Vengeance nerf?

[Brasko]

No such thing as hybrid class. You have one job thats it. 'pure' dps classes means nothing apart from adaptability that those who have one tree will always lack. Thats the 'fucking' point.

Right, because in the min-maxing raiding scene, there's more than one viable spec for rogue/warlock/mage.

[Utal]

Exactly, why should Paladins get 3 viable raiding speccs and warriors get two majorly great ones? or rogues who only have one Maximum one.

[Tachi]

to poster above. Do u realize how selfish that statement is?

dude. Seriously.

"WAAAHHH paladins can go to raids now but my rogue has to spec a certain way, therefore we should nerf paladins"

your reasoning is SERIOUSLY Flawed.

[Rawberry]

Exactly, why should Paladins get 3 viable raiding speccs and warriors get two majorly great ones? or rogues who only have one Maximum one.

You do realise it is extremely hard for someone playing a Hybrid to just switch to a certain spec whenever he or she feels like it?

Someone playing a Paladin can not just decide to heal in the Sunwell raid they have that evening after being Retribution for 2-3 months. Gear and experience is required, and amassing both takes time.

[Merin]

Haha, Tree Form in that video with the Bear/Moonkin armor multiplier is hilarious. Still going to be plenty tough even with just 100%, though.

Paladin damage is going to have the axe brought down on it, hard. Anyone with any past experience with the game can tell you that. Unless they bait and switch... again, raiding will be easier, and utility will be souped up to justify a spot.

Defensive as some people want to get about it, you may as well get the Kleenex ready if you're genuinely expecting beta damage.

The biggest hing Blizzard needs to do is stop nerfing shit that shouldn't be nerfed, such as elements that support scaling and go after the bursty, random, cooldown popping elements instead. They always gut the core combat system with Retribution, and it's retarded. Going after shit like Vengence instead of Command Judgements, etc.

[Belisarius]

i still see paladins as the kings / queens of burst. it just seems wrong for them to have such sustaned dps and be one of the stronges buffers in game. somthing has to give lol.

Meliancill, you obviously have no end game expereince as a paladin in any way shape or form. Your comments regarding Paladins, particularly retribution are disturbing to a player such as I, who has had to deal with the shortcomings of this class for the last 2.5 years+, in the holy, protection and retribution trees.
I'll give you my experiences atm. I have played Ret/Prot the last 12 months non-stop (as opposed to holy before that because we were forced to do that) Our buffing abilities don't matter diddly squat ok, guilds are having paladins in raids to buff the group and log out kk.
Retribution is severely lacking in dps. We are 66% of a true dps class. I come 3-5th in total damage done and in actual dps generally in my 25 man raids, does that mean Ret is a superb dps class? No it isn't, it means the nubs playing mages, locks, rogues and hunters haven't geared properly and don't use their rotations better than I do on my paladin (primarily because pretty much i've played paladins and shamans only the past 2.5 years and know them back to front) and I also have to deal with server lag from australia and im alliance.
Ret does have slight utility, but not enough to make up for 900 dps in Tier 6 gear. Retribution needs to be basically doing the same dps as a dps classes to really get an invite to a raid or 5 man (when I say near, I would definitely say we need to be 85% of a dps class). Only if you are exceptional and/or lucky atm, will you get into a full on raiding guild. I was personally lucky to get a break, and I proved my worth, due to my gear theorycrafting and knowledge of pallies over the years, all in game testing done by myself.
Please do not come on here saying we should be nerfed when clearly we need to be at this level of dps to be viable in 5, 10 and 25 man content, you have no idea what you are talking about, and it's morons like you that can spoil what should be rightfully implemented. Retribution is a "DPS" tree, and so we should be able to dish damage out with the best of them. fullstop. Else we don't get invites. People need to get over it and accept that paladins deserve to dps, else we have nothing, it's Blizzards fault this mindset has occured anyway.

[Rawberry]

Paladin damage is going to have the axe brought down on it, hard. Anyone with any past experience with the game can tell you that. Unless they bait and switch... again, raiding will be easier, and utility will be souped up to justify a spot.

Defensive as some people want to get about it, you may as well get the Kleenex ready if you're genuinely expecting beta damage.

What non-Paladin (and some Paladin) players do not realise is that the changes in the underlying mechanics of our class is the biggest change we have coming.

For example the new instant attack Divine Storm, our Seals and Judgements getting streamlined and a solid way of keeping our manapool topped.


These are all changes that cannot get 'nerfed', and these are the changes that will set a whole new course for the Retribution Paladin, not that fact that we are dealing insane amounts of damage on the Beta realm.

[Belisarius]

we are not a warrior we are not in any way ment to hold that kind of power and buff and heal and use plate and well other things i cant pull off the top of my head at the moment. a hybrid is a class that can do multiple things but are normaly weeker at any given one. i know rets use burst to drop targets but 1/4 hp on a well geard / best resil target on demand is way to high.

We arent a warrior, we are better, we are warriors purveying the holy light smiting down foes who dare stand against the good of the world, protecting the weak from danger etc etc. A paladin has always been a force to be reckoned with in other tales.
Blizzard made em lame. I mean seriously how did the alliance manage to defeat the scourge if pallies were so p**s poor? I mean a paladins damage dealing and abilities from the word getgo to now, the alliance would never have crushed the scourge or demons, no way in goddamn hell.
Bring on WotLK and a decent hybrid class able to spec 1 decent tree out of 3 trees and do their intended job well (cause god knows ya cant do two or all three as other people bitch about), instead of 1 out of 3 in a very mediocre fashion atm and barely getting a raid invite across the board (and we wont mention PvP shortcomings - god forbid).

[Space Troll]

No such thing as hybrid class. You have one job thats it. 'pure' dps classes means nothing apart from adaptability that those who have one tree will always lack. Thats the 'fucking' point.

Don't be such a hog, let other class builds DPS a little. As an Enhancement Shaman I'm fine doing less, but I know it hurts to be nerfed and feels great to be buffed. At least you didn't get one of the most godly talents taken away from you =/. Man I miss Weapon Specialization. Oh well, we got Maelstrom Weapon now =P

[Belisarius]

What non-Paladin (and some Paladin) players do not realise is that the changes in the underlying mechanics of our class is the biggest change we have coming.

For example the new instant attack Divine Storm, our Seals and Judgements getting streamlined and a solid way of keeping our manapool topped.


These are all changes that cannot get 'nerfed', and these are the changes that will set a whole new course for the Retribution Paladin, not that fact that we are dealing insane amounts of damage on the Beta realm.

Lets just put it this way Rawberry, WAR is on the agenda for a long time WoW player like myself, and if Blizzard nerfs paladins from where they are in beta right now because people bitch about us being on a similar dps level footing, it's bye bye WoW from me and numerous of my friends online. I'm not the only one that thinks this way (if you have a gander on the WoW forums), Blizzard realizes this, so much so, they have stolen elements of gameplay from WAR. What with Achievements, a better crafting system (actually items you can use god forbid the thought), Ret pallies healing with damage done (warrior priest anyone) and god knows what else, thats just a casual glance. I eould have loved to have played the beta for both and compare. Oh what competition does for the end consumer.

[Belisarius]

Exactly, why should Paladins get 3 viable raiding speccs and warriors get two majorly great ones? or rogues who only have one Maximum one.

Oh poor rogues did they ever get the short end of the stick, what with their abilities to avoid what 90%+ damage, ability to sustain all spell damage for long enough time to dps down even shaman in chainmail armour & shield, can totally lock out any class so they cant even move till they die, even after using PvP trinket. Geezuz give us a break. Rogues have 3 awesome dps trees, one designed first and foremost for PvP, they have more longevity than a paladin these days in similar gear, and if ya don't, your a nub.

[Rawberry]

Lets just put it this way Rawberry, WAR is on the agenda for a long time WoW player like myself, and if Blizzard nerfs paladins from where they are in beta right now because people bitch about us being on a similar dps level footing, it's bye bye WoW from me and numerous of my friends online. I'm not the only one that thinks this way (if you have a gander on the WoW forums), Blizzard realizes this, so much so, they have stolen elements of gameplay from WAR. What with Achievements, a better crafting system (actually items you can use god forbid the thought), Ret pallies healing with damage done (warrior priest anyone) and god knows what else, thats just a casual glance. I eould have loved to have played the beta for both and compare. Oh what competition does for the end consumer.

Being a Beta tester myself I can say with almost absolute certainty that the Retribution damage output will be tuned, or as some would say "nerfed". As it stands the Retribution Paladin would not be competing with the other classes for top DPS simply because we would out damage them by a mile.

I'm a longtime Retribution Paladin myself and I've been DPS'ing since Molten Core so I want the changes as desperatly as any of you, but at the moment the Retribution damage output in the Beta is too insane and should be tuned.


As a sitenote (and I do not want this thread to turn into a "What MMO will be better" thread); I've seen and played the WAR-Beta on multiple occasions and IMO it is - just as Age of Conan was - overhyped.

[Garrum]

If the damage doesn't stay almost as high as it is atm on beta, then theres no point in buying the expansion. Without damage that high, or VERY near it, we will not be able to pressure healers in arena in PvP gear.

Stop trying to judge the damage as too high from videos of paladins beating the shit out of PvE geared keyboard turners, and of videos of bugged damage. Versus arena teams the damage will not be one shotting people, but it will make healers work HARD to keep the target alive, versus stopping healing to CC or mana burn as they do now.

The bottom line is that since they REFUSE to give us other tools to fight with, like intercept/deathgrip/feral charge, or hamstring/crippling poison/frost nova/frost shackle, or pummel/kick/deadly throw/earthshock/counterspell, there is no other option to make us viable in high level arena except very high damage. No repeatable CC, no healing reduction, no snares, no roots, no catch up ability, no spell interrupt, no short CD self defense abilities. No ret build worth talking about will have spritual focus, so theres no healing. All we have is damage and a badly nerfed cleanse, so really just damage.

When the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, it has to be a REALLY BIG HAMMER so you can compete at the high end of arena. That is simply all there is to it. We HAVE TO HAVE very high damage to compensate for our lack of everything else. Otherwise they wont have improved anything, like they did when BC launched, and huge numbers of paladins will just quit rather than suffer through ANOTHER year and a half of STILL being the worst class in the game.

[Rawberry]

If the damage doesn't stay almost as high as it is atm on beta, then theres no point in buying the expansion. Without damage that high, or VERY near it, we will not be able to pressure healers in arena in PvP gear.

Yes it is. How about you try to find an arena partner / arena partners who have classes that compliment your abilities as a Paladin?

Stop trying to judge the damage as too high from videos of paladins beating the shit out of PvE geared keyboard turners, and of videos of bugged damage. Versus arena teams the damage will not be one shotting people, but it will make healers work HARD to keep the target alive, versus stopping healing to CC or mana burn as they do now.

My comments on the high Retribution damage output are not based on any videos going about, but first hand experience on the WOTLK Beta as a level 77 Retribution Paladin.

The Retribution Paladin damage output on in the current build is too high, period.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

The argument about hybrids doing less damage than pure DPS classes is quite silly.

If you spend all of your talents points on damage output, you should have maximum, competitive damage output.

Every class has 3 trees, and Blizzard is trying very hard to make all three trees, for each class viable in some respect.

Yes, some classes dont have the option to do anything but DPS, but if blizzard does things right, it will be 3 different ways to do DPS, each with advantages and disadvantages, such as one spec aimed at burst and PvP, one at steady sustained, one with more utlity and lower damage, but all equally viable in "endgame" be it endgame PvP or PvE.

Mages, Hunters, Rogues, and Warlocks dont have the option to heal or tank, but that doesn't mean their personal damage should always be higher than that of a Paladin, Priest, Shaman, Warrior, Druid or DK.

Paladins have a DPS tree that functions in both PvE and PvP, and while it provides additional group benefits while doing damage, so does a Rogue, if both have spent all of their talents to do maximum PvE DPS, I see no reason why one should outmatch the other. Sure the Paladin can hop ships and spec to be a great tank or healer, but the Rogue can hop ships to two very different trees which will (By WotLK, if Blizzard does it right) offer their own unique tools and abilities, and still be effective.

Even Druids shouldn't be punished for being Feral tanks/DPS, because they still have points to spend to make them tanks or DPS, and doing both at once weakens one or the other.

On-the-fly options like healing, slapping on a shield, and so forth are easily balanced and matched by the simple versatility a Rogue has in changing tactics for dealing damage, stuns, poisons, strikes, etc. A rogue can be very unpredictable, he's going to try and hurt you, but even if you figure out his spec, he might change tactics very quickly, just like a Paladin might grab his mace + Shield to start healing.

[Merin]

They're not going to wildly overpower you just so you can pressure healers solo. They're going to improve you so you fit in with reasonable groups, that's coming straight from Blizzard. As far as they said, they already consider you to be solid, and I agree. We have a Ret Paladin in our raid guild who does well, and is over 2k in 3v3. Not too shabby for the retarded stigma the tree has.

People need to set their expectations to reasonable levels. The redesign and comfort, raid fitting and 3v3/5v5 qualities Retribution will bring will be a fair deal better.

Paladins have plenty of unique tools to fight with as is, and they'll have even more in the expansion. You're not not a goddamn Warrior, and if you want to be one so bad; reroll one. End of story. Deal with it or quit.

[Liistrad]

If the damage doesn't stay almost as high as it is atm on beta, then theres no point in buying the expansion. Without damage that high, or VERY near it, we will not be able to pressure healers in arena in PvP gear.

Stop trying to judge the damage as too high from videos of paladins beating the shit out of PvE geared keyboard turners, and of videos of bugged damage. Versus arena teams the damage will not be one shotting people, but it will make healers work HARD to keep the target alive, versus stopping healing to CC or mana burn as they do now.

The bottom line is that since they REFUSE to give us other tools to fight with, like intercept/deathgrip/feral charge, or hamstring/crippling poison/frost nova/frost shackle, or pummel/kick/deadly throw/earthshock/counterspell, there is no other option to make us viable in high level arena except very high damage. No repeatable CC, no healing reduction, no snares, no roots, no catch up ability, no spell interrupt, no short CD self defense abilities. No ret build worth talking about will have spritual focus, so theres no healing. All we have is damage and a badly nerfed cleanse, so really just damage.

When the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, it has to be a REALLY BIG HAMMER so you can compete at the high end of arena. That is simply all there is to it. We HAVE TO HAVE very high damage to compensate for our lack of everything else. Otherwise they wont have improved anything, like they did when BC launched, and huge numbers of paladins will just quit rather than suffer through ANOTHER year and a half of STILL being the worst class in the game.

Thats funny, I thought that the pvp utility of the paladin class came from its ability to defend. But I guess that if you play a pala, and really feel the need to have all those great utility tools, maybe you should roll the classes that have them, since they are some much better than the paladin class.
But wait, aren't retri paladins actually good and feared in arenas? I'm confused, because reading all of this, it sure seems that it just sucks balls to be a paladin.

Or maybe it was just another retarded post by someone who really needs to l2p his class!

[Rawberry]

The argument about hybrids doing less damage than pure DPS classes is quite silly.

You have to understand that the majority of the World of warcraft players chose their class not because it suited them the most or because it seemed to most "fun" to them, but because while playing that class they could be "the best" in a specific role.

It's important for them to be "the best", they need that boost in e-peen. It's like a drug.

And with being the best I do not mean skillwise, but by default. Basicly they want to be top DPS, healing or tanking just by strapping a keyboard to their forehead and facerolling it across a solid surface.


And now their crown is being contested by a HYBRID, by someone who can "do it all"? They just can't handle that.

[Merin]

Or maybe it was just another retarded post by someone who really needs to l2p his class!

Seriously. Granted, I haven't been Retribution since a few fun-runs in Naxxramas, Retribution is already doing decently in BC lately. WOTLK is going to be such a big paradigm shift for hybrids in general. The boosts Ret got are going to make it a fairly quality staple in 3's and 5's and of course raiding.

The notion that all of the Paladin's MASSIVE UTILITY is worthless because you can't frontload gib a healer with damage that would make a Warglaive Rogue blush or have a bunch of Warrior or Shaman techniques is just fucking STUPID. It's a group game based on of playing off of each other.

It's important for them to be "the best", they need that boost in e-peen. It's like a drug.

Neither of the two classes I play as back and forth mains are throughput based, but I don't have a hard time seeing why classes like Rogue, which is based off of absolute purity of damage output, or other classes in general which have no options other than DPS wouldn't be higher, and that seems t o be what Blizzard is going for according to GC.

It's a hell of a lot easier to respec than to reroll. I accumulated a hell of a dps set for my Priest just by picking up unwanted raid loot and from old badges.

[Liistrad]

You have to understand that the majority of the World of warcraft players chose their class not because it suited them the most or because it seemed to most "fun" to them, but because while playing that class they could be "the best" in a specific role.

It's important for them to be "the best", they need that boost in e-peen. It's like a drug.

And with being the best I do not mean skillwise, but by default. Basicly they want to be top DPS, healing or tanking just by strapping a keyboard to their forehead and facerolling it across a solid surface.


And now their crown is being contested by a HYBRID, by someone who can "do it all"? They just can't handle that.

The hybrid-vs-pure class is not about e-peen. It might be for short-sighted people, buts its really not about that.
Its about balance.

Most people do not understand the the game isn't resumed to 3 roles (dps, healer, tank). Its MUCH more diverse than that!

You have melee dps, ranged dps, caster dps, melee aoe dps, caster aoe dps, ranged aoe dps.
As a tank you also have mitigation tank, avoidance tank and some other shit, I'm not too hot at tanks.
Healers can also be divided into single target healer, aoe healer, HoT healer and probably other stuff too, I never played a healer much.

And it doesn't stop there!
There's dps styles that are more appropriate for PvP (instants casts/burst damage) and dps styles that are more appropriate for PvE (sustained damage, class synergy debuffs).

The point is, that talent trees turn classes into specific roles in the game, and a 'pure' class has 3 specs to fulfill different roles: hunter example:
Bm - raid dps
MM - pvp/2nd tier raid dps(at least without godly gear)
SV - melee class synergy+2nd tier raid dps

If hybrids got to do everything in one single dps spec that other 'pure' classes needed different specs to do, why the fuck would anyone play pure classes? Just fucking roll a paladin/shaman/druid and you can do whatever the fuck you want in the game, better or equally as good as the other 'pure' classes.

Seriously, each hybrid that whines that they cannot be as good as a rogue/mage should really think about what their role truly is, because I can tell you right now that your role isn't to be good at everything.