Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

[Rhune]

Who freaking cares about prot dps for warriors. We have so far seen nothing for the arms tree. Zero. Slam/Blood Frenzy builds are going to go buh byes with the current talent trees. I dont know why the DPS warrior comunity seems to be ignored by Blizzard.

This goes doubly for the Horribly poor arms treee right now which is the only reason we are viable in pvp anyway. OOO Bladestorm!!! Vomit.

[Soopr Serial]

I'm pretty annoyed how fast BlizzCon sold, the website was down the entire day for here in Australia. I couldn't buy my ticket until I got to the page finally and it was sold out. I go on the General Discussion Forums/BlizzCon Forums and people are selling there tickets, makes me angry.

This happened to me. I checked at midnight before I went to bed. Woke up at 9 pacific time and apparently all the tickets were gone. Blizzard dropped the ball, especially with random maintenance where some people could buy tickets, and others couldn't.

I also agree with the poster above me (Rhune) about the directions warriors are taking. Blizzard wants all classes to tank equally, but then they said the main role of the warrior is to tank. So if the warriors can't do anything else but tank well, they should almost always be the MT...

[mulinexman]

If you won't do it, then how can you expect another player to pick up your slack? If, as you say, warriors should insist on "MT or bust", then I'm glad to say that Blizz will just run heedlessly over such inflated egos. Be reasonable.

You do realize this is a game? I do what I want and when I decide that they destroyed the class/spec, I stop playing it. Or don't you allow me to do so? Well ok, then I'll quit my job, you'll pay all my expenses and I'll do what you want - totally ok with me

Have you ever raided or even played WoW ?Feral Druid dps is about 40% of rogue dps
Dps goes like that :
Rogue
Hunter
Lock
mage
fury wars
Enhancement shamans
Shadow priests
Retardin



Feral druids

All correct, although the order from #1 to #8 isn't that much right ^^

Who freaking cares about prot dps for warriors.

Noone if you are the #1 tank. If others become better or equally, you have to gain something from that.

[saggo]

PvP Snare Ability sounds pretty awesome

[dfjdejulio]

It's nice to see that Priests are getting some Discipline love, making them a little more raid viable, but I would like to see the same happen to Rogues...

Honestly... I'd like them to figure out a way to give Rogues the ability to realistically evasion-tank, so that a dedicated and skilled rogue with exactly the right gear could tank as well a mediocre warrior in the worst tanking spec.

[blahblahnameblah]

Have you ever raided or even played WoW ?Feral Druid dps is about 40% of rogue dps
Dps goes like that :
Rogue
Hunter
Lock
mage
fury wars
Enhancement shamans
Shadow priests
Retardin



Feral druids

You've played with some shitty ferals if SP and Retardins are out dpsing them.

[mrwoods]

You've played with some shitty ferals if SP and Retardins are out dpsing them.

Well I could say the same about your shadow priests and retardins, they both should outdps your feral druid in BT & SWP

[Newor]

Ok, i'm fine with philosophy that only one class can't be viable as MT. I'm fine with fact that we will now compete with 3 other classes for MT position on more equival terms(ofcourse, there will be fights which will ask for specific MT, but that isn't concern anyways). I wouldn't call warrior changes nerfs and other tank classes changes buffs IF and only IF we follow all new Blizzard philosophy "lets make tanking more fun and equival".

But i don't understand how they could downgrade "THE MAIN ROLL" of warrior AND give nothing instead ? Fury isn't more viable in WOTLK then in TBC (acording to beta testers), there were few changes in our arms and fury trees that can be called "wierd" at best, new 51 point talents are gimmicks for W3 fans... Ok, we DID get buffs to our 30min CD skills reduced to 5min CDs (even with effects nerfed, i do think those changes are still buffs).

Really why make only tanking "more fun", why not make dps "more fun". (Sorry i'm gonna skip part about making healing more fun).

Yes, we keep hearing that game isn't finished yet, that they are working on warrior class and so on, but guys, time is ticking away.. If they planned to boost our Pve DPS and viability, wouldn't they do it by now ?... Only way (and simplest way actually) to level playing field of fury/arms PvE build with other DPS classes is to give somekind of CC usuable only in PvE (and/or with reduced effect in PvP). Shamans and paladins did get one, i don't see reason why couldn't we get one ? Well, in worse case scenario, we can always Bladestorm of the edge of cliff and Heroic leap our way to safety...

Wait, actually we can't... *splatering sound*...

Couldn't agree more... total Win.

Read and learn about trade-off Blizzard, please

[haeresis]

We can't all have our cake and eat it too.. (was that lame..)

What I'm saying is every class shouldn't be able to do every ability of any other class.

If warriors get a CC why not have mages heal? Doesn't make sense to me.

To me pve warriors should fit the tanking role. I don't want to see all the classes get water down abilities of every other class so we have whole bunch of the same thing.

[gnoop]

yeah I agree, DKs and warriors need to be the best tank in game otherwise they are useless.

I mean paladins shouldn't be main tanks since they can dps and heal too.
Paladins shouldn't be main healers either since they can dps and tank.
Paladins shouldn't be main dpsers either since they can heal and tank.
Same for druids.

A Druid or Pally that's healing isn't going to be able to tank. A Pally might pull it off a bit better than a Druid, but even then, they might find themselves in some mail or leather pieces. A Druid is even worse off without the added armor and very little dodge with no agility.

Likewise, a Druid or Pally that's tanking isn't going to be pulling out much in the way of heals. It's a full gear swap at a minimum and, even with that, you're not looking at a healer that's as good as their healing spec counterparts.

A tank Druid tanks. A Tank Pally tanks. There's absolutely no reason why Warriors and DK's need to be better tanks than Druids and Pallys simply because they can be gimped healers. It's a weak excuse. Perhaps you should be asking for Fury/Arms buffs, then, rather than nerfs to two other tanking classes? It would certainly be a better way to go.

No, this change is for the better. It will be better for guild progression if they're not so dependent on one or two people of a single class and it will mean a potential of gearing more than one main tank at a time if good drops can be spread among the classes. Each tanking class may have their bag of tricks that make them better for certain fights and that's fine. But not having to have any class as a mandatory tank for a boss is quite nice.

[kittynipples]

But not having to have any class as a mandatory tank for a boss is quite nice.

It also means more carbon-copy boss abilities since you can't have anything that isn't generic enough that it can't be countered by all of them.

[gnoop]

It also means more carbon-copy boss abilities since you can't have anything that isn't generic enough that it can't be countered by all of them.

There's a small downside to the individual vs. a large upside to the raid/guild. It's a trade off.

Otherwise you'd end up having to put in gimmicky fights that Warriors could NOT tank. Which I wouldn't mind, really.

You could stand to be a little creative, though. Certainly the 4 tanking classes won't be generic just due to the lack of Warrior-only gimmick fights that Warriors cheered about.

[Pyrostemplar]

but but, Warriors will still be the main main tank... right?

Yes! And mages main ranged DPS!

aah, wait a minute...

....

... Want a cookie? :-X

[kittynipples]

There's a small downside to the individual vs. a large upside to the raid/guild. It's a trade off.

Otherwise you'd end up having to put in gimmicky fights that Warriors could NOT tank. Which I wouldn't mind, really.

You could stand to be a little creative, though. Certainly the 4 tanking classes won't be generic just due to the lack of Warrior-only gimmick fights that Warriors cheered about.

The problem with this attitude is that when you create classes with unique abilities that others are lacking, you essentially say that you can't design anything to actually require their use or else it isn't fair to the others. Spell reflect is a unique warrior ability, but if you never designed any content where it mattered if it was even used, then why have the ability in the first place?

[Fablewynd]

All Blizzard is doing is giving Warriors something they deserve: A swift and sudden crash back down to earth.

C
x

[Iceleet]

To all those people who are like "OMG!11 BLIZZARD DIDN'T IMPLANT WARRIOR CHANGES FOR FURY!1" uhh... they like have 2 areas that they need to work on (Icecrown and the other one forgot the name), so seriously what do you think is more important now? revamping a class which can be easily fixed or areas which are going to be huge and possibly filled with bugs which need to be fixed? so relax and wait until they actually implant those areas if there aren't any warrior changes by then... you're screwed! (not)

[Finelle]

You do realize this is a game? I do what I want and when I decide that they destroyed the class/spec, I stop playing it. Or don't you allow me to do so? Well ok, then I'll quit my job, you'll pay all my expenses and I'll do what you want - totally ok with me

All correct, although the order from #1 to #8 isn't that much right ^^

Noone if you are the #1 tank. If others become better or equally, you have to gain something from that.

What I'm trying to point out is that class design shouldn't take that into account, because while individual players are free to declare "MT or no tanking for me", designing any class around being the "#1 MT because else I'll respec DPS" is something that A) Blizzard has stated an intention not to, and B) completely unsustainable given that a player of any of the four declared tanking classes could demand such a thing, completely negating any argument about that.

[mulinexman]

Perhaps you should be asking for Fury/Arms buffs, then, rather than nerfs to two other tanking classes? It would certainly be a better way to go.

Now lets think about this. Warriors get nerfed in tanking so they're exchangeable. Instead they get buffed in Fury/Arms dpswise. Ever played a DPS warrior? If they let us put out even more damage, the same thing that happened to mages regarding destro locks will happen to other melee classes. Why take a rogue if a warrior does so much more damage and can change gear and even tank a little?
Warriors are unique to their scaling in game. We start as shitty dps, get "ok", then do pretty nice damage and end up being one of the most powerful dps classes when the current content comes to his end (e.g. SWP for TBC). If that want to change this fact, then the warrior class dies - it would need so much tuning, that most of the aspect of the class will simply vanish. And now ask people who play warriors - do Fury or Arms warriors demand complete revamps of their specs wich result in us doing insanely more damage or do it earlier? I dont. I like it the way it is, I know it comes with DPS warriors having a very hard time to find a raid but It's ok, that's just what seperates us from warlocks for example. But when you take tanking now from us - and I know, we still could offtank and kill rats or so, seriously, we want to have some fun in the game and if some warriors say here that they would be happy to offtank, then they should think about a reroll or a break from raiding - we have nothing left in the current state of the game. Ok sure PVP - I shit on PVP. PVE dps? Read the above. I mean ok, let me put out easily 3k dps (compared to the current content) but prepare for flames you never saw so far ^^

But basicly it's like someone above me said already: They didn't do much with the warrior yet. There are so many changes coming in that discussion about how they should do it is just for our personal entertainment - yeah, or do you really think they have no idea what to do and read all this to find it out? Blizzard is a litte more professional.

[gnoop]

The problem with this attitude is that when you create classes with unique abilities that others are lacking, you essentially say that you can't design anything to actually require their use or else it isn't fair to the others. Spell reflect is a unique warrior ability, but if you never designed any content where it mattered if it was even used, then why have the ability in the first place?

What will end up happening is that there are fights that are made easier with one tank vs. another. It's already in TBC. Illidan can be tanked by a Paladin and even a Rogue. Druids have tanked fights with crushing blows. About the only two I haven't heard a Druid tanking are Kael and Illidan. Lots of pulls in TK, ZA, and Hyjal scream Prot Paladin.

So a fight can be made where spell reflect is useful to the raid. If it's absolutely required (perhaps minus some cheesy tactic like having the tank soulstoned), quite honestly, it's a failure on the part of Blizzard.

[gnoop]

Now lets think about this. Warriors get nerfed in tanking so they're exchangeable. Instead they get buffed in Fury/Arms dpswise. Ever played a DPS warrior? If they let us put out even more damage, the same thing that happened to mages regarding destro locks will happen to other melee classes. Why take a rogue if a warrior does so much more damage and can change gear and even tank a little?
Warriors are unique to their scaling in game. We start as shitty dps, get "ok", then do pretty nice damage and end up being one of the most powerful dps classes when the current content comes to his end (e.g. SWP for TBC). If that want to change this fact, then the warrior class dies - it would need so much tuning, that most of the aspect of the class will simply vanish. And now ask people who play warriors - do Fury or Arms warriors demand complete revamps of their specs wich result in us doing insanely more damage or do it earlier? I dont. I like it the way it is, I know it comes with DPS warriors having a very hard time to find a raid but It's ok, that's just what seperates us from warlocks for example. But when you take tanking now from us - and I know, we still could offtank and kill rats or so, seriously, we want to have some fun in the game and if some warriors say here that they would be happy to offtank, then they should think about a reroll or a break from raiding - we have nothing left in the current state of the game. Ok sure PVP - I shit on PVP. PVE dps? Read the above. I mean ok, let me put out easily 3k dps (compared to the current content) but prepare for flames you never saw so far ^^

But basicly it's like someone above me said already: They didn't do much with the warrior yet. There are so many changes coming in that discussion about how they should do it is just for our personal entertainment - yeah, or do you really think they have no idea what to do and read all this to find it out? Blizzard is a litte more professional.

Yes, I'm quite aware of Fury Warrior scaling. Rather a reverse Druid. Hence why our guild leader is anxious to get a decent, stable Fury Warrior into the guild. And also why I've started one.

The comment was more because someone had said that Warriors and DKs should be the best tanks because they can't heal. It's a silly and outdated notion. So, if said posted was suggesting that the raid viability of Fury either wasn't enough or wasn't good enough, I thought to point out requesting a buff. Of course, it doesn't have to be a dps buff. Warriors have the opposite scaling of Feral Druids.

Some days, I just get the feeling that many people would be happier with a single tank class, a single healing class, and maybe 3 or 4 dps classes.