Vengeance nerf?

[Belisarius]

Lot of large post itt. My two cents is that a rogue will always do more damage than a hybrid, you can say this or that(seriously sap as a raid utility??) dodge vs plate or aggro dump(dps tool...), but in the end a rogue is the only pure dps class. The only dps class that brings no real buff/debuff(say hemo and ill go Ted Kaczynski). They do and they should do more damage than others, we do less damage than them but when you factor in our buffs/debuffs it tends to even out and often times in our favor(especially if you include non talent buffs/debuffs).Now you ask "than y r not teak al palaz11!1" because you only need one ret to get the raidwide buff,even more so in lieu of the changes to auras etc, just look at the changes to other hybrids (de)buffs.That is in my opinion one of the driving reasons behind that change, so that raids aren't stacked with 5 shammies,3 shadow priests and 1 ret paladin.
Your dps will scale, they won't make their Tbc beta mistake again. Like I said earlier this change could be good "if" warranted, as it will allow certain changes and prevent potentially more devastating nerfs down the road.
The sky aint falling for paladins or rogues.

b8279 do you think it's right that Ret pallies are 1000 dps behind rogues/hunters/mages/locks in raids at tier 6 level? Do you think our measly buffs make up for that? If you know paladins like I do, the answer is No to all of those questions. Fair enough your argument. What im saying is that paladins along with their buffs are at your dps level. So a pally doing say 85-90% of your damage would be acceptable in my eyes. Else we have no use being there, as it stands now.

[Belisarius]

Am sorry but I dont agree with you at all there.

Having the ability to respec into a different role entirely is a HUGE thing for hybrids, thus their extreme usefulness and flexibility.

In no way should they be equal to the pure dps classes.

A rogue, mage, warlock or hunter cant just go pay money to respec and poof they are a pure healing class. Druids and Paladins (and even shamans, but they need love lol) can. Granted it gets pricy if you do this often enough but come on.. with dailies and the amount of money that can be made in this game, its practically not an issue.

Whats getting *old* is this whole lot of hybrids crying about wanting to be pure dps when they should have rolled a pure dps class in the first place.

Yes, I believe druids should have formidable dps. NO I don't believe they should be on par with rogues or mages or warlocks or hunters. That is just absurd.

Mate you haven't played paladins for a while have you? We cannot just change roles, as I have stated above we are lame in a full tree atm with appropriate gearing for that tree. If we are Ret and are asked to heal, yeah before TBC came out I healed with Ret/Holy build, that is no longer the case, totally impossible now. This has changed so much in TBC. As I said and peopel aren't reading who make this statement, we cannot outside of the tree we select do anything else even at 60-70% of a pure class type. Add Ret and healing gear = forget it.

[Belisarius]

Kuro, I'm pretty sure when I say that shadow priest/enh shamans/feral druids are all very valuable to a well constructed raid party.

And I do agree with you when you say that if a hybrid is better than a pure class, they should take that raid spot.

I do not agree that healing/tanking is a 'price to pay' - paladins can heal, tank and dps, and while in the current incarnation of the game they may not do all 3 in both pvp and pve, when you chose the class you probably knew what it could do, and if the only reason you chose it was to dps, it would have probably been much easier to do that with another class. Its not like anyone made you choose that class.

I, for one, enjoy having hybrids in my raid, as a hunter I deeply appreciate Blessing of Wisdom, Judgement of Wisdom, Agi totems, Spriest mana regen and crit/heal from feral druids. As a warrior, I loved having windfury, 10% ap boost and Blessing of Might.

And I'm pretty sure a lot of raiders love the hybrids buffs, but lets face it: nobody makes you play that class, if you rather fulfill a pure hardcore dps role, you are free to reroll into one, and maybe even surpass the players that made you feel bad about your class. Hybrids are for people that like to have options, and if you rather not have the extra options, you can always reroll.

No see Liistrad we dont want that, we were given a "dps" tree in the Paladin class and we want to be able to dps and we will, so get over it. Your making comment from before TBC where you seemingly think a ret pally can heal, tank or dps at the same time, we cannot. So get that through ya thick skull. Anyway means little here anymore I've had enough arguing with a dumba**e, Wrath is indeed gonna bring Ret, Prot and holy upto their rightful places with the pure classes as they always should have been. So read and weep.

[b37x]

Healing in Ret spec with ret gear works in WoTLK thanks to Sheath of Light and combined mele and spell crit. It's amazing. Just an FYI.

Also you do have heals even you are not healer you still got em.

So are draeni warriors hybrids? They've got heals.
What about rogue herbalists? In WoTLK, they've got heals.

I'm being purposefully dense because it's fun.

In all seriousness, I think blizzard is moving away from Pure vs Hybrid classes. Warriors/Rogues feel it's unfair that classes with more versatility (spec wise) can tank/dps on an even footing. But I think instead of downgrading "hybrid" dps, we're going to see them adding versatility and buffs to the formerly "pure" classes.

Look at mages. Arcane Tree gets Focus Magic (hemo, but for spells) and Improved Water Elemental is a raid-wide mana tide totem (only better). Now mages didn't ask for this. They don't want utility, synergy, or raid buffs. They want pure glorious damage. But that's not what they're getting.

I expect similar things for Rogues and Warriors. We're all hybrids now. Long live the hybrid.

[Liistrad]

Hybrids are classes that have the choice of furlfilling more than one role between dps, healer and tank, thats the way I see it.

And while a ret pally cannot heal worth shit, they can respec and heal well.

If you think you are entitled to about 90% of a rogue's DPS, it'd only be fair for him to get some more stuff tipical of hybrids no? Maybe he could heal very badly as retri palas do.

Or just buff paladins so that they can spec to be not only main healer or main tanks, but also second tier dpsers. That is pretty fair considering most 'pure' dps only have 1 of their specs that can really push max raid dps at any given gear level.

Thats a pretty good idea, to have 3 guaranteed spots in a WotLK raid.

Seriously, do you do not understand the concept of class balance?
Do you really think the game would be better if one class can do everything pretty fucking well?

There must be some real misinformation in the pala forums that leads palas do believe that everyone has it better than them, and can pretty much win at everything forever for them to be this adamant about getting every role in the game.

[Garrum]

Thats funny, I thought that the pvp utility of the paladin class came from its ability to defend. But I guess that if you play a pala, and really feel the need to have all those great utility tools, maybe you should roll the classes that have them, since they are some much better than the paladin class.
But wait, aren't retri paladins actually good and feared in arenas? I'm confused, because reading all of this, it sure seems that it just sucks balls to be a paladin.

Or maybe it was just another retarded post by someone who really needs to l2p his class!

Bad players fear Ret Paladins in arenas, because they die to them. Good players dont fear them at all, because they understand that the paldin has zero way to apply continued pressure to any target other than plain damage after they trinket hammer of justice. They can just calmly walk around and continue healing other people, or mana burn or cyclone. There is nothing else we can do to them once our stun cooldown is used. We just chase and auto attack and crusader strike for damage that any heal specced class can heal through easily. Cast BoF every 25 seconds so it can get dispelled, purged or spellstolen, and cast BoP so it can get dispelled, purged or spellstolen. Press our cleanse buttons to watch 1 of 200 trash debuffs resist, or get cleansed and then be put right back on while the debuffs we want to get rid of sit there the full duration because cleanse NEEDS to target winters fucking chill 99% of the time.

Don't even think about telling me to learn to play. I was consistantly top 5 DPS when I was raiding (up to Shade of Akama) and a core member of the team we used to learn the fights, because I was consistant and dependable. I earned my S3 weapon during S3, on a real team, where all 3 of us were going for the rating, on the US: Vengeance battlegroup, one of the hardest battlegroups around (so hard a 2200 rated resto shaman with shoulders from another battlegroup that had transferred here at the end of S3 transferred off again about 3 weeks into S4, saying "fuck this BG, it's way too hard"). I play my paladin for real, it's not an alt, I don't have alts. My paladin is my main, period. I play hard, and I try to push the class as far as it will go. I KNOW the limitations of this class, because I run into them all too often.

I know that in arena this class provides nothing but damage, and a few utility abilities on long cooldowns that are nullified and removed very easily, leaving us with nothing but damage to offer our team. I just don't count cleanse, as it is simply not a reliable ability and cannot be counted on to do what you need it to do when you need it to do it. I've cleansed 5 times before trying to remove a polymorph off a team member before it came off. Thats 6 seconds of global cooldown, which is over half the duration of polymorph. I've cleansed the entire duration of a viper sting and it never came off due to trash pet poison debuffs and dispell resistance. I've spent over a thousand mana trying to get a shadow word pain off due to trash debuffs. Cleanse cannot be counted on anymore, and is often a waste of mana and global cooldown.

I know that this classes' damage is too low for it's other abilities to be as marginalized as they are, and I also know that Blizzard wont give us anything other than damage to fight with. And, as I mentioned before, if thats all we are getting that is worth mentioning (and it is, sacred shield seems extremely weak, and shield of righteousness is just another attack for us to us, ala; more damage), then the damage has to be high enough to compensate for not having anything to fall back on. Translated, it means that the damage has to be overwhelming and relentless.

[Liistrad]

Garrum: extreme damage it not paladins role in this game.

[Arrent]

At the moment, Paladins are matching pure DPS classes for sustained DPS, that is about 10-15% too much DPS expect to see it toned down somewhere between 15% and 20% over the next couple of months, and then slowly raised come WotL

If you're saying we're matching pure DPS classes on live, then you're wrong. We're tied with Shamans as the top hybrid. Every "pure" DPS class is way ahead of us.

If you're talking about Beta, I'd really like to see where you're getting these DPS reports from (lol @ youtube videos). I'd really like Blizzard to tone our damage based off of geared players DPS versus another geared player of a different class in a raid setting.

[Belisarius]

Hybrids are classes that have the choice of furlfilling more than one role between dps, healer and tank, thats the way I see it.

And while a ret pally cannot heal worth shit, they can respec and heal well.

If you think you are entitled to about 90% of a rogue's DPS, it'd only be fair for him to get some more stuff tipical of hybrids no? Maybe he could heal very badly as retri palas do.

Or just buff paladins so that they can spec to be not only main healer or main tanks, but also second tier dpsers. That is pretty fair considering most 'pure' dps only have 1 of their specs that can really push max raid dps at any given gear level.

Thats a pretty good idea, to have 3 guaranteed spots in a WotLK raid.

Seriously, do you do not understand the concept of class balance?
Do you really think the game would be better if one class can do everything pretty fucking well?

There must be some real misinformation in the pala forums that leads palas do believe that everyone has it better than them, and can pretty much win at everything forever for them to be this adamant about getting every role in the game.

Can we currently do that Liistrad? Have you even ever played a paladin? From the beginning to now constantly over 3-4 years? Seemingly not.. Do you realize what other classes have been given and that paladins really have stayed the same regardless over time?
When I come up against even a half decent frost mage or rogue in similar gear, at times there is simply nothing I can do to counter the ridiculous CC and damage output of those classes, as I have limited CC, can't heal and I do mediocre damage and I have no intercept abilities and can be totally kited by numerous classes. Is that fair Liistrad? Forget havin a whinge about your precious dps classes. The bottom line is do paladins deserve to be on a level playing field with these other classes and actually contribute something instead of providing a lame flash heal that can be interrupted by all other classes, and a buff that can be removed by all other classes?

That is correct, a paladin could respec totally to fullfil a healing spot (but would also have to have an awesome healing set - not easily obtainable) and fully forsake the other two trees, he would only be able to heal. If that helped a 5 man or a guild (PvP/PvE) I cannot see the problem with this at all. We are a hybrid, we can spec into 1 of 3 different trees to suit the occasion. Like a druid moreso, but also a shammy.

Why should a rogue get healing abilities when they have massive CC, so much so I've had rogues fully lock me up and I cannot move? Rogues have so much survivability now it aint funny, I mean cheat death, cloak of shadows, give me a break, rogues run up to any class and wtf pwn them with limited skill required these days, it's a total joke.

Im not getting your logic behind this whole, why should paladins be able to do 1 of 3 things? It just doesnt make sense to me. A pure dps class will have more dps and CC than a paladin will ever have. Im merely saying that with our buffing, we should come close, close enough, so that it isnt the current situation where we are barely invited and still scorned, do you agree paladins in general are left out of raids atm? This is the whole emphasis of my posts, we dont offer anything atm really. People look at actual dps done, not hypothetical utility, you seem to be of this mould, so you should understand that.

As Blizzard has stated, there would be at least 2 of each class in a raid, if there were more so be it, I dont see a problem with that tbh, as long as the raid gets going, and there are people to fill allocated spots in all the disciplines, thats what Blizzard is trying to do, offer more diversity than there currently is, if everyone thought like you, the game wouldnt progress.

Again I have no idea what your problem is with a class doing 1 of 3 choices well, Druids do it atm. Why cant paladins?

Mate if you cant play your hunter well, reroll paladin, cause theyll be able to do all 3 things at once in Wrath "eyeroll", take your own advice, reroll pally if ya dont like it. At the moment it aint fair paladins have to put up with numerous flaws in design and execution.

[Belisarius]

Garrum: extreme damage it not paladins role in this game.

thats your opinion noone elses.

[Merin]

thats your opinion noone elses.

Actually, that's been pretty much fact for four years.

Of course, you can hope and pray to god that they won't nerf your burst into the floorboards in beta, but I think it'd be a cooler waste of hope to wish for a flying Ferrari with laser headlights.

[Belisarius]

Actually, that's been pretty much fact for four years.

Of course, you can hope and pray to god that they won't nerf your burst into the floorboards in beta, but I think it'd be a cooler waste of hope to wish for a flying Ferrari with laser headlights.

Tbh Merin if paladins could do 80% of a pure class in whatever they choose, it'd be a HUGE up for us. Plus our buffs, but atm, from what i'm seeing, and what other classes are getting, if paladins don't literally do as much damage, or tank as well, or heal as well as their intended counterpart, pallies are dead, and a lot will leave to greener pastures, and leave the game to ignorant nubs like Liistrad, who give a damn about classes who don't even figure in WoW lore prominently ROFL, that's funny.

[b8279]

b8279 do you think it's right that Ret pallies are 1000 dps behind rogues/hunters/mages/locks in raids at tier 6 level? Do you think our measly buffs make up for that? If you know paladins like I do, the answer is No to all of those questions. Fair enough your argument. What im saying is that paladins along with their buffs are at your dps level. So a pally doing say 85-90% of your damage would be acceptable in my eyes. Else we have no use being there, as it stands now.

I never said that, 85% is acceptable even if our personal dps could be half that and still justify a raid slot.
Hell, my argument was based on us being right up in that percentage range.I did say rogues should do more dps than everyone, that includes locks,mages and hunters.

[mcstu]

I never said that, 85% is acceptable even if our personal dps could be half that and still justify a raid slot.
Hell, my argument was based on us being right up in that percentage range.I did say rogues should do more dps than everyone, that includes locks,mages and hunters.

Rogues and warlocks are normally top and tbh should be (depending on melee/caster-friendly fights) - however, there is no reason at all why rets should not be able to do as much dps as hunter/mages- if the pallys role in a raid is to do dps, then they need to do as much as hunters/mages - their raid utility is not strong enough to warrant a raid spot if their personal dps is weak. That is the way of things, and will not change.

[Txous]

I believe the problem is always the same as son as any hybrid class goes into PvP, non-hybrid class players start moaning about the druids, paladins or shammys can nuke and then heal themselves...
I've never heard so much crying when the paladins respec into holy .. or when they use tanking talents... most of time people tend to be happy about that (how many of your guilds have get used to do 25-man whith tankadin ?) But when a paly sais "hey can I try to raid just once in retri?" the obvious answer is "Paladins are not DPS"... and i believe that is qute unfair, i agree the ret "only" gives that +2% damage to party and keeps the 3 judgements up plus his/her dps... to buff up you can count on a holy or tank one...
I fear that paladins will always be rejected as dps and ,to be honest, it's completely unfair.

P,d: Like osmebody else said before me, i expect all those people who talk without knowing how the paladin works make one in any of the test servers just to try to nuke 1 target, heal at full and nuke another one ... wish you the best luck

[Liistrad]

Belisarius, I never said i was unhappy with my hunter, nor that I do not play it well, it has good specs and bad specs for each situation and I accept that I cannot pve and pvp successfully with the same spec (at least in a guild that cares about raid composition).

I don't think any of the people here believe that a retadin can heal even 50% worth of a holy paladins healing potential, hell I don't even think a retadin can heal more than 10 seconds before getting seriously OOM and useless, but nevertheless you have the option to spec so you can, and not every class can do that, or more exactly, only 4 classes can spec heal. And the same goes for tanking, and atm only 3 classes can do it out of 9. And while you do need extra sets of gear for each role, I don't really think it should be any different, and gear is getting much much more generalistic in WotLK. The focus here is that you have options, while many do not.

I am all for hybrids bringing raid contributions, and am perfectly comfortable with a retadin dealing about 80-85% of a 'pure' classes's dps, because I truly believe that your raid contribution would more than cover the 20-15% missing dps.

But i do have a problem with 85-100% of a 'pure' classes's dps, because that would end up allotting much more than 2 raid spots (on a 25man raid) for the paladin class: one spot as a dps, one spot as a mt/ot, and 1/2 spots as main healer (because there are 4 healing classes, each with 1 healing spec (correct me if I'm wrong) and a 25-man raid is designed to need more healers than that (this has been stated in blue posts). I won't speak for much for pvp because that is a field where I am not overly informed about paladins, but it does not take a bad player to fear paladins in arena, of that I'm pretty sure, and while you may not be overly represented, neither are shamans nor hunters (hunters were 4%, palas 3% and shamans 2% in a recent census).

In a raid that has 6 roles (main healers, raid healer, main tank, off tank, hardcore dps and buff/synergy dps, this is simply my opinion of raid roles, not something written in stone) enabling one class to fill 4 of those (main healer, main tank, off tank and buff/synergy dps) is something I deem acceptable for a hybrid, but if they can also fill 'hardcore dps' with 85-100% dps, while keeping the buff/synergy dps role in the same spec (I think that specs other than retadin have better buffs, but still retadin has at least the base buffs) is just over-representation of a class in a raid, since 'pure' classes can only do either hardcore dps or buff/synergy dps.
I am supposing paladins are not good raid healers, and even if it turns out that they cannot maintank either, there is still 3 possible roles out of 6.

Also, any shortcomings that retadins have in pvp would have be dealt with separately of max dps, through new pvp tools (hunters are planed to receive an awesome set of BASE pvp tools in beta in the form of masters call/deterrance/new disengage/camouflage, and thats mostly to address pvp issues) as giving one class ridiculously high pvp dps would only lead to setups that focus on setting up the kill for the pala (and that, like the raid roles argument, would allow a paladin to fulfill an unbalanced set of roles in pvp through different specs of the same class).

I'm not anti-retadin, or anti hybrid for that matter, I'm just pro-balance and want to see a balanced game in which class balance (instead of spec balance) is decent enough.

[mcstu]

when it comes down to it, if you cannot compete on raw dps you just dont get a raid spot. You can argue your utility as much as you want but when it comes down it, if your dps then u need increase your raids dps not reduce it. So if a ret's personal dps and his raid 'invisible' dps does not equal or beat that of bringing a rogue in his place into the raid then rets will not be required.

No lvl80 raids have been tested yet so we do not know how it will pan out- but rets will need all they can get their hands on to a) change peoples attitudes to them and b) compete with shamans in terms of bring obvious contributions to others.

[cheerio]

Ret paladins sacrifice their ability to heal or tank well for dps and it should be that in exchange for those sacrifices we be able to do decent damage.Those who say that we can just change spec when we need too...that's a great idea next time im fighting a horde I'll just type /brb and fly to IF and respec to holy when I need a good heal.