A warning to Raiding Ret Paladins.

[Veliane]

Why would I, as a raid leader, bring a subpar dps and subpar healer when I could just bring a strong dps and let the large number of aoe/group heals already being cast take care of the healing the retadin would have done?

The answer is you don't.
You do because Ret pallys will probably be close to the strongest melee dps after they get tuned down, but they will have utility, why bringing a rogue, eh?

[Tigercat]

They could be strong dps, if they don't do silly things like stop after every third swing to cast a weak heal.

[Swampmoose]

Void, please go to the Shaman forum and tell the enhance shamans that they are going to have to start casting heals every 15 seconds and tell them that if they don't they are going to be replaced in raids. I want to see how the thread turns out. Thanks

[Alyxa]

Reading this thread was totally worth it just to see Rawberry's responses to the trolls.

[Voidseeker]

You bring a ret paladin to a raid because they provide solid DPS while buffing their raid passively, they give 3% crit, 2% damage, 3% haste, mana regen while DPSing and healing while DPSing.

A paladin in a 25 man raid should never cast a heal at all at a boss if they are DPS, with only couple of exceptions.
Naj'entus is one of them and the only reason I cast a heal there is because I have nothing else to do, and even then I precast so that my heal hits after the bubble is burst so I lose no DPS time.
Again, if any class is brought to a raid to DPS then they just stick to DPSing like glue, its the healers job to heal trough anything and that is that.

If SoB ends up not being the top DPS seal then I'll switch to whatever is better, after all its my job in raids to output as much DPS as possible, and before you talk about utility, you should note that the paladin DPS has been designed to provide utility while DPSing, not to gimp themselfs by casting heals in a boss fight.

I agree with what is bolded, although I am not sure what you mean by healing while DPSing - DS is the only active healing from DPS and its healing is less than impressive right now.

SoB will be top DPS in tank and spank, I am not debating that. SoB scales with the weapon, so there is a gear based point where the DPS will over take SoV. That is a given. But it also requires that the Paladin be doing nothing but hit the mob. We will have to see how many raid encounters allow nothing but hitting the mob from the melee DPS.

The whole point of showing the math behind SoV is that it allows the Paladins to put out respectable DPS separate from auto-attack and SoB procs. In fights were you will not be able to stand and beat on the mob the whole time (say because the mob aggros on anyone within melee range) Ret will be able to use SoV+CS+DS to keep the DoT up and Judge and still do other things. Just an example.

And right now Ret should never cast as heal, not because of the DPS loss (as there are fights where there is time to do it) but because it is a waste of mana. The healing is piss poor in TBC and the mana is better used elsewhere. Neither of those are true in WotLK.

You should also realize that by the very fact Blizz is trying to make as many specs as possible raid viable that bringing a certain spec or not stops becoming mandatory and start becoming a bonus.
For example, would you bring a hunter to the raid? It isn't mandatory, a mage and a rogue could still DPS fine and the mage provides some mana regen with the water elemental or the mana regen could be provided by a shadow priest, but you still bring a hunter because he does good DPS and the mana regen+ expose weakness is a great bonus.
Why bring a ret paladin? His mana regen can be covered by a lot of other classes indeed, the healing can be covered by DK, a lot of other classes can do equal DPS, however none the less its still a nice bonus to have a ret paladin because he brings 3% crit, 2% damage, 3% haste, mana regen and healing all in one while DPSing.

Competition will be more fierce now since more classes will be viable and add nice utility while also doing good damage, it will come down to skill for whoever gets a raid spot and it a way that is how it should be, you should bring people because of skill not because of the bonuses.

I DO realize how raid is changing, and that is why I posted the topic in the first place. There will be MORE competition for raid spots, and the buffs from a Ret Paladin are not enough to guarantee a Ret being in the raid. Even more so for 10 man raids. So a Ret Paladin that can be awesome DPS on a tank and spank one fight, but weave in and out while tossing heals in the example above will be brought over a Ret that just stands around the next fight tossing a few heals and then OOM.

This topic was addressed to the Ret Paladins that already can do solid DPS. I am not trying to teach them how to play the DPS role. It is a warning that they need to learn how to do DPS differently (at times) and that they will need to heal. The changes to all of our talents and abilities make it obvious that is the case.

Divine storm+ JoL will heal trough any damage that my seal of blood and judgment of blood could do in a raid, your entire argument is void.

Want to just say that if DS and JoL are able to heal all of the damage from SoB when raid geared my point is actually not void, but resolved. The point is to be "self sufficient" - not just a knuckle dragging SoB heal sucker that only hits three buttons (Judgement / CS / DS). I honestly hope that DS and JoL are able to do so when tuning is completed as it will allow Ret to output more DPS and be self sufficient.

Why would I, as a raid leader, bring a subpar dps and subpar healer when I could just bring a strong dps and let the large number of aoe/group heals already being cast take care of the healing the retadin would have done?

This is the question WotLK Ret must face.

The answer is you don't.
You do because Ret pallys will probably be close to the strongest melee dps after they get tuned down, but they will have utility, why bringing a rogue, eh?

And I don't agree with you there at all. We can heal when needed, Rogues can only do DPS. With equal gear Ret will not be allowed to out DPS "pure" DPS specs. We will be on par with other mixed specs though. Blizzard will tune things so that no pure DPS class is behind a hybrid class to make sure that the "why bring xxx" is not asked.


Let me expound on that some more. Retribution Paladins are not comparable to Shadow Priests or Enhancement Shamans. Prot Paladins are. Why? There are Specs that can only do ONE job. Enhancement Shamans and Shadow Priests are PURE DPS. Prot Paladins are PURE TANK. Sure they can try to toss some heals, but they are like TBC Ret Paladins in that their heals are more a waste of mana than anything else.

Retribution is not pure DPS. Don't freak out over that, we still do solid DPS. But it is the Paladin hybrid spec if you will. It is the same as Elemental Shamans and Discipline Priests. We can DPS and Heal. Elemental Shamans can top charts, and at the same time toss out heals when needed. My roommate raids with one and is usually in top 4 DPS, but has been able to toss heals when needed as well. HOPEFULLY we will be able to do the same in WotLK, but DPS tuning will decide that.

That is the new way we have to look at Ret. We are no longer DPS only because we cannot do anything else. We have been given the abilities to do more than just DPS effectively. So being true hybrids, with most of our buffs/utility being passively active or built into our special attacks we are also able to effectively heal when needed.



And on a totally separate note: I apologize for my snarky and condescending jabs in my replies last night. Was working late and pissed off over real life stuff, should have kept it out of my replies in this topic. So if was insulting to you in my reply I apologize. Less than mature on my part for sure.

[Doven]

This guy just sounds like he is a warlock/rouge that is crying now that he has to compete with pallys for dps spots in raids, just another blah blah blah at lvl cap ret tree should be removed from game blah blah blah get in the back and heal blah blah blah im a fag.

[Voidseeker]

ROFL. Thanks for making an account for just that post I guess.

Actually I have raided end game with a Paladin, Druid, and Warlock, but no rogue. So you are 33% right, as the GF and I both would be shocked to find out I'm gay.

And right now working on getting my Beta Paladin to 80 (even with the broken judgments) so I can test out new raid content, as RET even.

[scett]

yeah you go do that. well just wait our turn tyvm.

seriusly thoug. i dont get. al this ranting about paladins that shouldnt DPS. your just scared of losing your raiding spot i asume.
cant blame you thoug. with al the changes to alot of speccs of alot of classes making there DPS side more raid valid.

still, theres alot. and i mean alot of variables to consider, raid setup, party setup, buffs, encounters etc. etc.
even thoug, barging in claiming that using seal of blood in a raid envirment is going to give the healers a harder tiem then they already have.. i highly doubt it.
sure if 5 man you might wanna take it a little easy on the SoB. but in raid instances...
your making it sound like the only person(s) who ever get damage in a raid is going to be the main tank/off tank(s)...

edit: crap.. it finaly hit me like a truck.
i get your point and al i can say at this point is its beta.
i doubt paladins will be critting for 24K on live any time soon.
so when there DPS gets fixxed. SoB will be less of an isue asumebly.

[Biral]

Void, the only thing I can really say to these 8 pages is this:

A good player will be brought to raid over a bad player.

Whether Ret or not, a good player will adapt to the situation at hand.

DPS wise, SoB/SoM will still be the reigning champ, unless that 20% increase chance for SoC proc glyph proves anything different. On the debuff issue with SoV/SoCorr: It's definately an issue. Stacking debuffs like SoV especially as these take up a lot of information server-wide and can lead to some expensive bandwidth problems for both the company and ourselves.

We don't want WoW to go bankrupt from its bandwidth bill we caused right? =)

[Shuror]

The new Retribution Paladin will be doing damage to the mobs, but will be making use of all their other abilities as well. Judgements of the Wise and Sheath of Light are required and ensure that a Ret Paladin will be able to not only put out solid DPS but be able to toss Heals / Hands / Blessings and use offensive spells all without requiring any healing from the other healers for mana.

Buffing? Throwing Hands around? Judging? Yes, of course.

Healing? No.

Even with Sheath of Light, Ret Paladins are not by far a viable healer in raids. JotW will likely not provide infinite mana for the paladin, as if the paladin has a high percentage of max mana, JotW will probably target three other raid members. And if you have a choice, would rather lose DPS, heal and take the mana for yourself or give it to a healing specced player in need of mana?

Ret heals are going to be much weaker than a healing geared and specced character.

[Nubs]

Tagging on to what the OP said:

If you see an ally getting low, don't be afraid to toss them a LOH, the healers will thank you for saving them alot of time. Then if you see another person getting low, toss them a light and activate SoW and white damage the boss to death. In a few minutes you'll have enough mana to heal another raid member, saving your healers time needed to keep up the rest of the group.

[Samiel]

And the tank will have outDPS'ed you, and you will have wasted a raid spot, because those heals did nothing to improve the raids overall DPS or performance, and only "saved" the healers one GCD on a HoT or if they were raid healers, interrupted their job, because that heal you tossed, made them waste the heal they were already tossing on that person with low health.

[Voidseeker]

Buffing? Throwing Hands around? Judging? Yes, of course.

Healing? No.

Even with Sheath of Light, Ret Paladins are not by far a viable healer in raids. JotW will likely not provide infinite mana for the paladin, as if the paladin has a high percentage of max mana, JotW will probably target three other raid members. And if you have a choice, would rather lose DPS, heal and take the mana for yourself or give it to a healing specced player in need of mana?

Ret heals are going to be much weaker than a healing geared and specced character.

Currently JotW IS infinite mana - and unless they changed it recently - it is not off max mana but total mana. Regardless though, the Paladin is supposed to always be 1 of the 3 for mana return. They broke Paladins this last build so I have been going old school aoe-reck grinding. As soon as we get fixed will confirm how JotW is working.

But "losing" the DPS of a ret for a short time vs someone dying is always a simple choice, and my warning was to say that choice will come up a lot more. 25 mans are the only place where Ret may be able to go multiple fights without tossing a few heals. 10 mans (which will be far more common) will see Rets doing SoV & back up heal tossing often I bet.

And yes, Ret heals will be less than a Pure healer, but nothing like it is now. Ret heals are closer to the level of Pure healers, esp with crits adding HoTS, than any other non-pure healer spec.

And the tank will have outDPS'ed you, and you will have wasted a raid spot, because those heals did nothing to improve the raids overall DPS or performance, and only "saved" the healers one GCD on a HoT or if they were raid healers, interrupted their job, because that heal you tossed, made them waste the heal they were already tossing on that person with low health.

This is not a personal attack, but please try to be more open minded about things. There are more than just 25 man raids, as every raid in WotLK has a 10 man version. Think 5 Kara's.

And Ret DPS is not so end of the world god-like that losing one swing will wipe a raid. Ret DPS will be lower on the charts in Wrath vs Live as almost everyone is getting a boost in their DPS. And just by being there Ret will be boosting those same people even more.

We understand that you are never going to heal, and that you believe you are "hurting" the raid if you ever do so. That is fine. You and the other 24 people you raid with can choose to play whichever way you want.

[NerDy]

lol childish thinking by alot of ppl...

Now... Lets start with basics ok ?

1. Retadins will be going for the same gear as dps warrior and DK... So... the chance of getting into 10 mans for example is even lower now than before. There will never be more than 3 melee dps in 10 man and maybe 6 in 26 man. Ok take your pick once again considering that you will need interuptions on every other boss or so...

2. Retadins are part of 3 way group of wich one is a healing spec. There are 4 healing classes in this game. There are 5 healing specs. But there are 16-18 dos classes... Yes... that means that there is always more likely to be a spot the healing spec... Or even tank since they are also one of 5 tanking spec. Seriously guys - get a grip and realise that if you want to do dps then ret paladins is not the class to pick.

3. Players playing ret palas have very bad rep for teamwork. Yes - this is a fact that wont go away. Most of the pala healers and tanks are willing to do whatever to help the raid out any way they can. Ret palas dont do this at all. They whine about their only job should be dpsing... lol... not even pure dps classes are that selfish.

1. your right. (they took our gear!)

2. let's play a rogue because I like playing as a pally?? WTH

3. what do you want us to do?? giving people bandages??
no i mean it. what do you want us to do? if we know what you want us to do. if the mana problem is solved we can heal our self and others.

[Xucuroz]

lol childish thinking by alot of ppl...

Now... Lets start with basics ok ?


3. Players playing ret palas have very bad rep for teamwork. Yes - this is a fact that wont go away. Most of the pala healers and tanks are willing to do whatever to help the raid out any way they can. Ret palas dont do this at all. They whine about their only job should be dpsing... lol... not even pure dps classes are that selfish.

Yes because every ret paladin is completely selfish! I just grouped with a mage that didn't know how to sheep, even though he was told repeatadly what to do and even had his a big icon over the mob he was suppose to sheep. I guess every mage is completely useless and doesn't know how to use team work. < See what i did there? There are lots of good mages and there are some bad ones. I don't assume every mage out there is bad.

You first of all start talking about people being childish and then you start being childish and assume every ret paladin is selfish and doesn't help the raid... Then you state pure classes aren't even that selfish. I know a lot of rogues who smash that little theory of yours, when it comes to being "selfish" and lacking "team work".

I suspect you are someone who rolled a pure damage class and are worried a class with less dps but with far superior utility is about to replace you. Yes there are about 18 specs that can do damage but they do not bring the same things to the table. Not to mention not every guild will be bring the same setups to raids, again you fail.

[Wolluis]

Hi Fadibo the troll?

Retri paladins won't be needing players like you in the raid.
http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=86339
http://i521.photobucket.com/albums/w...708_085542.jpg
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x...ldamagewn9.jpg

Now go back under the stone you just came and start fearing your spot in the raid becouse Retri paladins are there to do damage.

Edit: Wheren't you going to quite the game for some other nice MMO? I bet you just want to post your frustration on the downgrading of the holy paladin.

[Wolluis]

To relpy on this topic

Hi voidseeker, i use to play that quind of retri paladin in MC and BWL. Was more hybride spected. Did damage on the trash and boss but was alway's there to keep the melee group up and running. People realy loved the retri paladin in the old wow. Was alway's with the 10 best dpser and did about 30% of the healing what a Main healer would do.

The retri paladin should do pure dps on trash and bosses but always keping an eye on the melee group. Would not heal the rest of the raid becouse most of the time the ranged chars will be way out of range to heal anyway.
Don't forget that the retri paladin is going to compeet against 5 other melee dps classes for only 5 places in the raid. So his DPS overall should be following the Rogue dps. Doesn't have to be the same but i can't be that far off ether.

I wouldn't keep track of the tank, maybe to put an Lay on hands for some harder moment. But healing on tank should be done by the MT healers anyway, not the job of the retri paladin.

Still don't know how the new judgment and seal system realy work, didn't get a beta key yet to test it out.

[Yvert]

Are you retarded? It's fucking BETA right now. Jesus you act like it's coming out in a few days/weeks. That 1500dps for a pally will be avg in WOTLK it seems and that was after the 20k judgement change. They give us 1more attack to have and you all think we're OP. My god if you think we're getting boned go play a different class. Can't believe this thread is still going btw.

[Daedalon]

Are you retarded? It's fucking BETA right now. Jesus you act like it's coming out in a few days/weeks. That 1500dps for a pally will be avg in WOTLK it seems and that was after the 20k judgement change. They give us 1more attack to have and you all think we're OP. My god if you think we're getting boned go play a different class. Can't believe this thread is still going btw.

Ok - since all ret palas think they will be so uber for raiding... lets give you abit to think about....

How many ppl in raid will be getting health and mana from a SP? (note - BLizzard is saying two SP per 25 man raid will still give full benefits). Now ask youself - how many ppl will be getting mana/health from the ret uber "new" ability ? What classes will not get it ? Oh ... Maybe you now see why you are not in raids in TBC ? Maybe not...

Get a grip - Nothing has changed. You can do whatever dps you like but you will never do more than pure dps classes and you will still lack the abilites that make those classes needed. And your utility ability is not gonna be benefitting the key classes in every raid that ALL are in need of mana. Yes... if you didn't know... thats the healers... They are ALL mana classes and all wont benefit seals ....

You get it yet ?

Nothing has changed - Rets are still useless in raids...

[Averroes]

How many ret paladins will a guild bring with them in 25 man raids? Mabe at least3 hopefully in wotlk since current raids usually have none or just 1 and its usually at SW =/