DPS plate...

[Maverick494]

So it appears in beta that all the DPS plate is pretty much warrior gear, no int at all. Where do we get our int from to maintain our damage level? Is our mana regen that good in wrath that we can get away with a barely above a base mana pool? If it is that good, will it stay that way or are we going to get nerfed and be in dire need of int again?

[bbr]

You'll probably need less int, or simply get more mana regeneration options.

[GT4]

Judgement of the Wise alone regenerates way more mana than you could spend in the cooldown between Judgements - you don't need Int at all.

[Rawberry]

Judgement of the Wise alone regenerates way more mana than you could spend in the cooldown between Judgements - you don't need Int at all.

This.

Judgements of the Wise basicly turns our mana bar into a Blue Energy bar, it empties and fills like mad. The only issue that some players might have is emptying their mana pool and not keeping enough mana for a Judgement, but honestly that is a l2p issue.

[Maverick494]

This.

Judgements of the Wise basicly turns our mana bar into a Blue Energy bar, it empties and fills like mad. The only issue that some players might have is emptying their mana pool and not keeping enough mana for a Judgement, but honestly that is a l2p issue.

So, despite the wording of judgements of the wise, it is ALWAYS regening the paladin mana + 3 others? If not and it is randomly targeting 3 people in the raid/group there is no way you are going to get a steady mana regen from JoTW. I know we will still have JoW for getting some mana back as well, but that seems like bad thing to rely on for mana regen.

Additionally, I am looking at the fancy HoT attached to our crit heals and thinking wtf. We will have such a tiny mana pool that healing will be even less practical in wrath than it is now.

[Rawberry]

So, despite the wording of judgements of the wise, it is ALWAYS regening the paladin mana + 3 others? If not and it is randomly targeting 3 people in the raid/group there is no way you are going to get a steady mana regen from JoTW. I know we will still have JoW for getting some mana back as well, but that seems like bad thing to rely on for mana regen.

I tested it 3 patches ago, and yes, the Paladin always seemed to be one of the recipients.

Additionally, I am looking at the fancy HoT attached to our crit heals and thinking wtf. We will have such a tiny mana pool that healing will be even less practical in wrath than it is now.

It's the increased spellpower from AP you should be looking at, the HOT is just a bonus.

[findhor]

So, despite the wording of judgements of the wise, it is ALWAYS regening the paladin mana + 3 others? If not and it is randomly targeting 3 people in the raid/group there is no way you are going to get a steady mana regen from JoTW. I know we will still have JoW for getting some mana back as well, but that seems like bad thing to rely on for mana regen.

Additionally, I am looking at the fancy HoT attached to our crit heals and thinking wtf. We will have such a tiny mana pool that healing will be even less practical in wrath than it is now.

The "hot on crit" is just a way to make Holy paladins go take Sheath of Light, and with Conviction applying to spells, or even judgements being castable from 20 yards away, it seems like Holy paladins might want to take Benediction / Imp Judgements / Heart of the Crusader on the way to Sheath of Light

At least I know i'm going to try something like this

[Maverick494]

I tested it 3 patches ago, and yes, the Paladin always seemed to be one of the recipients.

Let's hope then that they don't decide to change it and eff us over.

It's the increased spellpower from AP you should be looking at, the HOT is just a bonus.

Sure that is nice and all, but really they could've just as easily gone the other way and changed all the SD coeff.'s to AP coeff's and tuned them based on that (for instance SoC = (70%*WD)+(AP*10%)).  SOL could then have been a better/different skill like just a straight up HoT that is instant cast + cooldown and somewhere just below druid/priest HoT's in effectiveness.  Hell make it increase int by 20% of your str too.  This would allow for no interruption of DPS abilities, but allow for some offhealing in PvE and PvP.  It would have been still reachable for holy paladins as well.  If there were concern over it scaling with +healing then it could have no +heal benefits or very very low coeff.

I know gob forbid the talented SoC be as good or better DPS than the non-talented SoB/SoM.

[Rawberry]

Sure that is nice and all, but really they could've just as easily gone the other way and changed all the SD coeff.'s to AP coeff's and tuned them based on that (for instance SoC = (70%*WD)+(AP*10%)). SOL could then have been a better/different skill like just a straight up HoT that is instant cast + cooldown and somewhere just below druid/priest HoT's in effectiveness. Hell make it increase int by 20% of your str too. This would allow for no interruption of DPS abilities, but allow for some offhealing in PvE and PvP. It would have been still reachable for holy paladins as well. If there were concern over it scaling with +healing then it could have no +heal benefits or very very low coeff.

I cannot believe you are actually complaining about one of the better Talents in the History of the Paladin class. Unbelievable.

[Maverick494]

I cannot believe you are actually complaining about one of the better Talents in the History of the Paladin class. Unbelievable.

It's not one of the better talents in the history of the class. I say that having played since sept 04. It is a decent talent that could just as easily have been as good or better the way I suggested it. Hell there could even be more and better ways to modify it to be even better.

It's not a terrible talent, but it is short sighted when paired with a low low mana pool of a ret paladin who is going to do so little healing that 1/2 of the talent is basically wasted. that 1/2 could have been used to far better effect if it were the primary effect of the talent paired with more int (aka mana) and a retuning of abilities to be effected by str/AP coeff's. This would easily solve the issues ret paladins had with gear and still allow for a little side of healing. In addition to that if it were a straight up HoT + str > int conversion, and all of our existing abilities scaled off str/AP (which really isn't that hard to change) ret paladins would be much easier to tune at this point than they currently are by scaling with both AP and SD.

[Deleted]

Sorry, FOL spam as retri will be twice effective.

With sheath we'll look at more powerful on-spot healing in pvp and more reliable short heals.

The low mana pool can be regained with 16 seconds (2 judgements, assuming they both hit for 1800, which at the moment is stupidly low amount for a wotlk ret pala, as we seen on the footages.)

If it's not enough, there's divine plea.

And you can just switch to judgement of wisdom if not enough, which scales with AP and spellpower, spellpower that we have through sheath of light.

I hope i've been clear.

Even if i'm not a beta tester.

[Maverick494]

Sorry, FOL spam as retri will be twice effective.

Effective in what capacity? effectively destroying your DPS? sure. Effective in any other way? not so much. Why in the name of zues' butthole would you be spamming any heal?

With sheath we'll look at more powerful on-spot healing in pvp and more reliable short heals.

In what world is this important to a DPS spec? What heal spell do we have that is quick enough to not get us shut down? Flash of lights that take 2.5 seconds (the max it can in the xpac with new spell knockback) is going to be less than effective. I don't know about you, but without any +int where is all this spell crit going to come from? talents? 5%? wow tons of spell crit there, it might make me have 8-10% spell crit. so 10% of the time I can get a HoT that is ok.

The low mana pool can be regained with 16 seconds (2 judgements, assuming they both hit for 1800, which at the moment is stupidly low amount for a wotlk ret pala, as we seen on the footages.)

If it's not enough, there's divine plea.

I forgot about divine plea, mostly because I was thinking it was a talent and not just a skill. even still that takes time not doing anything to use and again effects your DPS output.

And you can just switch to judgement of wisdom if not enough, which scales with AP and spellpower, spellpower that we have through sheath of light.

I hope i've been clear.

Even if i'm not a beta tester.

I don't think I could be more clear, the scaling of judgements with AP and SD is fine because holy and prot will have more SD and ret will have more AP. That just means that they have a problem now because ret paladins have both AP and SD with SOL and thus scale too well atm. The easiest way to fix that would've been easier had they not added SD back to the ret paladin and instead scaled all abilities for them with AP.

[tyger006]

It's not one of the better talents in the history of the class. I say that having played since sept 04. It is a decent talent that could just as easily have been as good or better the way I suggested it. Hell there could even be more and better ways to modify it to be even better.

It's not a terrible talent, but it is short sighted when paired with a low low mana pool of a ret paladin who is going to do so little healing that 1/2 of the talent is basically wasted. that 1/2 could have been used to far better effect if it were the primary effect of the talent paired with more int (aka mana) and a retuning of abilities to be effected by str/AP coeff's. This would easily solve the issues ret paladins had with gear and still allow for a little side of healing. In addition to that if it were a straight up HoT + str > int conversion, and all of our existing abilities scaled off str/AP (which really isn't that hard to change) ret paladins would be much easier to tune at this point than they currently are by scaling with both AP and SD.

WoW Came out in november noob 11/23/04

[Maverick494]

WoW Came out in november noob 11/23/04

Apparently you never heard of beta testers? But you are right it was October, not september of 04.

[wolfpaq777]

Effective in what capacity? effectively destroying your DPS? sure. Effective in any other way? not so much. Why in the name of zues' butthole would you be spamming any heal?

good pvp ret paladins will emergency heal to keep their healer alive. Holy light is not an option, too much cast time & pushback and time for the other team to interrupt you.

[ThePatient]

In what world is this important to a DPS spec? What heal spell do we have that is quick enough to not get us shut down? Flash of lights that take 2.5 seconds (the max it can in the xpac with new spell knockback) is going to be less than effective. I don't know about you, but without any +int where is all this spell crit going to come from? talents? 5%? wow tons of spell crit there, it might make me have 8-10% spell crit. so 10% of the time I can get a HoT that is ok.

Crit rating gives spell and melee crit. If i'm not wrong a ret paladin with lets say 300 crit rating should have (based off current live numbers just using 300 as an example) 30% melee and spell crit approximately.

[Maverick494]

good pvp ret paladins will emergency heal to keep their healer alive. Holy light is not an option, too much cast time & pushback and time for the other team to interrupt you.

good healers hardly need the pathetic amount of healing one flash of light will do for them in PvP. Besides that with your pathetic crit chance the odds are you just wasted mana on a heal of about 1000 HP. 1000 HP is what, 1 non-crit white hit from most classes now...

So you go ahead and believe that a 1000 HP heal is going to save anything, all while effectively making your damage done 0. Flash of light is still a long enough cast time to get locked out too.

I would never say don't heal, but don't act like it is a very very very effective tool when it just isn't. It has times where it pays off, but for the most part it is a wasted cast time compared to doing damage/stun/etc. that allow the real healer to heal themselves.

[lilcasper]

In what world is this important to a DPS spec? What heal spell do we have that is quick enough to not get us shut down? Flash of lights that take 2.5 seconds (the max it can in the xpac with new spell knockback) is going to be less than effective. I don't know about you, but without any +int where is all this spell crit going to come from? talents? 5%? wow tons of spell crit there, it might make me have 8-10% spell crit. so 10% of the time I can get a HoT that is ok.

There is no longer melee and spell crit,
This is my spell crit in my ret gear:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...208_192547.jpg

[lilcasper]

good healers hardly need the pathetic amount of healing one flash of light will do for them in PvP. Besides that with your pathetic crit chance the odds are you just wasted mana on a heal of about 1000 HP. 1000 HP is what, 1 non-crit white hit from most classes now...

So you go ahead and believe that a 1000 HP heal is going to save anything, all while effectively making your damage done 0. Flash of light is still a long enough cast time to get locked out too.

I would never say don't heal, but don't act like it is a very very very effective tool when it just isn't. It has times where it pays off, but for the most part it is a wasted cast time compared to doing damage/stun/etc. that allow the real healer to heal themselves.

with the spell dmg change and BoL change FoL hits for about 1500ish , 1700 with wings and crits for 2kish, 2.2k with wings as well as putting a HoT up.

[Maverick494]

In what world is this important to a DPS spec? What heal spell do we have that is quick enough to not get us shut down? Flash of lights that take 2.5 seconds (the max it can in the xpac with new spell knockback) is going to be less than effective. I don't know about you, but without any +int where is all this spell crit going to come from? talents? 5%? wow tons of spell crit there, it might make me have 8-10% spell crit. so 10% of the time I can get a HoT that is ok.

Crit rating gives spell and melee crit. If i'm not wrong a ret paladin with lets say 300 crit rating should have (based off current live numbers just using 300 as an example) 30% melee and spell crit approximately.

Hmm I must've missed that change when I was reading changes from mmo-champ. If that is true then it will be a bit more of a chance to get the hot, that doesn't make the talent all that much more effective considering the mana avaiable.

It still doesn't change the fact that had SD not been re-intorduced for the ret paladin they would be having far less QQ and an easier time balancing them if they just changed the judgements to apply a AP and SD component that makes it equally as effective for holy/prot and ret. It also doesn't change the fact that mana pools now are between 5.5 and 6K and it seems they are going to be the same or less than that at level 80 in the expansions with all spells getting more expensive to costs (EG. no more R1 SoC).

As long as Judgements of the wise continues to always regen mana to the paladin this will probably be very little of an issue, but it still doesn't make me think that a healing talent in ret the way it currently is, is not a partially wasted talent.