A warning to Raiding Ret Paladins.

[skyclops]

yawn boring stale & complete theorycraft
a lot can change from beta to final release

[mutantboy]

Ok - since all ret palas think they will be so uber for raiding... lets give you abit to think about....

How many ppl in raid will be getting health and mana from a SP? (note - BLizzard is saying two SP per 25 man raid will still give full benefits). Now ask youself - how many ppl will be getting mana/health from the ret uber "new" ability ? What classes will not get it ? Oh ... Maybe you now see why you are not in raids in TBC ? Maybe not...

Get a grip - Nothing has changed. You can do whatever dps you like but you will never do more than pure dps classes and you will still lack the abilites that make those classes needed. And your utility ability is not gonna be benefitting the key classes in every raid that ALL are in need of mana. Yes... if you didn't know... thats the healers... They are ALL mana classes and all wont benefit seals ....

You get it yet ?

Nothing has changed - Rets are still useless in raids...

And yet you have totally failed to read what Ghostcrawler has been writing over and over - here's a few snippets:

"Stacking a raid in order to get the right buffs has started to feel a little like a crutch, much like stacking consumables felt not so long ago. Because some of the buffs scale so well and have so much synergy with other classes, you may sometimes feel that you should pass over a really skilled player in order to pick up a buff that will bring more to you group. We'd rather get back to bringing good players or, gasp, even your friends.

The goal is to get more people into raids and to let you bring the people you want. Ultimately, that should benefit everyone. Please try and keep that in mind as you start to see the changes.

Yes, totally. It works both ways. If everyone is bringing buffs, then classes that have always brought buffs need to be better at dps (or healing or tanking or whatever) so they aren't eclipsed. We want you to have options, and if some specs or classes are just demonstrably worse, they really aren't an option.

This is actually what we are trying to avoid. Our feeling is raids work too much like that now where you have to bring X class to have a reasonable chance of success. There are some buffs that most players would consider mandatory, or at least very powerful. You'll want to get those. You'll want 2 or so tanks and 7 or however many healers works for you. Then just take good people.

Remember the goal is to give you flexibility. The goal is to make raid stacking less uber so that more classes can get into a raid. It's easy to come up with potential problems with implementation specifics, but the goal is not to chase rogues or anyone out of the raid. If your group has 3 awesome rogues, or 2 fire mages that manage to pull out crazy dps, you should be able to bring them without hearing: Nope, we only raid with exactly 2 rogues, 1 mage, 2 hunters, 1 arms warrior, 3 destro locks, etc. etc. "

The whole point is you CAN bring a ret pally if you have one. And they will be able to do the job you want because they will have the tools to do so. You super leet dudes just need to get over yourselves and stop worrying about what classes to bring. Just collect 25 good players and go kill stuff. Stop feeling butt hurt because some class you don't like beat you in the damage meters.

[Aetius]

How many ret paladins will a guild bring with them in 25 man raids? Mabe at least3 hopefully in wotlk since current raids usually have none or just 1 and its usually at SW =/

There is a reason ret pallies arent making it into SW, a very obvious one that I dont think needs any explaining.

Now in WotLK, while they may be putting up some good numbers right now, its beta, and I promise promise promise you that ret will get nerfed before release.

And last of all..."Mabe at least3 hopefully in wotlk..."? I almost fell off my rocker when I read that. First of all Blizz has mentioned that they would like to average out the classes "In an Ideal World" to be 2.5 of each class in the raid (on average). Ret Pallies are not a pure dps and will probably or in most cases not be able to put up numbers on par with locks,mages,hunters, and rogues. And it's not a perfect world, your always going to get more of those classes in raids then ret pallies.

On a side note it will be hard for people to get over the notion that ret pallies are horrendous until they see one actually do decent damage in wotlk (considering they'll be able to do so). So they are at an admittedly unfair advantage to begin with, much as they are now. But that doesnt change anything in the end.

Unless Blizz allows ret pallies to do more damage than the pure dps classes for some reason, there is no way i'd be taking one over a dps class. And if that's the case, it looks like I'll be respeccing my tankadin to ret and just delete my mage.

In the end there just really isnt anything ret pallies can bring to the table that other classes cant do better. If I ever have more than 2 (2 being a stretch in itself), or on second thought, maybe 1 ret pally in my raid (I can work with one)...it means one of two things...an encounter requires multiple ret pallies (Very very unlikely) or hell has frozen over.

Just the way it is, considering Prot Pallies are the best aoe tanks in the game and Healidans are very respectable healers (beacon of light will improve their lack in the area of group heals). Having the third, dps tree, competing with the dps classes in the game for best dps would just be silly and OP. It may not be fair to ret pallies, but the fact that prot and holy trees are very respectable in game requires blizzard to keep retribution a tier below the leet dps'ers.

[Aetius]

The whole point is you CAN bring a ret pally if you have one. And they will be able to do the job you want because they will have the tools to do so. You super leet dudes just need to get over yourselves and stop worrying about what classes to bring. Just collect 25 good players and go kill stuff. Stop feeling butt hurt because some class you don't like beat you in the damage meters.

ROFL, now this is comedy.

First of all, I have a pally and love it so there is no hating on the class from me. But if a ret pally has the same quality of gear and the same player talent as a lock/mage/hunter/rogue there is no way that the ret pally should beat it on the damage meter, with the exception of encounters like Loot Reaver where the retadin can sit there and pound away while ranged needs to keep moving.

Now onto the Ghostcrawler comment. My interpretation is that for raids you wont have to look around for a specific number of a class or even certain classes just to run for buffs/etc. They are doing this by implementing raidwide buffs and talents instead of party buffs and giving some classes buffs that give similar benefits as others. This as he mentions is awesome.

However, I think it would be naive to say that this means you can just throw 25 players together and go play. In WotLK they are trying to making some things easier to get more people involved and to make the encounters shorter. That being said the end game content will still require some thought and effort put into it. Blizzard would like to have everything be equal, but it isnt, hasnt been, and never will be. One class will always be averaging a little more damage than others, and they are going to get the nod when a guild is trying to down an endgame boss for the first time.

It would be nice to play fair and bring all classes and what not, but when the raid wipes at 1 or 2 percent on an end game boss that you are trying to down for the first time, odds are someone is going to say "damn, we shouldnt have picked up that melee hunter." Thats a joke, but you get the picture.

Yes for your early raids and instances I dont think it will matter if you have a couple of ret pallies in it. But on the very last raids, just a little bit makes the difference.

Nothing against ret pallies, if they are doing more damage then other dps classes in WotLK, then I'm all for bringing a crap-ton of ret pallies in for an endgame boss to down it. If they cant compete on the meters, they are going to be on the outside looking in, just the way it is. It just depends on how everything works out. There is a reason Kil'Jaedan raids are loaded with locks and 1/2/or no mages...they just do more damage. Thats the way it works.

[mcstu]

ROFL, now this is comedy.

. There is a reason Kil'Jaedan raids are loaded with locks and 1/2/or no mages...they just do more damage. Thats the way it works.

and blizz are saying that this is exactly what they do not want in wotlk. They want all classes to be able to be in raids cause their guild trusts them to play well and doesnt have to recruit some nub just cause he is of a particular class. the argument of this post was what a ret pallys job will be in the new raids. they increased their dps so they would not have the stigma that prevents them currently being recruited. OFc i totally disagree with the role the OP wants for rets, but at least he wasnt saying they shouldnt be in a raid- regardless if its the end boss himself, in the 1st place.

But if a ret pally has the same quality of gear and the same player talent as a lock/mage/hunter/rogue there is no way that the ret pally should beat it on the damage meter,

they should have to work hard to beat them though. Blizz just wants to narrow the gap. I would pick a guy regardless of class if i had raided with him for years over some 'pure dps' that cant stay in one guild for more that a month.

[mutantboy]

Dunno what's going on here - only some of the posters here appear to be reading the same blue tracker I'm reading.

one theme comes through: your raid will have a number of "buff" players, in exactly the same way you do currently (s/priest, Feral etc)
But after you have those buffs + healers and tanks you will have significant wiggle room. I didn't mean to imply that after you fill the 15 must haves you would just be able to grab 10 anybodies. But it doesn't look like there will be class stacking as there has been.

And easy as it is to say we wiped on 1% we need to change the raid make up the whole point is to make that something you won't want to do based on class. Currently that means saying to the ret pally you get to sit out. I think if you are making viability desicions on players in the future you won't say leave the ret pally behind - you will say hey bob last 2 attempts you were bottom of the DPS - /boot. And that won't be about the class - that will be cos you suck...

[Wolluis]

lol - You do know that Blizzard have officially said that Ret paladins are way to overpowered atm. If you think 20k crits will be normal for rets.... gratz nub

Hi Fadibo the troll.

I posted those links to show you retri paladins can do damage, that Blizzard worked hard and listened to there players base to do someting about the broken classes. You made a 3 point argument they don't and as i qoute you again

get a grip and realise that if you want to do dps then ret paladins is not the class to pick.

Atleast i asked the Beta players to put some screenshots up that proved the "semi god" retri paladins, so i'm well aware of the situation on Beta now.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=13425.15

[Yvert]

Ok - since all ret palas think they will be so uber for raiding... lets give you abit to think about....

How many ppl in raid will be getting health and mana from a SP? (note - BLizzard is saying two SP per 25 man raid will still give full benefits). Now ask youself - how many ppl will be getting mana/health from the ret uber "new" ability ? What classes will not get it ? Oh ... Maybe you now see why you are not in raids in TBC ? Maybe not...

Get a grip - Nothing has changed. You can do whatever dps you like but you will never do more than pure dps classes and you will still lack the abilites that make those classes needed. And your utility ability is not gonna be benefitting the key classes in every raid that ALL are in need of mana. Yes... if you didn't know... thats the healers... They are ALL mana classes and all wont benefit seals ....

You get it yet ?

Nothing has changed - Rets are still useless in raids...

Yeah i guess I'm just imagining going to bt and hyjal every week. I'm the only raiding ret pally in my guild as of now.

That's fine and dandy a pure dps class cant out dps me. I'm not there to top meters I'm there to give that extra buffing to everyone. As a matter of fact i don't use a dps meter cause it proves nothing. As long as the boss dies who cares.

If i wanted to top meters and stoke my epeen over everyone i would of leveled my rogue or mage up. But i didn't, I'm a ret pally and i hold my own.

[Varaben]

I cant believe some of the posts I have been reading here. You would think this is pre-bc raiding or something. I raid bt/hyjal on my ret paladin and I am always top 5 dps (sometimes inexpliacbly 7th or 8th). I dont think people should be allowed to post about wrath stuff unless they are either in beta or have at least read all the up to date beta notes/Blue posts. Anyway, from what I understand ret is going to be a melee shadow priest with a little aoe capability. If you think ret doesnt deserve a raid spot then you are close-minded and have no business playing your little rogue or warlock or whatever you think is better than ret. And to the person who said: "theres no reason to bring a ret unless they do more damage than a warlock/mage/hunter," that can be said for every class. Why not just bring 15 warlocks to DPS for you? Oh, that wouldnt be good would it? because thats not how raiding works. You cant bring the "best" dps only, you need things from every class to help the raid perform at its best. In wrath, many classes are getting overlapping buffs to help this. You wont need one of each class anymore, but basically bringing 15 random dps (as long as there is some variety) will yield a good raid. All the dps specs are going to yield similar dps. Were not in kansas anymore.

[Rawberry]

Ok - since all ret palas think they will be so uber for raiding... lets give you abit to think about....

How many ppl in raid will be getting health and mana from a SP? (note - BLizzard is saying two SP per 25 man raid will still give full benefits). Now ask youself - how many ppl will be getting mana/health from the ret uber "new" ability ? What classes will not get it ? Oh ... Maybe you now see why you are not in raids in TBC ? Maybe not...

Get a grip - Nothing has changed. You can do whatever dps you like but you will never do more than pure dps classes and you will still lack the abilites that make those classes needed. And your utility ability is not gonna be benefitting the key classes in every raid that ALL are in need of mana. Yes... if you didn't know... thats the healers... They are ALL mana classes and all wont benefit seals ....

You get it yet ?

Nothing has changed - Rets are still useless in raids...

While most of your posts are usually on the money Daedalon, this one is just right off. To illustrate where you are wrong I would like to compare our Retribution Paladin to a class that should deal superior Melee DPS, the Rogue.

Now, on his own the Retribution Paladin should not have a chance to out DPS the Rogue if we assume same skill level and gear. But funny enough the Retribution Paladin does bring equal if not more DPS to the raid than the Rogue does.


<Insert your "What the fuck is he talking about" face here>


The problem (if we can call it that) lies within the 3% added crit. chance, 2% damage increase and 3% Haste rating the Paladin offers. So how much DPS increase does the Retribution Paladin offer? Some basic math:

According to some theorycrafters at Elitest 1% crit. chance boils down to somewhere around the 1.15-1.30% of DPS increase.

3 * 1.15%
+ 2% (Damage increase Retribution Aura)
+ 3% (Haste increase Retribution Aura)

That totals to a rough 8.45% DPS increase for all damage dealing classes in your raid.

And it is that DPS increase alone that totally negates the argument that a Retribution Paladin should not be taken along just because it deals mediocre DPS when compared to say the best Melee damage dealing class in the game, the Rogue.

[Daedalon]

Ret palas problems in TBC had nothing to do with how much extra dmg they could bring to the raid - sadly. It had to do with the fact that some other classes were more needed. Not because of their buffing abilites (including extra dmg from others) but more because of special abilites that was needed in so many encounters - just to survife. That is interuption ofc. Lack of interuption ability will continue to be the main problem for rets. Warriors, shamans and rogues will continue to dominate raiding cause there are so many bosses that requier this ability.

The other fact is that new melee class is beeing added to the game so the few spots that already were available in close range to a boss that in many cases needs ppl to be spread out. So the range classes will always be prefered no matter how much extra the ret paladin brings. Just because the boss encounters simply dont allow for 5-8 melee classes to stand in close range - spanking the boss. Thats just how it is and Blizzard will not give Ret palas interuption ability simply because then hey are they will be way to overpowered on all fronts compared to the other melee classes.

Its this simple.

[Hexxidecimal]

To the above poster, I have choosen to believe you over everyone else. I have not end game raided much, only TK and SSC but we had a ret pally and he did amazing...for when he didn't need a certain class set up. But I would hope for the end end game things would generally stay the same. With the buffing being more easily done, I hope that this problem will be somewhat alleviated in WotLK as well

[mcstu]

Ret palas problems in TBC had nothing to do with how much extra dmg they could bring to the raid - sadly. It had to do with the fact that some other classes were more needed. Not because of their buffing abilites (including extra dmg from others) but more because of special abilites that was needed in so many encounters - just to survife. That is interuption ofc. Lack of interuption ability will continue to be the main problem for rets. Warriors, shamans and rogues will continue to dominate raiding cause there are so many bosses that requier this ability.

The other fact is that new melee class is beeing added to the game so the few spots that already were available in close range to a boss that in many cases needs ppl to be spread out. So the range classes will always be prefered no matter how much extra the ret paladin brings. Just because the boss encounters simply dont allow for 5-8 melee classes to stand in close range - spanking the boss. Thats just how it is and Blizzard will not give Ret palas interuption ability simply because then hey are they will be way to overpowered on all fronts compared to the other melee classes.

Its this simple.

Never had a problem with a ret pally being in boss fights where interupts are needed. Paladins will not get an interupt in pve, not because of the reason you gave but because they have no need to. Plenty of other classes can do it. Thankfully blizz are trying to get rid of the 'must have classX for boss Y' mind set (which tbh is unecessary if you raid is made up of solid, good players) and this should allow the lolret attitude to disappear.

n.b. Pallys will actually have an interupt in wotlk for undead/demons if you get the glyph of exorcism

[Varaben]

I hope they put a lot of undead bosses in the game so we will have some better dps/utility for those encounters.

[briany]

LEARN TO BE SELF SUFFICIENT.

In WotLK if you are a burden to the healers of a raid by using SoB to "get some extra mana" be prepared to be replaced quickly. With the changes to the class and mechanics, barring being nerfed into oblivion again, there will be a larger pool of Ret Paladins out there and among those will be ones that understand their new role.

Ret Paladins are not meant to be rogues, doing nothing be beating on the mob that is being tanked. If this is the only thing you like to do you will need to reroll as your Ret Pally will be unwelcome on raids. And this is even more true of Ret Paladins that pretend they don't have heal spells & drain the mana of other healers.

Let the rage addicts and rune monkeys suck down the healers mana, Paladins do not need to anymore and in fact will be able to help keep those fools up, while still pumping out good numbers.



The new Retribution Paladin will be doing damage to the mobs, but will be making use of all their other abilities as well. Judgements of the Wise and Sheath of Light are required and ensure that a Ret Paladin will be able to not only put out solid DPS but be able to toss Heals / Hands / Blessings and use offensive spells all without requiring any healing from the other healers for mana.

Learn to love SoV, master keeping the Holy DoT up at all times while using all the other abilities you have during fights. As long as you keep 5 stacks on the mob and judge it every 8 seconds you will be able to use all the other GDCs for anything you want and have solid DPS. Ret Paladins new goal will be to have a solid placement on both the dmage AND healing meters, not just damage.

about damage taken from SoB. Divine storm will solve this problem and if there's multiple paladins in the raid + sniper judgement, you will likelysee JoL, which means additional heal. So, SoB isn't really a problem, healers shouldn't worry too much.

Ret's new role in raids will be.... DPS. If you need a dps hybrid to toss a heal, I think the first one to fire are your terrible healers. But of course, if things go south and your ret doesn't toss emergency heal, then the ret might be a problem. But really, I think ret might not be as good as rogues, but they will definitely be on par with them. Remember, raid size is 25, and you have 10 classes. Blizzard does not want some class specs to lose raiding spot, so trust me, pallies' dps won't be fixed off the board and pally's dps will definitely be on par with rogues on most circumstances.

"Ret Paladins are not meant to be rogues, doing nothing be beating on the mob that is being tanked. If this is the only thing you like to do you will need to reroll as your Ret Pally will be unwelcome on raids. And this is even more true of Ret Paladins that pretend they don't have heal spells & drain the mana of other healers."

ret pallies wear plate, can heal themselves and they have divine protection, or 50% dmg mitigation. I think ret pallies can effectively tank a single mob for a little more than 12 - 20 sec, (longer in heroics). and will definitely tank better than rogues. o

healers are expected to AE heal. If the ret loves aggro, healers will treat them just like rogues. and I'm not sure if you get it, but let me make it clear. that ret will not receive heals just like nub rogues are treated.

"Learn to love SoV, master keeping the Holy DoT up at all times while using all the other abilities you have during fights. As long as you keep 5 stacks on the mob and judge it every 8 seconds you will be able to use all the other GDCs for anything you want and have solid DPS. Ret Paladins new goal will be to have a solid placement on both the dmage AND healing meters, not just damage."

actually, from this statement, I can tell you are a nub. Have you ever heard of aggro wipe? I hope you know aggro wipe can destroy affliction locks if taunt is resisted. SoV is terrible for ret. use Blood or Command (with inscription).

SoV is a tanking tool. leave it for the tank to stack it.

[briany]

The other fact is that new melee class is beeing added to the game so the few spots that already were available in close range to a boss that in many cases needs ppl to be spread out. So the range classes will always be prefered no matter how much extra the ret paladin brings. Just because the boss encounters simply dont allow for 5-8 melee classes to stand in close range - spanking the boss. Thats just how it is and Blizzard will not give Ret palas interuption ability simply because then hey are they will be way to overpowered on all fronts compared to the other melee classes.

Its this simple.

I don't think you quite understand the importance of raid-wide buffs that the ret pally brings.
on top of ret aura (extra threat for tank), extra blessing (BoM for tank to add threat, and dps to dpsers)

2% dps increase for the raid. If you have 10 dpsers dealing damage each with roughly 10% each, 2% is the same as adding 1/5 of a person. dmg modifiers also benefit other classes such as more mana/hp gain etc.

3% crit applies not just to melee, but also to casters. If you go wtf here, I suggest you quit arguing and read some patch notes. If this doesnt sound good to you then read next

3% haste applies also not just to melee, but to casters and healers. healers healing faster means they are much better in dealing with burst dmg. 3% haste to casters and melee dps means they hit faster. With JoL and JoW, they regain more HP and mana.

Judgement of the wise returns mana to people with 3 lowest mana in the raid (correct me if I'm wrong). more mana means higher longetivity, means more dps or more heals.

divine storm heals your allies for the damage you deal. we are expecting to see AE damage. this will help the healers mitigate some sort of damage.

lastly, ret pallies bring a solid dps that can compare with rogues.

No one is asking for multiple ret pallies in a raid, cos those buffs do not stack, but you just can't ignore those buffs that rets can bring. If you disagree with me, you are telling all of us that you know nothing about the game.

[Voidseeker]

about damage taken from SoB. Divine storm will solve this problem and if there's multiple paladins in the raid + sniper judgement, you will likelysee JoL, which means additional heal. So, SoB isn't really a problem, healers shouldn't worry too much.

DS does good healing now, with multiple mobs. JoL is also a good way to heal, and it has already been discussed that AFTER damage tuning we will see if these will be enough to heal off the damage that is going to be generated at 80.

If it does it backs up the main point of my statement: learn to be self sufficient. Keeping JoL up perm and DS every CD possible = not using any of the healers mana (if it works that way after tuning). Mana is going to be extremely important as there is only ONE pot allowed per fight now. If the encounter is a endurance fight, say 15 min boss fight, and there is a one pot limit every point of mana is going to need to be used most effectively. A Ret Paladin that just has on SoB and lets the healers heal off the damage is going to be replaced by a Ret that does not.

Ret's new role in raids will be.... DPS. If you need a dps hybrid to toss a heal, I think the first one to fire are your terrible healers. But of course, if things go south and your ret doesn't toss emergency heal, then the ret might be a problem. But really, I think ret might not be as good as rogues, but they will definitely be on par with them. Remember, raid size is 25, and you have 10 classes. Blizzard does not want some class specs to lose raiding spot, so trust me, pallies' dps won't be fixed off the board and pally's dps will definitely be on par with rogues on most circumstances.

That is not a new role. And you assume that the healers are bad, yet you have no idea how the encounters are setup. Also it is obvious that you are only thinking about 25 man raids, which are only HALF of the raids available now, and will be run a whole lot less than their 10 man versions. Imagine that same 15 min endurance fight tuned for 10 players. The importance of being able to not be a mana drain and being able to add heals goes up in those situations.

The assumption that Ret DPS will be on par with rogue damage really hurts your other points, and makes no sense juxtaposed with the next statement of "Blizzard does not want some class specs to lose raiding spot". If Ret DPS is on par with Rogues then why bring a rogue? There are other classes that can do their interrupt job, and more rets could equal more forced Divine Guardian spec'ed Ret Paladins that can reduce damage to the raid by 30% for a short time. And that is just one example of why it would be better to bring more Rets than Rogues.

Damage is the only reason to bring rogues, always has been, except for small gimmicks that go all the way back to BWL raiding days. They have gradually made things easier for melee DPS since launch (making cleave a 180 front facing attack for example) that allowed rogues to do the one thing they were brought for: DPS. If Paladins and DKs can do that level of damage there will be no spots in raids for squishy rogues or any other melee DPS that does not wear plate. So no, we will not be on par with them.

ret pallies wear plate, can heal themselves and they have divine protection, or 50% dmg mitigation. I think ret pallies can effectively tank a single mob for a little more than 12 - 20 sec, (longer in heroics). and will definitely tank better than rogues. o

healers are expected to AE heal. If the ret loves aggro, healers will treat them just like rogues. and I'm not sure if you get it, but let me make it clear. that ret will not receive heals just like nub rogues are treated.

And there are more reasons that we will not be on par with rogues.

"Learn to love SoV, master keeping the Holy DoT up at all times while using all the other abilities you have during fights. As long as you keep 5 stacks on the mob and judge it every 8 seconds you will be able to use all the other GDCs for anything you want and have solid DPS. Ret Paladins new goal will be to have a solid placement on both the dmage AND healing meters, not just damage."

actually, from this statement, I can tell you are a nub. Have you ever heard of aggro wipe? I hope you know aggro wipe can destroy affliction locks if taunt is resisted. SoV is terrible for ret. use Blood or Command (with inscription).

SoV is a tanking tool. leave it for the tank to stack it.

You mention Aggro Wipe, and yet just above mention that Ret can tank for a short time. Ret also has a bubble, and if talented would reduce damage to the raid by 30%. On aggro wipe bosses, if any DPS was going to pull it would actually be best for Ret to be the one to do so; unless the boss is taunt mechanic immune of course – but moot point because in those fights no DoTs would be allowed at all.

Also please do not assume that I am saying Ret Paladins are so stupid that they would use a DoT in a fight with an Aggro Wipe gimmick. Obviously that would not be the time to use it. My original statement was to plant the seed of another way to do damage.

As has already been stated by me and others here: on tank and spank fights were melee DPS can stay in the whole time this new way of doing damage will not be maximum DPS. On fights were melee is constantly being forced away from the mob, let's use Gruuls as an example as almost everyone has seen that fight, or avoiding environmental effects / tricky aggro-by-proximity fights a Ret paladin that is able to keep up SoV with a one hit melee attack every 15 seconds while still Judging every 8 will be able to do more damage than one that runs in for 1 or 2 swings with SoB up and then forced to run out all the time.

I don't think you quite understand the importance of raid-wide buffs that the ret pally brings.
on top of ret aura (extra threat for tank), extra blessing (BoM for tank to add threat, and dps to dpsers)

2% dps increase for the raid. If you have 10 dpsers dealing damage each with roughly 10% each, 2% is the same as adding 1/5 of a person. dmg modifiers also benefit other classes such as more mana/hp gain etc.

3% crit applies not just to melee, but also to casters. If you go wtf here, I suggest you quit arguing and read some patch notes. If this doesnt sound good to you then read next

3% haste applies also not just to melee, but to casters and healers. healers healing faster means they are much better in dealing with burst dmg. 3% haste to casters and melee dps means they hit faster. With JoL and JoW, they regain more HP and mana.

Judgement of the wise returns mana to people with 3 lowest mana in the raid (correct me if I'm wrong). more mana means higher longetivity, means more dps or more heals.

divine storm heals your allies for the damage you deal. we are expecting to see AE damage. this will help the healers mitigate some sort of damage.

lastly, ret pallies bring a solid dps that can compare with rogues.

No one is asking for multiple ret pallies in a raid, cos those buffs do not stack, but you just can't ignore those buffs that rets can bring. If you disagree with me, you are telling all of us that you know nothing about the game.

While this was directed at another person I wanted to reply to it.

I, and almost everyone else here with informed comments, have never said that a Ret Paladin will not be brought on raids. Any raid lacking a Ret Paladin will be less off than those with one. But there will most likely be ONLY one spot. If there is one spot, but a larger pool of raiding Ret Paladins, which there will be in WotLK, it should not be hard to see why I posted my warning.

All the reasons you listed for bringing a Ret Paladin come with ANY Ret that is speced for the job (minus the last one as it will not be the case – covered above). So the deciding factor of which Ret Paladin in guild GETS to raid, and which gets to read guild chat while doing dailies or leveling an alt, will come down to skill and utility. Again the reason for my warning.

Again, if TBC Ret raiders do not step up their game and are able to be solid Ret Paladins in all types of fights, they will be replaced in WotLK by new/other Paladins that are.

[Vorpal]

I guess you have a point there, yes we cannot and should not replace rogues or any other pure DPS out there. About being self sufficient well yes we should be able to help on the healing but only if we must prevent a wipe. After all this is just like all other hybrids which are brought mainly for their utility in a raid like the SP, the melee shamie, the fury warrior and the Boomkin. We are their to do some desent damage and help with our buffs and debuffs, not to heal unless needed. About the only one spot on each raid yeah i agree with that, 2 retris tops, because that will mean both JoW and JoL effect increase.

Thanks.