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  1. #21

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidseeker
    I think you are mistaken on DS not procing SoV. When I was Ret there was many times that I would switch targets and the new mob would already have stacks on him/her/it and the only damage they had taken was from DS.

    CS SHOULD proc all seals, that is the intended way the abilities work, and if it does not now then it is a bug and will be changed. The class devs have stated that all weapon based abilities should proc seals.



    SoV is the highest DPS seal a Paladin can have up. Changing seals is silly as you cannot judge the seal for 50% damage if you are hoping for SoC procs. And you GCD will be PACKED so that wasting two of them to switch back and forth between seals is going to be a loss to your DPS.
    SoV has no scalability, it does not get better with Haste, martyr does, Martyr will outperform SoV in PvE, and SoComm will be a better choice for Burst in PvP. (EDIT: Yes, I realize it scales in Damage with Attack Power and Spell Damage, however, expect to see 15% or more reduction in total damage. Not to mention nerfs to coefficients and overall damage in the beta over the next many months.)

    SoV however, might be the best solo content and 5-man seal.

    EDIT : Weaving it into your DPS rotation however, could work, giving some very interesting DPS numbers (Judging Blood with a 5 Stack of Vengeance, how would that work?)

    EDIT 2/3 : Taking Haste into the mix, and assuming (I hate that word, but it's all we can do for now at 80th) 30% average haste (Windfury, Personal Haste, Heroism/Bloodlust) over a boss fight (I am personally thinking it'll be more than 30% but, giving it a low estimate.)

    3.6 Weapon speed becomes 2.52 which means 23.8 swings, also taking into account there, that raid buffed, your crit will be somewhere in the late 30'ies early 40'ies easilly suddenly the flaw in Vengeance comes up. (adding the 16 extra hits that CS and DS will give you to total.)

    Just in case though, I'll run numbers again, with raid numbers.

    Assuming Raid Buffing, and using the same *low* Martyr/Blood Numbers.

    39.8 - 35% Crit (Again using very low crit numbers) 15 crits

    24.8 x 400 = 9920
    15 x 800 = 12000

    7 Judgements (Not sure why you only think you'll have a 25% crit chance on judgements, PvE spec, I'd think somehting near 60% chance to crit, but using your super low estimates again.)

    5 x 1350 = 6750
    2 x 3040 = 6080

    Total: 34750

    This is using very low end-raid estimates, expect to see much higher average haste, and higher crit ratings, also more damage from Martyr, since weapon damage is what affects blood, and having a better buffed weapon and a better weapon will raise not only judgements but also Martyr auto-attacks.

    Also, it takes FIVE stacks to max up Seal of Vengeance, not 3.

    That aside, they will most likely nerf Vengeance, if it performs too well, knowing Blizzard, I *do* however, see the possibility of Vengeance Weaving as a DPS cycle, if they do not.

    EDIT 4: Raid buffed Numbers, currently in TBC for most boss fights (And no, I usually don't have an Enhancement Shaman =/)

    My stats are (TBC):
    2948 AP (with imp. BoM)
    38.57% crit
    3.3 speed weapon (3.6 normal, but 3.3 from haste)
    1068-1325 weapon damage (without vengeance)

    Using those stats, in WotL and taking into account 5% more strength 2% haste and Imp BoM being 50% more AP, STILL without Enhancement Shaman
    3200+ AP
    38.57% Crit
    3.29 Speed Weapon
    1200-1450 weapon damage (without vengeance, guesstimate from the AP increase)
    1200 Spellpower

    Now, add 10% AP from Unleashed Rage, 20% Haste from WF totem, and you're starting to look at realistic Raid Buffed Numbers to check a Martyr/Command/SoR DPS cycle vs Vengeance/Corruption

    ANOTHER EDIT: It now *also* seems that Seals proc off CS and DS, meaning, if that stays the case, an extra 16 procs per minute of SoR/SoBlood/Martyr further boosting Martyr's sovereignity as the main DPS seal for PvE. Now it's about figuring out if the GCD's used to keep up a 5-stack of SoV is worth the loss of possible Martyr procs! (Personally, I think SoV will be worth it, just gotta figure out how the best cycle works.)

  2. #22

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Updated the guesstimate number calculations for Martyr to account for the extra 16 Martyr Procs per minute.

  3. #23

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    A few quick items:

    * I know it takes 5 stacks, but as more than the reg swing applies a stack you will go from 1 to 5 in 3 swings and 2 special moves - so two are basically free.

    * I was just using 30% as that is what was posted as a number. Crits could very well be higher, and you can go ahead and rerun the numbers with 100% crit if you want to make it look how you want.


    We were looking at the damage of the Seals themselves, and by themselves in SoV wins. There are no end game raids right now, and there for any guessing about what would be best in raids is just that a guess.

    While you are right that haste comes into play, Seal of Blood/Martyr should just NOT be used at all as the amount of damage that the paladin would take (right now) is just more than wise/worth it. While you are right that your DPS may be higher, so would the DPS you are doing to yourself and requiring the healers to have to deal with.

    SoV and SoC both get around that problem and allow you to do more than just smack the mob and hurt yourself. Which if you are a Ret in a raid is NOT the only thing you should be doing anymore. Ret will have out of control crit, and should be tossing heals in between swings on the mobs to help take advantage of Sheath of Light. And all the numbers we are talking about right now will change with the nerf to Paladin DPS that IS coming as soon as the mechanics of the class are solid in the Devs' eyes.


    tl, dr version: SoB is dead and useless. There is no point to it. SoV wins in all ways until you have a stupid strong weapon then SoC will take the lead. SoV will still be used by all great Ret Raiders to allow them to not only post good DPS, but take full advantage of all the abilities of Paladin and toss heals/hands/etc.


    (the above is my opinion as of 08/21/08 and subject to change with beta changes)

  4. #24

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidseeker
    A few quick items:

    * I know it takes 5 stacks, but as more than the reg swing applies a stack you will go from 1 to 5 in 3 swings and 2 special moves - so two are basically free.

    * I was just using 30% as that is what was posted as a number. Crits could very well be higher, and you can go ahead and rerun the numbers with 100% crit if you want to make it look how you want.


    We were looking at the damage of the Seals themselves, and by themselves in SoV wins. There are no end game raids right now, and there for any guessing about what would be best in raids is just that a guess.

    While you are right that haste comes into play, Seal of Blood/Martyr should just NOT be used at all as the amount of damage that the paladin would take (right now) is just more than wise/worth it. While you are right that your DPS may be higher, so would the DPS you are doing to yourself and requiring the healers to have to deal with.

    SoV and SoC both get around that problem and allow you to do more than just smack the mob and hurt yourself. Which if you are a Ret in a raid is NOT the only thing you should be doing anymore. Ret will have out of control crit, and should be tossing heals in between swings on the mobs to help take advantage of Sheath of Light. And all the numbers we are talking about right now will change with the nerf to Paladin DPS that IS coming as soon as the mechanics of the class are solid in the Devs' eyes.


    tl, dr version: SoB is dead and useless. There is no point to it. SoV wins in all ways until you have a stupid strong weapon then SoC will take the lead. SoV will still be used by all great Ret Raiders to allow them to not only post good DPS, but take full advantage of all the abilities of Paladin and toss heals/hands/etc.


    (the above is my opinion as of 08/21/08 and subject to change with beta changes)
    While your opinion is yours, it's also wrong, but, meh, who cares, right? It's after all your opinion.

    Between JotW, and DS, SoBlood/Martyr will be the best seal bar none to use in a raid setting, however Seal weaving may be viable for DPS.

    But! like I said, as things are right now, SoV is a better solo seal, and 5-man seal (Unless you get into a 5-man group with an Arms Warrior, Feral Druid, Enhancement Shaman, Ret Paladin and BM Hunter/Surv Hunter, while being against all odds raid-buffed.) In which case, SoB will most likely outperform SoV for DPS and Total Damage (since mobs will not last 18 Seconds, meaning no full ticks from SoV.

    It's not about making it look like I want, it's about being realistic, and thinking with what will matter for this seal, End-game raiding.

    And SoB/Martyr *will* outperform SoC, SoR and SoV in the End-game, simple as that.

    Right now, the amount of damage the Paladin would take, would be returned by a HoT + DS, something most healers already spare a Paladin in 90% of the case, if they have any skill in Raiding.

    And, simply put, you bring a Ret Paladin to offer support, and to DPS, and if he is not DPS'ing to his maximum potential, he is a liability.

  5. #25

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    OK, so I have a migraine, someone double check the math for me please. But that said, Samiel, let's go ahead and use the numbers you provided and run them:

    Your numbers:

    3200+ AP
    38.57% Crit
    3.29 Speed Weapon
    1200-1450 weapon damage (1325 middle)
    1200 Spellpower


    Damage for 5 min:
    Per swing damage: 1325 (avg)
    Total attacks over 5 min (all hits, no loss of swings): 300 / 3.29 = 91.
    Damage over 5 min, white: 91 x 1325 = 120,575
    Crit dmg over 5 min, white: 120,757 x (39 /100) = 47,024
    Total damage over 5 min, white: 167, 599

    SoB:
    Per swing damage: 464
    Damage over 5 min, SoB: 91 x (1325 x 0.35) = 42,201
    Crit dmg over 5 min, SoB: 42,201 x (39 /100) = 16,458
    Total damage over 5 min, SoB: 58,659
    Total damage returned over 5min, SoB: 5,865

    J-SoB:
    Total judgments, 5 min: 300 / 8 = 37
    Judgement Damage: [0.45x1325 + 0.36x3200 + 0.58x1200] = 2444
    Damage over 5 min, J-SoB:: (2444 x 37) = 90,428
    Crit dmg over 5 min, J-SoB: 90,428 x (39/100) = 35,267
    Total dmg over 5 min, J-Sob: 125,695
    Total dmg returned over 5 min. J-Sob: 41,479


    Complete damage done 5 min: 184,354
    Complete damage taken 5 min: 47,344
    Complete Damage done 5 min, with white damage: 351,953


    SoV:
    DoT Damage, one stack: [(.034x1200 + .07x3200) x 6] = 1589
    DoT Damage, five stacks: 1589 x 5 = 7945
    DoT Damage, per tick (3 sec): 1324
    Damage over 5 min, SoV: (300 / 3 – 5) x 1324 = 125,780 (it will take ~5 seconds to get to 5 stacks)

    J-SoV:
    Total judgments, 5 min: 300 / 8 = 37
    Judgement Damage: [1 + 0.58x1200 + 0.36x3200] = 1849
    Judgement Damage, full stack: 1849 x 1.5 = 2774
    Damage over 5 min, J-SoB:: (2774 x 37) = 102,638
    Crit dmg over 5 min, J-SoB: 102,638 x (39/100) = 40,029
    Total dmg over 5 min, J-Sob: 142,667

    Complete Damage done 5 min: 268,447
    Complete Damage taken 5 min: 0
    Complete Damage done 5 min with White damage: 436,046



    So unless I screwed up the math there, which is possible as I do have a massive headache, please explain to me how doing doing 84,093 less damage but taking 47,344 damage is the better choice. But if I have not screwed up the math then my opinion, lacking any of the the childish sarcasm of your reply, still seems to be right.


    As I have already stated elsewhere, once a Paladin has a weapon that will change these numbers it might make sense to use a different Seal, but the weapon in the numbers you provided does not hold up (math being correct).


    Also there is the fact that SoV damage happens regardless of the Paladin hitting the mob. A Ret Paladin can put 5 stacks on the mob, and as long as he/she gets one refresh hit and Judges every time it is up that same Paladin can be doing other things, like casting heals, hands, and blessings, etc. WITHOUT putting a burden on any of the other healers. The SoV Paladin will lose some white damage to be sure, but if the SoB Paladin had to stop to do the same things he/she would lose even more total damage.

    To me, again without the sarcasm, that is a better reason to bring a Ret Paladin to the raid: he/she is not just a swinging idiot sucking down healer mana, but actually doing damage and helping heal.


    If I have FUBR'ed the math then my above points are obviously null and void.


    EDIT: looking at my numbers again, it would seem I forgot to add any white damage to the totals for SoV. So if you did nothing but smack the mob the same with both Seals final numbers would be:

    SoB:
    Complete damage done 5 min: 351,953
    Complete damage taken 5 min: 47,344


    Sov:
    Complete Damage done 5 min: 436,046
    Complete Damage taken 5 min: 0


    EDIT 2: found more mistakes, fixed the numbers.

  6. #26

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Your math is correct, but the thing is, Blizz has already stated that currently the ret paladin is going to get nerfed, and more than likely it's going to be a nerf to judgment and/or it's coefficient. Taking that into consideration, with SoB, you take damage, thus you receive healing, which in turn gives you mana back. With the coming nerf to judgment or it's damage coefficient, we don't know for sure if JotW will keep us topped off with mana with the lowered damage and mana might again become a slight issue without the regenerative powers of Spiritual Attunement. So right now, yes, SoV/SoCor IS the better seal, BUT we don't know yet if that will stay IF JoV/JoCor loses enough damage to make us start net-losing on mana with a full Judge/CS/DS rotation.

  7. #27

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    This is not directed at you Rushuna, but have seen the same excuse/point made so I need to reply: If you are Retribution in a raid, and you are a burden to the healers, expect to be replaced very shortly. In fact I am going to make a new topic on this point to explain why.

    EDIT: And you are right that Paladins are going to be adjusted, all classes are in fact as just about everyone is doing more damage than intended. Mages are 2x, Paladins and DKs are even more so I am sure. But until we see exactly what the change, a "nerf" will most likely affect the abilities equally and the new numbers would end up almost the same (ratio wise).

    I will run new number when they get around to actually tuning the damage output of Paladins in Beta and if SoV is no longer king will say so then. Right now, it is and SoB is a waste (in my eyes). SoC has it's uses for burst, and can be better weaved in, but I would rather use those GCDs for other things - like healing and other abilities.

  8. #28

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidseeker
    This is not directed at you Rushuna, but have seen the same excuse/point made so I need to reply: If you are Retribution in a raid, and you are a burden to the healers, expect to be replaced very shortly. In fact I am going to make a new topic on this point to explain why.

    u r an idiot...

    Statistically speaking, you are an average player. Learn to live with it.

  9. #29

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Quote Originally Posted by mcstu
    u r an idiot...
    The phrase takes one to know one actually made me consider you might be right. But then I double checked the source.

    Thanks for stopping by though. =)

  10. #30

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Your per swing damage is too low. I do more than that live raiding, as ret secondary specc'd in Bt gear. With 185+ dps weapons and the new raid wide buffing system rerun your math with 4-5k Ap and a swing damage of 2500 (low estimate), high estimate 6k ap 3500 swing damage. Interesting to see where this will head, if sheath of light is insanely overpowered enough to make the various seals equal, or even push some into overpowered land.

  11. #31

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Will rerun the number for sure now that things are 80 and more gear is coming out. But for raid buffs the devs are still deciding what they want to stack, and what they do not want to stack, so I would rather not theory craft that just yet.

    There will be a point that SoV will put out more damage than SoV for sure, as one scales with the weapon, while the other only SP & AP. But is not just the DPS of the seal but what the Paladin losses running that seal. With SoV you gain the ability to use all of your GCDs even if it resets the swing timer as swings are not as critical. With SoB the Paladin cannot use anything that would reset/delay the swing timer without it directly affecting the DPS for that short time.

    Time & tuning will tell for sure.

  12. #32

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Im not used to all this mitigation talk and stuff, im new to the concept of combat fighting since ive been a healer for 3 years, i just use Seal of the Crusader seeing the fact that it hits high AND increases your AP by like 400 or so. plz comment, casue i could use some help

  13. #33

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    That seal no longer exists in Wrath of the Lich King.

    There are 3 damage seals now, and by that I mean the seal itself will cause damage to happen.

    Seal of Blood (Horde) / Seal of the Martyr (Alliance)
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=31892

    "All melee attacks deal [0.35 * mw] to [0.35 * MW] additional Holy damage, but the Paladin loses health equal to 10% of the total damage inflicted. Lasts 2 min.

    Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing [0.45 * mw + 0.36 * AP + 0.58 * SPH] to [0.45 * MW + 0.36 * AP + 0.58 * SPH] Holy damage at the cost of health equal to 33% of the damage caused."


    Seal of Command (11 Points in Ret)
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=20375

    Gives the Paladin a chance to deal [0.7 * mw] to [0.7 * MW] additional Holy damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 2 min.

    Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing [0.30 * mw + 0.36 * AP + 0.58 * SPH] to [0.30 * MW + 0.36 * AP + 0.58 * SPH] Holy damage, [0.60 * mw + 0.72 * AP + 1.16 * SPH] to [0.60 * MW + 0.72 * AP + 1.16 * SPH] if the target is stunned or incapacitated.


    Seal of Vengeance (Alliance) / Seal of Corruption (Horde)
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=31801

    Fills the Paladin with holy power, causing attacks to apply Holy Vengeance, which deals [(0.034 * SPH + 0.07 * AP) * 6] additional Holy damage over 15 sec. Holy Vengeance can stack up to 5 times. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 2 min.

    Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [1 + 0.58 * SPH + 0.36 * AP] Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Holy Vengeance on the target.



    Seal of Blood does damage every time you hit with your weapon, but does 10% of that damage to you. In TBC this is how Horde Ret Paladins do their DPS in raids as it allows them the most DPS and the damage done allows them to get some mana back when they get healed.

    Seal of Command has a PPM of 7. This means that it will go off 7 times a minute regardless of your weapon. So the goal is to have the slowest, hardest hitting weapon possible to take advantage of the extra damage. It also does double damage on stunned mobs when you judge it - and this is causing all the "NerF ReT - OP ClAss iS oP" over Paladins in the beta and will need to be looked at.

    Seal of Vengeance is a Holy Damage over Time ability. Currently in TBC it 'has a chance' to put a DoT debuff on mobs, but in Wrath any successful hit will put the DoT on a mob. This includes Divine Storm - you can put DoTs on up to four mobs. They just changed the DoT duration from 18 to 15 seconds, but it refreshes with any hit during that time. The DoT does damage every 3 seconds.


    Judgement has been replaced with 3 versions of the spell - basically when you use the spell it does damage and puts a debuff on the mob.Judgement of Wisdom will put the Wisdom debuff on the mob, does not matter what seal you are using at the time. Judgement does not use up the seal anymore.

    All Seals are 2 minutes now, and the debuffs on the mobs do not refresh (except for Seal of Vengeance).


    Basically the old way of doing damage is no longer used at all. You activate a Seal, which stays on you for 2 minutes, and it can be judged every 8 seconds. SoB is good for short fights where you can afford to take a little bit of extra damage. Seal of Command is good for PVP and short fights when you know you can use its double damage Judgement. Seal of Vengeance is the DPS king for long fights and allows the Paladin to do other things while keeping the DoT up.


    You get a feel for it really quickly, and it plays so much better than Paladins do right now. It just makes sense and works right. Don't worry too much about learning how to play Ret in TBC - it is going to change very soon.

  14. #34

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidseeker
    How many people are actually IN the beta here? Because my experience with Seal of Command was a waste of time. It is only good for its double damage on judgement, and only if you are attacking one mob at a time.

    When I was running Ret from 70 to 75 I used Seal of Vengeance almost exclusively. Some reasons:

    1) Stacks on every hit/swing, even from special abilities.

    2) Damage from the DoT increased from live, ticking over 800 in quest greens.

    3) Able to apply to debuf to multiple mobs, using Divine Storm & tab targeting.

    4) Judgement damage highest in game for a full stack of DoTs, except for SoC Judgment on Stunned mobs.


    Here are the numbers that were posted by Blizz EU:
    - Seal of Blood now increases Judgement damage by 45% of weapon damage.
    - Seal of Command now increases Judgement damage by 30% of weapon damage, 60% on stunned targets.
    - Seal of Righteousness deals damage based on weapons speed plus an amount based on attack power and spell power,increases Judgement damage by 25%.
    - Seal of Vengeance damage over time effect duration increased to 18 seconds and now applies its effect on every swing, causes damage based on attack power and spell power, and increases Judgement damage by 10% per stack of the damage over time effect.


    As you can see, at 3 stacks it is as good as SoR and SoC, and at 5 stacks it is better than all others - minus stunned targets.

    Aside from the Judgement damage alone, there is is the fact that every 3 seconds the DoT ticks for extra damage. In a long fight there is no way any other seal will keep up with the damage of SoV; even more true when fighting more than one mob.

    The only time I could see another seal even getting close to SoV is if you have a just ridiculous strong weapon equipped - but have not done the math to figure out how strong it would need to be. And if solo you would most likely kill yourself using it, or have massive DPS drops while you stop to heal yourself.
    Stack seal of vengance on boss 5 stacs ... use seal of martyr and when dot is about to expire just refresh seal of vengance... ftw

  15. #35

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    I guess judgement of vengeance does it the dot stacks?

  16. #36

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidseeker
    I think you are mistaken on DS not procing SoV. When I was Ret there was many times that I would switch targets and the new mob would already have stacks on him/her/it and the only damage they had taken was from DS.

    CS SHOULD proc all seals, that is the intended way the abilities work, and if it does not now then it is a bug and will be changed. The class devs have stated that all weapon based abilities should proc seals.



    SoV is the highest DPS seal a Paladin can have up. Changing seals is silly as you cannot judge the seal for 50% damage if you are hoping for SoC procs. And you GCD will be PACKED so that wasting two of them to switch back and forth between seals is going to be a loss to your DPS.
    On live SC procs Seal of wisdom , light and Justice.

  17. #37

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Quote Originally Posted by Samiel
    While your opinion is yours, it's also wrong, but, meh, who cares, right? It's after all your opinion.

    Between JotW, and DS, SoBlood/Martyr will be the best seal bar none to use in a raid setting, however Seal weaving may be viable for DPS.

    But! like I said, as things are right now, SoV is a better solo seal, and 5-man seal (Unless you get into a 5-man group with an Arms Warrior, Feral Druid, Enhancement Shaman, Ret Paladin and BM Hunter/Surv Hunter, while being against all odds raid-buffed.) In which case, SoB will most likely outperform SoV for DPS and Total Damage (since mobs will not last 18 Seconds, meaning no full ticks from SoV.

    It's not about making it look like I want, it's about being realistic, and thinking with what will matter for this seal, End-game raiding.

    And SoB/Martyr *will* outperform SoC, SoR and SoV in the End-game, simple as that.

    Right now, the amount of damage the Paladin would take, would be returned by a HoT + DS, something most healers already spare a Paladin in 90% of the case, if they have any skill in Raiding.

    And, simply put, you bring a Ret Paladin to offer support, and to DPS, and if he is not DPS'ing to his maximum potential, he is a liability.
    I agree on this as well but would point out that not just seal weaving will be viable but it will be must for good dps rotation. If it stays like this.

  18. #38

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Quote Originally Posted by StormScion
    Stack seal of vengance on boss 5 stacs ... use seal of martyr and when dot is about to expire just refresh seal of vengance... ftw
    You are missing out on the Judgements by doing that, which are greater with these stats than SoB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karpalo
    I guess judgement of vengeance does it the dot stacks?
    What? Sorry I am not clear on your question.

  19. #39

    Re: What is the best seal for a paladin(ret)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidseeker
    OK, so I have a migraine, someone double check the math for me please. But that said, Samiel, let's go ahead and use the numbers you provided and run them:

    Your numbers:

    3200+ AP
    38.57% Crit
    3.29 Speed Weapon
    1200-1450 weapon damage (1325 middle)
    1200 Spellpower


    Damage for 5 min:
    Per swing damage: 1325 (avg)
    Total attacks over 5 min (all hits, no loss of swings): 300 / 3.29 = 91.
    Damage over 5 min, white: 91 x 1325 = 120,575
    Crit dmg over 5 min, white: 120,757 x (39 /100) = 47,024
    Total damage over 5 min, white: 167, 599

    SoB:
    Per swing damage: 464
    Damage over 5 min, SoB: 91 x (1325 x 0.35) = 42,201
    Crit dmg over 5 min, SoB: 42,201 x (39 /100) = 16,458
    Total damage over 5 min, SoB: 58,659
    Total damage returned over 5min, SoB: 5,865

    J-SoB:
    Total judgments, 5 min: 300 / 8 = 37
    Judgement Damage: [0.45x1325 + 0.36x3200 + 0.58x1200] = 2444
    Damage over 5 min, J-SoB:: (2444 x 37) = 90,428
    Crit dmg over 5 min, J-SoB: 90,428 x (39/100) = 35,267
    Total dmg over 5 min, J-Sob: 125,695
    Total dmg returned over 5 min. J-Sob: 41,479


    Complete damage done 5 min: 184,354
    Complete damage taken 5 min: 47,344
    Complete Damage done 5 min, with white damage: 351,953


    SoV:
    DoT Damage, one stack: [(.034x1200 + .07x3200) x 6] = 1589
    DoT Damage, five stacks: 1589 x 5 = 7945
    DoT Damage, per tick (3 sec): 1324
    Damage over 5 min, SoV: (300 / 3 – 5) x 1324 = 125,780 (it will take ~5 seconds to get to 5 stacks)

    J-SoV:
    Total judgments, 5 min: 300 / 8 = 37
    Judgement Damage: [1 + 0.58x1200 + 0.36x3200] = 1849
    Judgement Damage, full stack: 1849 x 1.5 = 2774
    Damage over 5 min, J-SoB:: (2774 x 37) = 102,638
    Crit dmg over 5 min, J-SoB: 102,638 x (39/100) = 40,029
    Total dmg over 5 min, J-Sob: 142,667

    Complete Damage done 5 min: 268,447
    Complete Damage taken 5 min: 0
    Complete Damage done 5 min with White damage: 436,046



    So unless I screwed up the math there, which is possible as I do have a massive headache, please explain to me how doing doing 84,093 less damage but taking 47,344 damage is the better choice. But if I have not screwed up the math then my opinion, lacking any of the the childish sarcasm of your reply, still seems to be right.


    As I have already stated elsewhere, once a Paladin has a weapon that will change these numbers it might make sense to use a different Seal, but the weapon in the numbers you provided does not hold up (math being correct).


    Also there is the fact that SoV damage happens regardless of the Paladin hitting the mob. A Ret Paladin can put 5 stacks on the mob, and as long as he/she gets one refresh hit and Judges every time it is up that same Paladin can be doing other things, like casting heals, hands, and blessings, etc. WITHOUT putting a burden on any of the other healers. The SoV Paladin will lose some white damage to be sure, but if the SoB Paladin had to stop to do the same things he/she would lose even more total damage.

    To me, again without the sarcasm, that is a better reason to bring a Ret Paladin to the raid: he/she is not just a swinging idiot sucking down healer mana, but actually doing damage and helping heal.


    If I have FUBR'ed the math then my above points are obviously null and void.


    EDIT: looking at my numbers again, it would seem I forgot to add any white damage to the totals for SoV. So if you did nothing but smack the mob the same with both Seals final numbers would be:

    SoB:
    Complete damage done 5 min: 351,953
    Complete damage taken 5 min: 47,344


    Sov:
    Complete Damage done 5 min: 436,046
    Complete Damage taken 5 min: 0


    EDIT 2: found more mistakes, fixed the numbers.
    I'm not going to do numbers, since we could do numbers forever, however, here it is.

    Your numbers are wrong, because, you take no talents into calculation, you take no raid haste into calculation, also, SoV stack is a 15 sec duration, and will take more than 5 seconds to get up, since you can only do a maximum of 4 attacks in a 5 second period (meaning at the very least with a 2.52 swingspeed 7,56 seconds.)

    Also, at level 80, weapon damage will be a great deal higher, as weapon DPS will be higher, to the point where average damage could very easilly be, fully raidbuffed in the 1800-2000 area at which point SoB/martyr destroys SoV, when coupled with haste, and SoComm will also.

    However, Seal Twisting will become the way to go, adding a 5-stack of Vengeance, and swiching to Blood and switching back to Vengeance 10 seconds later, will most likely be what you see the highest DPS Pallies doing.

    In your numbers, you also forgot to count the CS/DS procs of Martyr/Blood, which if my eyes are not too wonky puts Martyr a good deal closer to SoV, even with those low numbers.

    There are of course other factors in this, looking at the numbers for Judgement of Blood and Judgement of Wisdom for example, we can see they have the same spell damage co-efficients, however, what we can't see is what the base damage is on Judgement, meaning 35% of weapon damage, could very well, in the end-game be higher than the 50% to Judgements base damage. Also, things like Talents, Sharpening Stones and the like, basically, what it comes down to is this, in a raid enviroment, SoV *will* be outperformed by SoB for DPS and total damage done, HOWEVER SoV weaved in with SoB will outperform both by themselves, as things stand now, and thus be superior to either.


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