cheaper per swing the faster your swing timer is

    The DPS boost strictly from the +damage on HS is greater the faster your swing is. Static +damage can only be increased by making it happen more often.

    This means: Heroic strike is both more rage efficient and gives more DPS benefit the faster your main hand attacks.


    When you use a 2 hander, heroic strike costs nearly double as much rage since it uses 3-4 seconds of mainhand rage generation. Furthermore it provides less DPS boost because you halve the occurrence due to slow-ass swing time.


    CONCLUSION: Dual wield REQUIRES heroic strike due to the penalties of even regular Dual wield. You will not use heroic strike with Titan Grip. This means you do not benefit from points 1-4. This means you will have to stack more hit and haste, at the expense of AP/Crit/ArPen. This will not outweigh the stats benefit. Since there is an additional -20% attackspeed, all DPS stats also scale 20% lower on top of this.

    CAVEAT: If they remove the swing speed penalty, it will be possible to DW extremely fast (2.2-3.0) 2 handers and use Heroic Strike with no penalties above normal Dual Wield. This will actually make TG what it should be, a straight up DPS boost talent like every other class gets (except mages, our brothers in shitty WOTLK talents)
    LOL, ROFL, LMAO!! Seriously? Seriously? Are you that stupid? Any fury warrior who isn't a complete moron doesn't use HS. UNLESS its to dump rage and the tank is high above on threat. HS is an on next attack that takes a MH white hit and generates no rage. Thus severally nerfing your rage generation if your spamming it. Now on the other hand. Titans Grip will allow much larger MH and OH white damage and crit damage increasing rage generation. Now if the extra damage they create is not enough to out weigh the lower swing speeds of 2 handers, 1 handers may be a better alternative. Simply due to the fact they may generate more rage due to the decreased swing timers, however i haven't had ample testing on this yet. Another thing you are forgetting is 2 handers will benefit more from Flurry than 1 handers. So please don't post about something you obviously know nothing about.

  10. #10
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Orc Warrior
    Posts
    332

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torokaz
    LOL, ROFL, LMAO!! Seriously? Seriously? Are you that stupid? Any fury warrior who isn't a complete moron doesn't use HS. UNLESS its to dump rage and the tank is high above on threat. HS is an on next attack that takes a MH white hit and generates no rage. Thus severally nerfing your rage generation if your spamming it. Now on the other hand. Titans Grip will allow much larger MH and OH white damage and crit damage increasing rage generation. Now if the extra damage they create is not enough to out weigh the lower swing speeds of 2 handers, 1 handers may be a better alternative. Simply due to the fact they may generate more rage due to the decreased swing timers, however i haven't had ample testing on this yet. Another thing you are forgetting is 2 handers will benefit more from Flurry than 1 handers. So please don't post about something you obviously know nothing about.
    _________________________________________________
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthara
    i just had to log in and tell you everything you just typed out is wrong lol

    all attacks have a chance to glance, damage is not higher the faster a weapon is

    and TG getting just the normal DWing penalties would be insanely OP

    so please just dont comment on things if

    a. you have never tested them ( which i doubt you have0
    or

    b.you have no clue what you are saying

    and where the fux did you get 19% to hit on Mh attacks from?
    _________________________________________________

    1) White attacks have 28% chance to miss. Yellow attacks have 9% chance to miss. HS turns white attack into yellow attack. Ergo, HS gives +19% hit for one attack

    2) White attacks have a chance to glance, causing fractional damage. Yellow attacks do not glance. HS turns white attack into yellow attack. Ergo, HS removes chance of glance for one attack

    3) Haste gives the same benefit regardless of base weapon speed.

    4) Heroic strike provides +210 damage (@70, 2.4.3 build).

    210 damage per 1.85 seconds (flurried hasted 1H) means +114 DPS (not counting hit, glance benefit) at the cost of 15 + 13 (rage from MH swing for 650 dmg after armor with 2.6 spd weapon) = 28 rage = +7.5dmg per rage

    210 damage per 3 seconds (flurried hasted 3.5 2H with TG penalty) means +70 DPS at the cost of 15 + 19 (rage from 2H swing for 900 after armor with 3.5 speed) = 34 rage = 6.1dmg per rage.

    So, lower DPS and lower D/R

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Bloody ol' Germany
    Posts
    2,957

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthara
    damage is not higher the faster a weapon is
    lets say...
    normal attack does 100 dmg, hs increases dmg by 50. dmg of heroic strike would be 150 => 50% increase
    normal attack does 1000 dmg, hs increases dmg by 50. dmg of heroic strike would be 1050 => 5% increase.
    so... IF you have endless rage, hs does more dmg with faster weapons than with slower weapons. yea, I know there is an AP-mulitplicator, and there is definitely no thing such as endless rage, but on this pure base calculation with some definitely excessive numbers... the statement, "the faster the weapon, the more damage with hs spam" is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthara
    and TG getting just the normal DWing penalties would be insanely OP
    why it would be OP, if tg just gets also the 19% miss from being "dual wield" rather then NOT get it? it would be insanely OP if you just need to get the 9% miss capped "because it is an 2 handed weapon"... oh wait.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anthara
    and where the fux did you get 19% to hit on Mh attacks from?
    HS is an style, styles (aka yellow dmg) are not affected from the 19% miss which EVERY hand gets while dual wielding. so... it's a little out of order to call it "hs gets 19% hit", but fact is: styles just need 9% hit to get capped against (x+3)lvl mobs instead of whitedmg.



    and no (!), i am not telling, that HS is good for a fury warrior dps :>

  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Tygroen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    1,179

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    I am just curious as to why we have two threads going on at the same time about the same topic? Is it possible that people from one could all go to another so we can let one die, and let the other thrive to be a "OMGYOUSUCKZ MY UNTESTED THEORYCRAFT IZ BETTER THAN UR UNTESTED THEORYCRAFTZ" like the OP obviously intended.

    Honestly, I would rather talk about (and QQ) about druids not getting the suggested Dire Cat form, rather than have people yell at each other because someone didn't read the correct QFT EJ thread about warrior dps.

  13. #13
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Orc Warrior
    Posts
    332

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygroen
    I am just curious as to why we have two threads going on at the same time about the same topic? Is it possible that people from one could all go to another so we can let one die, and let the other thrive to be a "OMGYOUSUCKZ MY UNTESTED THEORYCRAFT IZ BETTER THAN UR UNTESTED THEORYCRAFTZ" like the OP obviously intended.
    If you want a thread to die, the current wisdom is to not post in it

  14. #14

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygroen


    Honestly, I would rather talk about (and QQ) about druids not getting the suggested Dire Cat form
    what?
    was having the highest end game ap not enough for you?
    or being able to tank and dps in the same spec and gear?
    why would you even need dire cat tbh

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral Tygroen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    1,179

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    I see, so having the highest AP makes us the best dpsers? Wtg buddy. Our dps still cannot match up to just about anything else if they are smart. Plus, Blizzard is solving the whole respec issue, so QQ moar.

  16. #16
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Orc Warrior
    Posts
    332

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    quit derailing the thread with stupid druid crap

  17. #17

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    just whirl wind spam it'll make up for the dps loss ;]

  18. #18
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Orc Warrior
    Posts
    332

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by myarluu
    just whirl wind spam it'll make up for the dps loss ;]
    I wish that was true

  19. #19

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrchee
    Heroic strike costs 15 rage plus ~1.8-1.9 seconds worth of rage gen from MH attacks with one handers. The real rage cost is cheaper per swing the faster your swing timer is

    The DPS boost strictly from the +damage on HS is greater the faster your swing is. Static +damage can only be increased by making it happen more often.

    This means: Heroic strike is both more rage efficient and gives more DPS benefit the faster your main hand attacks.


    When you use a 2 hander, heroic strike costs nearly double as much rage since it uses 3-4 seconds of mainhand rage generation. Furthermore it provides less DPS boost because you halve the occurrence due to slow-ass swing time.
    Hopefully you are not using a 1.8-1.9 speed weapon for fury because that would severly nerf your whirlwind dmg(although if you are just spaming HS you probably dont have enough rage for WW). A faster weapon will generate more consistant rage than a slower one due to less rage lost to a miss/dodge/parry and this also means that you lose less rage from a heroic strike but heroic strike is not meant to be a frequently used attack.

    One thing you forget to mention is the extra threat added by HS. At the end of the HS tooltip it says something along the lines of "causes a high ammount of threat." The EXTRA threat added by HS is +196(rank 10). This is not including the threat caused by the actual dmg of the HS.

    By comparison:
    Revenge(rank 8 ) causes +201 threat
    Devastate causes +106+(14*sunder count)+301(from sunder)=407+(14*sunder count)
    This means HS causes ~1/2-2/5 the threat of a devastate without including threat from dmg. Add this increased threat to your white dmg from your OH and from WW/bloodthirst and you have a perfect recipie for pulling aggro. Why do you think warriors get another 10% threat reduction in WotLK?

    HS may give more dps and rage efficiency with faster weapons but spamming it will leave you out of rage quickly no matter what speed your weapon is and will probably have you end up dead from pulling aggro.

    HS is just an aggro dump for when you have so much rage you are wasting the rage you are generating.

    Titan's Grip is a straight dps boost talent it only has the 20% speed reduction so that it is not OP.
    Take Gorehowl for instance. It is not even close to the best 2h ingame but with TG the dps is still better than most 1h weps you will find.
    Gorehowl is 345-518dmg at 3.6 speed. with 5/5 TG the speed is 3.6*1.2=4.32. Average dmg is (345+518)/2=431.5. Making dps with 5/5 TG 431.5/4.32=99.9dps much more than the Kara level 1handers you will find in the same instance as Gorehowl.
    This also does not take into account the greatly increased stats on 2h weapons over 1h weps. Gorehowl has 49 strength giving 98AP and can also have savagery put on it for a grand total of 168AP for just your MH slot.

    Titan Grip is most definetly not weaksauce(you might want to fix your sause typo in the thread title)

    Threat numbers are taken from the WowWiki page on threat. please tell me if any of my calculatons are off and i will be glad to redo them.

  20. #20

    Re: Titan Grip = Weaksause?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrchee
    I wish that was true
    it might be :O

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •