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  1. #21

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by mulinexman
    The warrior is far from finished yet - we're the class that got the least changes overall. My guess is, we'll see some huge warrior changes in the next few weeks wich will determine our future.
    Personally I hope for getting the other tanking classes better with warriors still being the #1 MT class. Although there is the possibility that this won't happen - in that case they should buff us dps-wise. Not by letting us do even more damage (at a specific point furys get under the top3 damagedealers anyway, i for instance was putting out the by far most damage since our start in MH/BT), but by giving us more utility. That would mean taking away the increased damage taking penalty of zerk stance and giving us something that requires every raid to take atleast 2 dps warriors. Then I could live with not beeing the maintank, otherweise I vote for nerfing one spec of paladins and druids (e.g. their heal has to be reduced drasticly or their dps) to make it fair and have them QQ a little too
    The sad thing is that currently, you're much more useful to whole raid dps being an arms warrior than you are being fury.

  2. #22

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    I MT with my pally, and I have never had a situation where we wanted a prot warrior to OT versus a feral druid. This is especially true in the 10 mans where a warrior doesn't bring as much utility as a druid. In Karazhan for instance, few bosses require more than one tank. If you brought a druid offtank, then you have the flexibility of good dps, innervate, buffs, and emergency heals.

    Unless you have a warrior that does godly DPS, I just don't see the situation where you would ever bring two warriors if you have one as your MT in the expansion's 10 man raids.

  3. #23

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    making arms or fury able to tank won't make finding a group better.. as the people playing fury and arms are usually bad at tanking to begin with...


    I like the fact that all 4 classes have the potential to tank.

    It's just a game.

  4. #24

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    About warriors, why shouldn't warriors OT? I play a prot warrior main, and I think some folks have been King of the Tanking Hill for too long. OT position not enough glory? Someone has to be OT and now that the playing field is being evened out so warriors are supposed to have an equal chance of being OT, warriors are complaining?! I doubt feral druids have much sympathy, really.

    Safeguard is one of the most powerful tools for OTing. A thirty second cooldown mini Shield Wall? Save that low health squishy right before an AoE? Improved Disarm for 2.2% increased raid damage (averaged). With decent amounts of strength in tank gear, it's not inconceivable that a warrior can swap into a semi-dps role midfight. Devastate's Sunder effect still has few (read one) equals and little opportunity cost, even Improved Expose Armor requires a combat rogue to give up their finisher cycle and you're still lacking a tank for whatever the warrior was tanking. Shouts are going raidwide, so even a prot warrior brings important buffs to the table, either Battleshout (a first-class AP buff) or Commanding Shout, equivalent to getting a second Fort buff.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for scaling and baseline parity. But insisting on a privileged MT position is going to fall rather flat.

    There are still improvements to be made in the Prot tree (I'm only talking about tanking here). Making Incite affect Devastate, etc. I hope Blizzard increases synergy with other tanks. It's a tanking team, people!

  5. #25

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    I can really understand the gripe that some of the "pure classes" are having. It seems that most of them only have two real raid specs (read:forms of play) and a PvP spec, instead of three separate play style specs. For instance, the live warrior's Arms tree looks terribly anemic to me. I've never played a warrior, but there are very few "Wow!" talents, as far as I can see. Rogues would be another example here. All the while, the hybrid classes all have three very distinct specs that dramatically differentiate the ways they play.

    It's nice to see that Priests are getting some Discipline love, making them a little more raid viable, but I would like to see the same happen to Rogues (as much as they are the bane of my existence), mages, and warriors. The new talent trees look significantly better than the live versions, but they still need a little work.

    To be honest, I think this whole rant stems from always having very similar group composition. I just like variety.

  6. #26

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by kittynipples
    As long as their tanking and melee dps specs are mostly populated from the same talent tree, there is no reason at all for druids to be equal to the other tanks in pure boss tanking ability since they will continue to be more beneficial to the raid if they switch to doing dps if any extra tanks aren't needed after clearing trash. I think it is perfectly acceptable for them to be sub par in both roles as long as they can easily switch from one to the other to fill the situational needs of the raid. Just have to make sure that they don't get stuck in the situation of "thanks for helping tank trash, but we really don't need you for the boss, so see you later," which they are already less likely to see than that extra prot warrior you brought along.
    Sure, 1 spec to rule them all ... NOT! But you forget that tanking feral gear is very different then feral dps gear.

    Not that much different than prot warrior in dps set. Sure you don't have MS and/or some other nice dps buffs but even like that you can outclass feral druid dps (in his own dps set) by quite a margin @ end game.

    I very much doubt that will change much in WotLK as I am pretty much sure that for tanking feral druid would still need to change at least half the gear (neck, back, both rings and trinkets) it not even entire set.

    Feral DPS set <> Feral Tanking set

  7. #27

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by kittynipples
    The sad thing is that currently, you're much more useful to whole raid dps being an arms warrior than you are being fury.
    In a perfect setup and all skilled players yes. Sadly that's not the case in my raid, so I'm way more useful as a fury that puts out insane DPS (compared to other classes, like 2,2k on Teron where the second position is around 1,6 - 1,7k).

    Quote Originally Posted by Finelle
    About warriors, why shouldn't warriors OT?
    I can only speak for myself: I have no interest in running around waiting for something I may tank. Maybe it's ok for others but I won't do it. Either I can be the #1 MT or an excelept DPS or I will reroll something else (and that's the main reason why they can't nerf warriors too hard, you'd end up with having only PVPlers and noone to give shouts :P).

  8. #28

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by RustyDran
    I'm pretty annoyed how fast BlizzCon sold, the website was down the entire day for here in Australia. I couldn't buy my ticket until I got to the page finally and it was sold out. I go on the General Discussion Forums/BlizzCon Forums and people are selling there tickets, makes me angry.
    They cant sell the tickets unless the buyer is willing to show alot of trust because the only way they can do it is if they meet the buyer of the tickets at blizzcon because whoever bought them must be present tp pick them up. Im sure some will but you wont see alot of this, but Ill bet there will be alot of people pissed off they got scammed. Yeah Blizzard really fucked alot of people with thier shitty handeling of how the tickeks were sold, I didnt get any tried all day both days and nothing, and I live 45 min from where its being held.

  9. #29

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by RustyDran
    I'm pretty annoyed how fast BlizzCon sold, the website was down the entire day for here in Australia. I couldn't buy my ticket until I got to the page finally and it was sold out. I go on the General Discussion Forums/BlizzCon Forums and people are selling there tickets, makes me angry.
    ebay.com

  10. #30

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by mulinexman
    I can only speak for myself: I have no interest in running around waiting for something I may tank. Maybe it's ok for others but I won't do it. Either I can be the #1 MT or an excelept DPS or I will reroll something else (and that's the main reason why they can't nerf warriors too hard, you'd end up with having only PVPlers and noone to give shouts :P).
    If you won't do it, then how can you expect another player to pick up your slack? If, as you say, warriors should insist on "MT or bust", then I'm glad to say that Blizz will just run heedlessly over such inflated egos. Be reasonable.

  11. #31

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Finelle, there is nothing wrong with what Mulinexman posted.
    It is the playstyle that appeals to him.
    Personally I enjoy tanking and OT roles equally.
    He does not.
    I completely understand someone who has no interest in waiting around for something to off tank when (in this posters case, and a handful of excellent dps warriors) he could be specced differently and be doing very respectable damage, consistently.
    The reason why he can expect others to "pick up his slack" as you put it (really not applicable in his case since he's putting out 2.2K dps...) is because of players like myself who ENJOY doing what he does not want to.

  12. #32

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    What I'm trying to point out is that class design shouldn't take that into account, because while individual players are free to declare "MT or no tanking for me", designing any class around being the "#1 MT because else I'll respec DPS" is something that A) Blizzard has stated an intention not to, and B) completely unsustainable given that a player of any of the four declared tanking classes could demand such a thing, completely negating any argument about that.

  13. #33

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Puntar
    Sure, 1 spec to rule them all ... NOT! But you forget that tanking feral gear is very different then feral dps gear.

    Not that much different than prot warrior in dps set. Sure you don't have MS and/or some other nice dps buffs but even like that you can outclass feral druid dps (in his own dps set) by quite a margin @ end game.

    I very much doubt that will change much in WotLK as I am pretty much sure that for tanking feral druid would still need to change at least half the gear (neck, back, both rings and trinkets) it not even entire set.

    Feral DPS set <> Feral Tanking set
    A prot warrior/paladin is going to be collecting his offspec dps gear at the same rate that a bear will be collecting his, so your point doesn't matter. A feral druid's dps and tank specs share most of the same talents from a single tree, with some differences in what you take from the other two. If a warrior were to attempt to take as many dps talents with his tanking ones as a feral druid has available inherently, the warrior would just be weak at both. That's the thing, feral druids are much more versatile in their ability to switch between tanking and dps roles as the situation demands than any of the other tanking classes. Feral druids aren't specialists, and people who want to play as strictly one role or the other are missing the whole point.

    Furthermore, as long as the druid is capable of battle rezzing a dead healer or innervating somebody (something a MT is not likely going to have time to be doing) you might as well have the druid doing dps or be on add tanking duty as needed since they don't normally occupy your time the whole fight. Unless there was a fight where you just absolutely needed a druid to MT to even out lots of heavy spike damage (or some other special case reason), or you're farming and it doesn't matter, I would always put a warrior or paladin in the MT role before a druid.

  14. #34

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    im realy sad that the prot. warrior will no longer be the tank class. nr.1

    from the begining of wow the prot. warrior was designt to be the best class, to tank and when we raided mc, bwl, aq40 and naxx, we allways had 2 prot, 1 prot/dps spec and 2 fully dps spec warriors.

    now you realy only need 1 warrior in a raid, cuz there are druides and pallys, that can tank now, and the dps warrior realy only gives commanding shout to the raid. a warlock or a rogue would do more dmg then the dps warrior.

    and when wotlk comes you don`t need the warrior any more because the dk, druide and pally can be main tanks now and the warrior just isn`t good enough at pve dmg to take with you in a 5 man or 10 man

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  15. #35

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Druids are like a healing blackhole, I much prefer more mitigation than a huge HP pool. Its great they can easily get 20k+ HP but the constant healing can be time consuming in a fight that requires multi-tasking, and in long fights can sometimes stress mana.

    Warrior is my fav thing class to heal. I like a warrior / pally duo.

  16. #36

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    The only thing at the moment I really want to see is the buff that warriors give to the raid get a time increase. Every class has gotten their buff times increased one way or the other they need to do the same for warriors. And before you even say warriors can spec to increase it, you can shove those pts where the sun don't shine. We shouldn't have to waste pts in a talent to increase the buff time since no other class has too. All they need to do is make it an aura or something like a hunters aspect so it just stays on until you die or change it.

  17. #37

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by haeresis
    Druids are like a healing blackhole, I much prefer more mitigation than a huge HP pool. Its great they can easily get 20k+ HP but the constant healing can be time consuming in a fight that requires multi-tasking, and in long fights can sometimes stress mana.

    Warrior is my fav thing class to heal. I like a warrior / pally duo.
    I've never had a high level healer, but I've been told by several in my guild that they prefer healing druids over warriors and paladins, because druids generally take damage in a more consistent manner, rather than in spikes. I guess it has to do with the block mechanic for warriors and paladins?

  18. #38

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    but but, Warriors will still be the main main tank... right?

  19. #39

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodwine77
    I've never had a high level healer, but I've been told by several in my guild that they prefer healing druids over warriors and paladins, because druids generally take damage in a more consistent manner, rather than in spikes. I guess it has to do with the block mechanic for warriors and paladins?
    It is actually a lot easier to heal any tank that has a large health pool. In a 25 man raid situation you are going to be spam healing that one person unless you are assigned to heal the raid. This is why most tanks in a 25 man situation will favor larger stamina over increased avoidance. Druids are just a different tanking animal(pun intended) compared to most. They take more hits, but the armor boost helps to even it out. I'll be interested to see how DK's handle this since they are in much the same situation without a shield. With the reduced spell damage, they may be a great MT choice assuming they can handle the heavy melee bosses as well.

  20. #40

    Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by enno
    For druids in their current form where they can do near-top dps and near-top tankign with the same spec I4d agree.. But sayign a paladin can tank, dps and heal is bullshit.. in that comparison warriors can tank and dps too..
    If you spec 100% for it and can't do anything else worth while during that spec.. you're supposed to be equal to the other people fillign that roll. Or do you realy want rogues to stand neck and shoulders above everyone elses dps caus we can 'only' dps? (we should btw, but only caus we don't buff anyone)
    Have you ever raided or even played WoW ?Feral Druid dps is about 40% of rogue dps
    Dps goes like that :
    Rogue
    Hunter
    Lock
    mage
    fury wars
    Enhancement shamans
    Shadow priests
    Retardin



    Feral druids

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