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  1. #41

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    I'd like to see Crusader strike apply a debuff that either increases all damage done to the target by 1% and stacks up to 5 times, or just increases the damage the mob gets from the paladin by 2% and also stacks up to 5 times.
    The first one would add more raid utility to compensate for the bit lost on the old CS, but it might be a bit too powerful since paladins already add a lot of utility in the form of, 3% haste, 2% more damage, 3% crit, group mana regen and group healing.
    If the first suggestion is too powerful, then at least the second one would be nice.

  2. #42

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    i dont think the best thing for a retri paladin would be a MS effect MS makes warriors unique(even tho rogues/hunters have a similar effect it's just not the same)the 50% reduced healing is really the only reason why you would have a warrior over another dps(unless the warrior is skilled) in an arena.

    rather than CS giving a debuff have people ever thought it might be better to give a buff maybe >CS causes 110% weapon damage and gives you a 10% chance to increase all healing taken by 10%, stacks up to 3 times.

    that would be a nice buff but also not OP us in pvp.


  3. #43

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawberry
    Aye, and it had no reason being transfered to the Hunter in the first place.

    I'd like the Paladin to stay as unique as possible, getting talents copied out of a different class kinda negates that. And besides, we don't need a healing reduce with the damage we have been dealing in the Beta.
    Well i can agree to that. Unique is better, which was why i always liked the idea that if refreshed judgements.

    The damage as it is in beta won't make it to live with all the whining on other forums at the moment with how "overpowered" ret is at the moment. Kind of similar to how paladins get their new talents at 60, which was very power for 60 but when you got to 70 it wasn't nearly as powerful as everyone whined. Yet they still nerfed Crusader strike and vengeance, only to later buff it because of how silly they were in nerfing it in the first place.

    Still, i'd love to see some utility added to Crusader Strike. Its not needed but even a debuff similar to Earthstrike but for holy (yeah, similar to Jugement of the crusader lolz) that maybe increases judgement damage by 5% for 15 seconds would be nice. Not needed but it adds a nice bonus.
    We are warriors, born from the light
    An army for freedom, defenders of life
    Warriors, euphoria will rise
    Returning from darkness we bury all lies

  4. #44

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    Spell interrupt is the main thing and I think quite likely. Being the only melee DPS without a spell interrupt is pretty harsh as regards raid viability.

    However a spell interrupt on a 6 second cooldown would be fairly imba for ret so I would suggest something like this.

    Crusader Strike

    Instantly strike your target for 110% of weapon damage interrupting any spells they are casting. This spell interrupt cannot occur more than once every 10 seconds.


    I think that would give a spell interrupt without being too overpowering. You can get a spell interrupt every 10 seconds if you lose out on some DPS or with crusader strike spam youll get the interrupt every 12 seconds.

  5. #45

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulver
    Spell interrupt is the main thing and I think quite likely. Being the only melee DPS without a spell interrupt is pretty harsh as regards raid viability.

    However a spell interrupt on a 6 second cooldown would be fairly imba for ret so I would suggest something like this.

    Crusader Strike

    Instantly strike your target for 110% of weapon damage interrupting any spells they are casting. This spell interrupt cannot occur more than once every 10 seconds.


    I think that would give a spell interrupt without being too overpowering. You can get a spell interrupt every 10 seconds if you lose out on some DPS or with crusader strike spam youll get the interrupt every 12 seconds.
    How is spell interupt beneficial in raids? only a couple of low level bosses such as aran arent immune to it. Spell interupt is mainly for pvp, therefore no... i dont want it. If CS needs to be changed give it a chance to do a 2nd strike upon an initial crit.
    Statistically speaking, you are an average player. Learn to live with it.

  6. #46

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    I don't see them changing CS, a 110% damage strike as a talent is still a very solid Talent in and of itself.

  7. #47

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    I think if it carries over your current seal, it is MORE then enough to compensate for a MS effect.

    Right now (with crits and varying numbers according to resiliance, armor, SL/SL what have you)
    White 2k (armor cuts it back)
    Seal of Command 2k (goes through armor)
    Crusader Strike 2k (armor cuts it back)
    ------------------
    6k damage that can literally happen as soon as I run up to your face (assuming the planets align)


    If it carries over my seal
    White 2k
    SoC 2k
    CS 2k
    SoC proc off CS 2k
    ------------------
    8k damage that literally happen as soon as I run up to your face (assuming the planets AND the moons align)


    "But Akyle, for you to be lucky enough to have back to back SoCs as well as ALL your attacks critting should never happen"

    Sure, you're right, the odds of ALL those happening as crits are slim, but the fact is that I CAN drop 8k damage now as soon as I make contact with someone, just by having a seal up and CSing them as soon as I am in range.
    Just like the AoW nerf, we COULD do 21k judgments, if we got all those jazzy buffs and lined it up. Will it always happen? No, of course not. But the fact it COULD happen gave it enough worry to the Devs to nerf it into the garbage it is now.


    Hell lets go one step further, and add our new awesome ability Divine Storm
    White 2k
    SoC 2k
    CS 2k
    SoC (off CS) 2k
    DS 2.2k (Rough estimation, but it IS a holy attack, and therefore goes through armor)
    SoC (off DS) 2k
    -------------------
    12.4k damage by simply placing up SoC, running up to an enemy, using Crusader Strike followed by a Divine Storm. (If the Planets, the moons, and a few comets line up)

    All these are estimations based off my current gear, and my current damage outputs, armor, resiliance and other effects will obviously affect this.

    We haven't even placed the idea of throwing our new supped up judgments, based off our ATP + SPD coefficients, NOR the fact that we will FINALLY have some SPD outside of Tier sets.

    Throw in a Hammer of Justice, (and thanks to +hit effects carrying over, less misses/resists [hopefully]) and (as of right now) they're either dead already, or AT LEAST at 20% for an execute/hammer of wrath.


    Just like the McDonald's 1990's commercials:
    "Hey, it could happen"

  8. #48

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    I consider SoB and SoC procing of CS still being a weak justification for it not having any other effects at all.

    Still after thinking about it, it doesn't seem that bad, in PVP it gives a chance to do some nice burst, in PVE doing a solid 10 CS a minute you get 10 more SoB procs from it, its a very, very nice DPS increase, for SoC it won't do it any good since as far as I know it still works on 7 PPM.

  9. #49

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    cs doing holy dmg instead of physical would be really great , or at least a bit more than 110% percent.. 130 or something like that would be enough..

  10. #50

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Admuntour
    I consider SoB and SoC procing of CS still being a weak justification for it not having any other effects at all.

    Still after thinking about it, it doesn't seem that bad, in PVP it gives a chance to do some nice burst, in PVE doing a solid 10 CS a minute you get 10 more SoB procs from it, its a very, very nice DPS increase, for SoC it won't do it any good since as far as I know it still works on 7 PPM.
    I'm pretty confident that the 7ppm is to set up your % of SoC going off. Not that it counts 7 times in one minute if a SoC went off. As of right now, TBC, seals don't proc off our CS, and we don't have DS yet. So basically the only thing that can proc a SoC is our auto attack. But with the addition of two instant attacks, that in beta carry over our seal affect, we could definitely see more then 7 SoC procs per minute.

    When we recieve haste rating benefits, the aspd changes on the weapon, and SoC is scripted to determine the % of proccing off your current aspd, not its base aspd. Instant attacks don't change the aspd of your weapon, and theres no way for a computer to be able to estimate if your going to be able to fit a set amount of CS and DS in for it to be able to adjust the % of SoC going off.

    In otherwords, the game does not count 7 SoC and say "no more SoC procs until the end of the minute phrase"
    so our new attacks should have the same base % of proccing a SoC as if we were like we are now, only able to proc them off auto attacks.

  11. #51

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    What if...

    Crusader Strike

    Instantly strike your target for 110% of weapon damage. This ability has a 50% chance of refreshing your Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption effects on the target.

    Or perhaps add this effect into a glyph.

  12. #52

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    Fact is Ret paladins will probably never be viable for high end arena pvp until they get a healing debuff of some kind. Those saying it shouldnt happen are basically saying Ret pallies should not be viable for 2k+ arena play.

  13. #53

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    What I find so funny is that everyone is crying Havoc regarding DPS output of a Retri Paladin in Wotlk

    "if the moon, the stars and metors aline" ...

    They immidiatly call Paladins "overpowerd" in pvp ..

    That is scenerio 1.

    Than another scenerio where in TBC I see destruction warlocks with the 0-21-40 raid build shoot Shadowbolts which crit for 5-7k damage, followed by 2k Shadowburns ?

    "if the moon, the stars and metors aline" ...

    They did not call that destruction warlock OP in pvp. Why was that? Was it maybe because a 21-40 destro build has no viablity, no survivibility and no real chance in arenas?

    Yet they still compare a retri paladin with warriors (who have hamstring + MS debuf) or with rogues (with crippling/wound poison).. They can compare the damage.. but we can not compare the cipples and anti healing effect..

    I wonder why?

    Basicly what I wanted to say: pvp is more than 'just' damage which is what a lot of ppl seem to forget.

  14. #54

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    I accidently posted this in the other thread where it doesn't make sense :P

    I would like to see this on Crusader Strike.

    Crusader Strike
    8% Base Mana
    6 Second Cooldown
    Deals 100% Weapon Damage to the target and applies a debuff, Guided Light. Guided light lasts 6 seconds (so you can only have it on one target at a time) and causes the Paladin to be healed for 50% of what the target is healed. Damage healed by Guided Light can not exceed 50% Of the Paladin's total life.

    So basically this is what a battle would look like:

    Your Crusader Strike hits mage for 2100 (crit) (Mage HP: 7900/10000)
    Mage is afflicted by Guided Light (6 seconds)
    Priest heals mage for 8000(2100) (crit)
    Guided Light heals you for 1050

    Basically it doesn't count overhealing, just hp that is actually healed.
    It stacks with Mortal Strike, but mortal strike would be measured in first. So on a target with mortal strike, you are only getting 1/4th the effect of the heal.

    Now on the other thread someone said this was overpowered. I don't think so. This would make us annoying, and that is what every class wants/needs to be. Rogues are annoying. Warlocks are Overpowered. It would force the enemy to kill us first instead of just spamming heal on their target. And against healers, they wouldn't be able to just spam heal on themselves while someone else kills us, because they would be healing us too. I think this would be a unique way to do an MS type effect.

    Just incase someone doesn't understand, the target would still get healed for the full amount of the spell, so it's not like MS + healing done to us.

  15. #55

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    @Eminus
    TRUE! arena is more than dmg.30 sec cd stun is pretty good but not enough.Paladins need a spellinterrupt, a slow effet or a ms ability because we are UP against healer.

  16. #56

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    @ Korhax
    or they just ignor us...the advantage, we are never focused xD

  17. #57

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    Quote Originally Posted by kraeden
    Fact is Ret paladins will probably never be viable for high end arena pvp until they get a healing debuff of some kind. Those saying it shouldnt happen are basically saying Ret pallies should not be viable for 2k+ arena play.
    There are plenty of Ret. Paladin / Rogue or Ret. Paladin / Druid / Warrior teams on 2200+ rating. So that is just not true.

    Are the setups I named easy? No. But can it be done? Certainly.


    [size=14pt]Read the: Paladin - Frequently Asked Questions[/size]

  18. #58

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    the change to make CS no longer refresh judgements is simply taking an obsolete effect out of the game.

    I think we all have the right idea where CS is going, blizzard wants a ret pally as a melee brawler/utility healer.

    Crusader Strike:
    normal effect
    (heals party/self for %'tage)(alot like devine storm)
    (increases spell damage target takes for 6 seconds)(great raid dps debuff/slight pvp synergy buff)
    (5-10 yard lunge Attack that closes distance and has a chance to chastise your target rooting him in place(or inturupt), - my personal fix )


    Ret pallys could really use a root that isent a stun, being able to root someone that is LOS'ing/travel forming in arena could help our teamates SO much in arena. I can see it now "crusader proced BURST NOW". Ret burst is great in arena... when you are actually IN MELEE with your target. atm hunters/shadowstep rogues/warriors have a much easier time helping blow down a target at a momments notice.
    When a ret pally uses crusader strike on you, it should feel like a "special attack" instead of just a supliment to melee/judgement damage. No 41 point talent in the game is as "bland" as CS in its current form.

    I can see the animation now... a glowing holy radiance as you blow someone up. too cool.

  19. #59

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    Quote Originally Posted by tangless
    the change to make CS no longer refresh judgements is simply taking an obsolete effect out of the game.

    I think we all have the right idea where CS is going, blizzard wants a ret pally as a melee brawler/utility healer.

    Crusader Strike:
    normal effect
    (heals party/self for %'tage)(alot like devine storm)
    (increases spell damage target takes for 6 seconds)(great raid dps debuff/slight pvp synergy buff)
    (5-10 yard lunge Attack that closes distance and has a chance to chastise your target rooting him in place(or inturupt), - my personal fix )


    Ret pallys could really use a root that isent a stun, being able to root someone that is LOS'ing/travel forming in arena could help our teamates SO much in arena. I can see it now "crusader proced BURST NOW". Ret burst is great in arena... when you are actually IN MELEE with your target. atm hunters/shadowstep rogues/warriors have a much easier time helping blow down a target at a momments notice.
    When a ret pally uses crusader strike on you, it should feel like a "special attack" instead of just a supliment to melee/judgement damage. No 41 point talent in the game is as "bland" as CS in its current form.

    I can see the animation now... a glowing holy radiance as you blow someone up. too cool.
    I actually really like that. Although all that in one spell might be a little much. I do like the closer though. Instead of Crusader Strike, make it "Crusader's Lance" : 10% Base Mana, 10 yd range, 10 second cooldown. Deals 100% Weapon Damage and skewer's the target dragging them toward you, immobilizing both them and you for 4 seconds.
    I kind of think that would be a bit Iconic

  20. #60

    Re: Incoming Crusader Strike change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightyone

    it won't happen.

    Retri same as enchance shamans have higher burst and also higher dps then an arms warrior.
    I don't know about all that.

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