Seal of the Martyr Question?

[bfrost7]

Now that alliance pallys get access to this new seal is it necessary to get Seal of Command? B/C this is basically seal of blood for alliance and seal of blood did more dps than SoC.

[Spamor]

well you will probably need it for some boss fights think of prince or curator monster one shoting yourself

[Deleted]

it's alliance version of seal of blood.

It's the best pve dps seal and, in fact, in our new talent tree we have quite some haste rating buffs, which scales with SoM but not with SoComm.

To have martyr you don't need command specced.

[Dragonjin01]

It all depends on how you itemize your gear. With the introduction of class glyphs. Before Seal of Blood did more dps was because it applied its effect every hit. With SoC it was a chance to proc. So not all our hits did extra SoC damage, not to mention SoB allowed for ret pallies to take damage and get healed to get mana back. But in the sense of Wotlk with Judgement of the Wise and Divine Storm. I don't think it is necessary to take damage to get mana back from getting healed.

Plus I see a bit of a drawback to SoB because you take 10% damage from each SoB application and 33% damage from the judgement. With the way we are itemize I have no doubt we will take alot of damage from SoB. But with Divine Storm might not be as bad. I can't say much since I haven't been able to get my hands on a Beta Key yet. Only speculating on what I see so far.

I'm not even sure if Judgement of the Wise or Divine Storm will actually target the Pally as one of the targets to get mana or health back. If anyone has any info about that I would gladly appreciate it.

[Veliane]

Now that alliance pallys get access to this new seal is it necessary to get Seal of Command? B/C this is basically seal of blood for alliance and seal of blood did more dps than SoC.

Seal of Command will be the choice againts Heavy armor bosses, given it ignores armor and with the talent Sheath of Light, it won't do crap damage anymore.
SoComm is also more focused as a PvP seal all around.

Martyr can generate better fast paced/controlled damage, but we have yet to see the itemization at Level 80.

This will also let paladins sort of 'customize' their playstyle wheter they want to go big on Ap/Haste for Martyr builds or Slow and Bursty for Command.

[Karpalo]

SoC is more pvp orientated now. I think you will be switching between seal of vengeance/corruption and seal of martyr/blood as a raiding ret paladin.

[Shuror]

SoR and SoV are significantly overtuned, especially in combo with Sheath of Light. Expect seeing changes to them.

Edit: Alright, so what I meant with this is: Seal of Righteousness is the best DPS seal right now, with SoV/SoCorr coming as a close second. I'm not sure of the exact DPS ratio between these two though, it's possible that SoV beats SoR.

However, one thing is for sure: SoB/SoM/SoCom are royally owned in all PvE DPS situations by the "caster" seals. Well, they were caster seals in TBC at least, I'm talking about spelldamage scaling.

[Cosno]

you will still want to talent seal of command.

with the increase in damage paladins are doing im almost killing myself quite a few times in instances and i've pretty much given up on ever using it. leveling up command is better because you can stun mobs and most mobs can be killed in CS->DS>judge. we'll still have to see in raids

[Biral]

SoR and SoV are significantly overtuned, especially in combo with Sheath of Light. Expect seeing changes to them.

Edit: Alright, so what I meant with this is: Seal of Righteousness is the best DPS seal right now, with SoV/SoCorr coming as a close second. I'm not sure of the exact DPS ratio between these two though, it's possible that SoV beats SoR.

However, one thing is for sure: SoB/SoM/SoCom are royally owned in all PvE DPS situations by the "caster" seals. Well, they were caster seals in TBC at least, I'm talking about spelldamage scaling.

The only problem with the 'caster' seals is that they can't crit. So no matter how much damage they do (which, btw, is still less than SoB/SoM and SoC.

SoR: Grants each melee attack [ 5% of MWS * AP + 10% of MWS * Healing ] additional Holy damage
SoV/SoCorr: Causes attacks to apply Blood Corruption, which deal [ 42% of AP + 20% of Spell Power ] additional Holy damage over 18 sec. Blood Corruption can stack up to 5 times.
SoComm: Gives a chance to deal [ 70% of mw ] to [ 70% of MW ] additional Holy damage.
SoB/SoM: All melee attacks deal [ 35% of mw ] to [ 35% of MW ] additional Holy damage, but the Paladin loses health equal to 10% of the total damage inflicted.

So, here's the thing: The better the weapon you have, the better SoComm and SoB/SoM. If you have a craptastic weapon, sure you're going to see better results from SoR and SoV/SoCorr, because they don't factor the weapon damage into their effects, merely their speed (for SoR only) or your character's AP/SpellPower.

So, no, SoR and SoV/SoCor are only and will only be viable DPS seals if and only if you have a horribad weapon.

[StormScion]

SoC is more pvp orientated now. I think you will be switching between seal of vengeance/corruption and seal of martyr/blood as a raiding ret paladin.

It was allways pvp seal ... retribution was designed since 1.9 patch to be basicly pvp tree with seal of command as pvp seal. Pre tbc palas were not pve dps.

[b8279]

well you will probably need it for some boss fights think of prince or curator monster one shoting yourself

This and you don't want to grind or pvp with blood. Btw I highly doubt Sov/Sor will make it live like they are now. Can't see where they would increase seal duration to two minutes and not have a judgement consume it,just so that ret paladins can switch seals every 10-15 seconds.

[Sithlord87m]

new glyph gives SoC 20% more proc, kk thx bye

[meliancill]

SoC is still the main pvp seal for all paladins. in pvp it gives masive burst and you dont want to take damage from your seals in pvp lol that only helps the people trying to kill you

[Shuror]

So, no, SoR and SoV/SoCor are only and will only be viable DPS seals if and only if you have a horribad weapon.

No. SoR/SoV scale far, far better with attack power than SoB/SoC, and that is amplified by Sheath of Light.

All right, let's say we have a paladin with a great weapon and craptastic attack power. 150 base weapon DPS and 1500 attack power, and with ShoL 1500*0.3 = 450 spell damage. The total weapon DPS is 150+1500/14 = 257. SoB would do 0.35*257 = 90 DPS.

And what would SoR do? 5% AP + 10% spell damage is 0.05*1500+0.10*450 = 120 DPS.

You would need 33% crit to make SoB outdamage SoR. But wait, there is a talent which makes SoR do 15% more damage, and it's perfectly available for ret paladins. That would make you need 53% crit for SoR to outscale SoB.

So SoR deals more damage with a weapon stronger than Apolyon and attack power which you have in blue dungeon gear at level 70. Hell, with normal raid buffed values of 3000-4000 AP in high BT/SW SoB would be weaker than SoR at 100% crit.

[meliancill]

shuror is wright. the math works out lol

[Shuror]

shuror is wright. the math works out lol

You know why? Because lolsheath of Light increases SoR damage by a flat 60%. Yes, you read that right.

[Biral]

No. SoR/SoV scale far, far better with attack power than SoB/SoC, and that is amplified by Sheath of Light.

All right, let's say we have a paladin with a great weapon and craptastic attack power. 150 base weapon DPS and 1500 attack power, and with ShoL 1500*0.3 = 450 spell damage. The total weapon DPS is 150+1500/14 = 257. SoB would do 0.35*257 = 90 DPS.

And what would SoR do? 5% AP + 10% spell damage is 0.05*1500+0.10*450 = 120 DPS.

You would need 33% crit to make SoB outdamage SoR. But wait, there is a talent which makes SoR do 15% more damage, and it's perfectly available for ret paladins. That would make you need 53% crit for SoR to outscale SoB.

So SoR deals more damage with a weapon stronger than Apolyon and attack power which you have in blue dungeon gear at level 70. Hell, with normal raid buffed values of 3000-4000 AP in high BT/SW SoB would be weaker than SoR at 100% crit.

You did the SoB math wrong man, it's not weapon DPS that counts, it's weapon damage.

And you're looking at 1500 AP for a valid statement? Really? Come on. Bump that figure up to 2000 at least.

Using The Blade of Harbingers for simplicity: 3.5 sec base attack speed, 134.0 DPS * 3.5 = 469 average hit
SoR at 2000 AP with Sheathe: 5%*2000+10%*2000*30%=160
SoB/SoM at 2000 AP with Sheathe: (469+2000/14)*35%=214.15

Even at 1500 AP, SoB/SoM is better at 201.65 DPS. Again, your math is wrong: You were calculating damage of SoB/SoM on a 1 second attack speed weapon which hit for an average of 150 every time. Of course it would be horrible damage returns.

That, and even with the Seals of the Pure, you're looking at less damage. 160*1.15=184, still less than SoB/SoM. Also, SoB/SoM's Judgement effect takes into account your weapon damage, attack power, and spell power, not just small coefficients for attack power and spell power like SoR does.

[Shuror]

You did the SoB math wrong man, it's not weapon DPS that counts, it's weapon damage.

And you're looking at 1500 AP for a valid statement? Really? Come on. Bump that figure up to 2000 at least.

Using The Blade of Harbingers for simplicity: 3.5 sec base attack speed, 134.0 DPS * 3.5 = 469 average hit
SoR at 2000 AP with Sheathe: 5%*2000+10%*2000*30%=160
SoB/SoM at 2000 AP with Sheathe: (469+2000/14)*35%=214.15

Even at 1500 AP, SoB/SoM is better at 201.65 DPS. Again, your math is wrong: You were calculating damage of SoB/SoM on a 1 second attack speed weapon which hit for an average of 150 every time. Of course it would be horrible damage returns.

That, and even with the Seals of the Pure, you're looking at less damage. 160*1.15=184, still less than SoB/SoM. Also, SoB/SoM's Judgement effect takes into account your weapon damage, attack power, and spell power, not just small coefficients for attack power and spell power like SoR does.

SoR damage also scales with weapon speed. My math is correct; weapon speed doesn't matter as no instant attacks or PPMs are involved.

My ridiculously low AP was meant to disprove the statement that SoR only outdamages SoB if you have high AP and a bad weapon.

[Samiel]

Actually, Weaponspeed doesn't matter on SoR, they normalized it for 2-H and 1-H

[Shuror]

Actually, Weaponspeed doesn't matter on SoR, they normalized it for 2-H and 1-H

SoR DPS doesn't matter with weapon speed, but this guy who I quoted thinks it does; that SoR is a static addition to weapon damage independant of attack speed.