To Divine Guardian or Not To Divine Guardian??

[Chazhole]

I'm pretty new to the Paladin, as far as tanking goes, and I'd like to go Prot in WotLK. So I was just messing around with the talent calculator tonight, and noticed this talent. It looks like it would come in handy, but I'm just not sure. Some honest feedback would be great, ty.

and feel free to flame is necessary... I can just Stone Form it

[MoonMage]

if u want to pvp i would say its a near must have, in my PvP build i take it and imp hoj and i dont feel like im losing much in the ret tree.

[Aressolo]

If you are going full protection in LK I think that Divine Guardian isn't so useful.

Going full protection with a pala means that you will be tanking, 5mans or raids doesn't care. If you use Divine Shield when you are tanking, you will immediatly lose aggro, making you (as a tank) completely useless.

If your intention is put your talents mostly in retri or holy, you will discover that Divine Guardian is really a nice talent.

Think about a retri an/or an holy in arena that put his bubble on: during that 12 second they can throw some sure heals and reducing the damage of their whole team. Just think if this damage reduction can stack! -----> In PvE 3 paladins that use the shield at the same time will reduce the raid damage by 90%! That's INSANE. Or maybe, if the effect can't stack, you can think about a Divine Shield rotation, rendering heavy aoe damage bosses easier.

The only think about Holy is choosing between Divine Guardian (and Kings) or Sheath of Light (and Convinction). That's a real question.

[b37x]

Divine Guardian works on both Divine Shield and Divine Protection.

Remember Divine Protection? It was like Divine Shield Jr. back at level 6... and the second you got Divine Shield you took DP off your hotbar and never looked back.

Well Divine Protection just got a huge buff! As of now it's a 50% damage reduction (no more immunity). Hello mini-shieldwall on a 5min cooldown.

So when you pop Divine Protection do you want to reduce your party/raid damage by 30% by absorbing 15% of it? Not knowing what encounters blizzard has planned, it's hard to say how good this is.

[Aressolo]

Oh, that's true, I forgot that b37x.

But I think that using Divine Protection to reduce damage while taking 15% damage for every person in the raid (24 or 9) will make it useless. Or not? Maybe someone already tested it in beta in 5 mans, but I don't think it is the same as a 25 people raid.

Did blizzard put that talent for tankadins? Or maybe to encourage some pally healers to continue the old holy/prot?

I really don't know.

[Chazhole]

Ty for the info, it is much appreciated. ;D

[meroko]

Did blizzard put that talent for tankadins? Or maybe to encourage some pally healers to continue the old holy/prot?

I really don't know.

It's definitely for tanks, the new Holy will be Holy/Ret (sheath of light) or Full Holy (beacon of light) with some ret points for conviction (5% more crit) ... I really don't see any raid advantages to holy pallies spec'ing into Prot anymore but we'll see

[Voidseeker]

As it stands right now, if you are going to be a Prot Paladin and tanking, that talent is useless. You will not be taking it as a tank.

It is there for Holy Prot or Ret Prot builds.

You cannot afford to use Divine Shield as a tank, it will wipe the group/raid.

You cannot afford to use Divine Protection with this talent as 15%/30% of all damage done to the raid will be directed at you for 7.5%/15%. If you do the math that is A LOT of damage that you are going to take. The only times you are going to want to use Dinvine Protection is when you know a lot of damage is incomming at you the Main Tank and/or your health is very low and you need to give the healers a few seconds to get you back up. In either case having a TON of damage redirected at your head is NOT GOOD.

But a Holy Prot or Ret Prot Paladin can take this talent and use it in a lot of different situations - in fact should take this talent.

They can pop Divine Shield and not take any damage while at the same time lowering all damage done to the raid by 30%. They can also pop Divine Protection to do the same thing, with a heads up to the healers so they know to toss some extra heals that way.




tl, dr version:

If tanking: NO!

Otherwise: Yes.

[Aressolo]

You cannot afford to use Divine Protection with this talent as 15%/30% of all damage done to the raid will be directed at you for 7.5%/15%. If you do the math that is A LOT of damage that you are going to take. The only times you are going to want to use Dinvine Protection is when you know a lot of damage is incomming at you the Main Tank and/or your health is very low and you need to give the healers a few seconds to get you back up. In either case having a TON of damage redirected at your head is NOT GOOD.

That's what I said. To be more clear let's do this math.

Imagine you, protection paladin with Divine Guardian, tanking a boss that hits you for 4k every 2 seconds (that's an example) and that has an aura like RoS' one, but with static damage, let's say, 500 damage every 1 sec in a room where all the players are 30 yards from the tank.

You use Divine Protection that lasts 12 seconds:
You will receive 6 boss attacks, 2k per hit, meaning you will get : 2000*6 : 12000
50 damage for every second (the aura ticks also for the tank) : 50*12 : 600
You will redirect every second 75 damage from your raid members, so 24 ticks every second, meaning : 24(N°of people)*75(damage)*12(seconds) : 21600
The total damage in these 12 seconds is 34200

However in 12 "normal" seconds:
You will receive 6 attacks, 4k per hit, meaning you will get : 4000*6 : 24000
100 damage for every second : 100*12 : 1200
The totale dmage in these 12 seconds is 25200

The aura in Divine Protection's seconds will tick 1850 per second ((24*75)+50),
in the "normal" 12 seconds will tick normally, 100 per second.

With Divine Protection you surely receive more TOTAL damage in THIS case, and you will redirect a LOT of AOE damage to you, making the healing component more difficult.

I think that Divine Guardian is a strange talent combined with Divine Protection:
- In an HEAVY AOE fight it's a waste of talent points and a "tank-killer"
- In tank&spank or where the AOE component is really (REALLY) low, Divine
Protection will help you and a bit your raid's healer.

Hope that helps.

[b37x]

If Divine Guardian was a separate ability you could click (5min CD maybe), it would be much more valuable. I'd use it whenever I run out of mana, but can't seem to stop dodging and parrying the boss.

But tying it to our new shield wall makes is a "must-miss" for serious tanks.

[Samiel]

Maybe it's meant for PvP? Or Holy/Ret Paladins, and not for PvE Prot Spec tanks?

[demajo]

The total damage in these 12 seconds is 34200

&&

The totale dmage in these 12 seconds is 25200

I think you forgot something

Case 1 : Raid gets 24 * 350 * 12 = 100800 Damage over the 12 Seconds

Case 2 : Raid gets 24 * 500 * 12 = 144000 Damage over the 12 seconds

so you exchange about 44k Raiddamage to 9k Tankdamage ... i dont think that this is unhealable over 12 Seconds.

In my opinion this is a musthave for tanking as it is a standard shieldwall in non AoE fights, something a pala did miss until lichking. And even in AoE fights this can be usefull to make raidhealing easier.

Demajo

[Voidseeker]

I think you forgot something

Case 1 : Raid gets 24 * 350 * 12 = 100800 Damage over the 12 Seconds

Case 2 : Raid gets 24 * 500 * 12 = 144000 Damage over the 12 seconds

so you exchange about 44k Raiddamage to 9k Tankdamage ... i dont think that this is unhealable over 12 Seconds.

In my opinion this is a musthave for tanking as it is a standard shieldwall in non AoE fights, something a pala did miss until lichking. And even in AoE fights this can be usefull to make raidhealing easier.

Demajo

In both cases you are talking about damage over time. Forget that as it is not worst case.

Worst case will be a boss with a single raid wide AoE attack for lets say 8K. That is most likely low given that there are fights that have that already at 70. But lets just go with 8k to the raid, one attack:

8,000 x 24 = 192,000.
30% of 192,000 = 57,600
Let's say that the redirected damage is also cut down by 50% (because if it is not you are dead & wipe)
50% of 57,600 = 28,800

So you as a tank will take 28,800 + your 4K for the 50% of the attack that is directed at you for a total of 32,800 damage. Do you honestly think that Main Tanks will have over 33K HP at 80?


The purpose of Shield Wall and Divine Protection is to take as little damage as possible. It is for moments just like the one I outlined above where healers are going to be taxed to the max getting the raid back up and cannot concentrate on just the MT; using these "oh shit" skills at that time helps to ensure that the tank lives long enough for healers to get him/her back to full health.


Any serious paladin tank will NOT be taking the Divine Guardian talent as it is currently designed. If they cannot afford to have the damage redirected at them EVERY time they use it, they cannot risk it.


Holy & Ret builds will take the talent as they can use it with Divine Shield and not have to worry about ANY damage being taken.

[Lebeau]

Seriously, am i the ONLY one that noticed that they removed Divine Protection from the Divine Guardian tooltip?

[Daviid Leethsiah]

Nope, I noticed it too. That was actually removed with the latest patch.

[Aressolo]

Seriously, am i the ONLY one that noticed that they removed Divine Protection from the Divine Guardian tooltip?

If you see the date of the post, you'll notice that the new Beta Build that removes Divine Protection from Divine Guardian wasn't out yet.

[Voidseeker]

Seriously, am i the ONLY one that noticed that they removed Divine Protection from the Divine Guardian tooltip?

What you noticed was Blizzard fixing a talent that was broken. They fixed it due to EXACTLY what we were talking about in this topic BEFORE the latest patch came out.

I had already posted on the Beta forum about the issue, as I am sure many other Beta Paladins did, and they changed the talent in response to the feedback. So at this point the talent is now an awesome pick up for any Paladin going up the Prot Tree.