Thread: Pally Weapon...

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  1. #21

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    and ... wtf did I just say ? I said the same thing as you did, and you say I'm wrong lol.

    AND YES U NEED STRENGHT MAYBE. STRENGHT.
    Cause strenght gives u block value. Why are you talking about AP/strenght ??? Why do you have the word "AP" there ? Can u pls tell me ?
    Stop standing in fire...

  2. #22

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafy
    and ... wtf did I just say ? I said the same thing as you did, and you say I'm wrong lol.

    AND YES U NEED STRENGHT MAYBE. STRENGHT.
    Cause strenght gives u block value. Why are you talking about AP/strenght ??? Why do you have the word "AP" there ? Can u pls tell me ?
    Because strength gives AP. Strength itself is useful for block value, but also for the AP it gives. This is why people are saying "OMG WE NEED AP". They (rather obviously, I thought, but apparently not) mean AP in the form of Strength, not straight +AP (with the exception being from a weapon. There seems to be some VERY nice high end weapons with a buttload of straight AP on them, and I certainly wouldn't shy away from those.)

    Edit: My biggest problem with you is that you're saying "OMG WE NEED SPELL DAMAGE! LOTS OF IT! FROM STAMINA AND THEN MORE SPELL DAMAGE!".And then, on top of that, you're berating those who don't agree with you ("little head", etc.) Unfortunately, you're the one who's wrong about this. Except for the case of AoE tanking, you will NO LONGER NEED TO STACK SPELL DAMAGE IN ANY FORM BUT FROM PURE STAMINA. Having 900 spell power like you said is going to be rather useless for anything but mass AoE, since you should be getting all the additional threat you need from, you guessed it, all the strength you have (which, in turn, gives you truckloads of AP.) Using a spell damage weapon will *severely* lower your threat against 1-3 target tanking (IE, any boss encounter, most trash pulls that aren't obvious AoE pulls, etc.)

  3. #23

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Great post mate, i think you made it clear. Well this is why i guess we speak about AP too:S http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53408 check this out.
    YOU FACE NOT MALCHEZAR ALONE, BUT THE LEGIONS I COMMAND!

  4. #24

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafy
    and ... wtf did I just say ? I said the same thing as you did, and you say I'm wrong lol.

    AND YES U NEED STRENGHT MAYBE. STRENGHT.
    Cause strenght gives u block value. Why are you talking about AP/strenght ??? Why do you have the word "AP" there ? Can u pls tell me ?
    Because a lot of your skills are based on weapon damage or Attack Power. Weapon damage is affected by attack power. And a lot of your threat is based on your ability to DPS and all that new good stuff, in wotlk)

    Judge of Wisdom and Light are affected by AP. Most of your seals are affected by weapon damage or AP. Hammer of Righteousness is affected by AP. They're not saying they need AP Over strength(I don't believe). Just pointing out the need for AP in general.

    [90][90][90][85][84][80][80][80][59][70]

  5. #25

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysta
    Because a lot of your skills are based on weapon damage or Attack Power. Weapon damage is affected by attack power. And a lot of your threat is based on your ability to DPS and all that new good stuff, in wotlk)

    Judge of Wisdom and Light are affected by AP. Most of your seals are affected by weapon damage or AP. Hammer of Righteousness is affected by AP. They're not saying they need AP Over strength(I don't believe). Just pointing out the need for AP in general.
    Well said.

    Also of note, albeit a minor note, is the fact that, most notably on single targets, our white DPS should rise enough to even give a slight threat boost. Mind you, I realize it's minor, but next time you're tanking a boss with your measly ~40 dps spell damage mace, take a look at Recount or whatever you may use. Despite a completely crap weapon, you'll still be doing a noticeable amount (albeit still very small) of your overall damage from white damage. With all the changes going on in Wrath and being able to use a high-DPS weapon, you should be able to see a noticeable threat gain just from your weapons DPS.

    Not that white damage is the main reason for getting a slow, hard hitting weapon. But it's an added bonus that isn't mentioned much.

  6. #26

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    And white damage threat can't get mana burned or silenced.

  7. #27

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Nobody saying attack power is a necessity.
    People are just saying that weapon damage obviously scales with attack power, (oudidntkno?)
    and that the 51 pt talent is based on weapon damage. And that obviously plays a small,
    very small, but very real factor.
    Please, quote who posted "YOU NEED ATTACK POWER"

    We're discussing the benefits of a slower weapon, and a higher spell damage weapon.
    Now obviously the weapon posted would be ideal for paladin tanking.
    But will HoTR scale with attack power(strength) AND spellpower? Yes.
    Do you NEED attack power to make it useful? No.

    If you're gonna stroke your e-peen, go e-cum in your e-mouth. Do it.

    Also...engrish?

  8. #28

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Syzycks
    But will HoTR scale with attack power(strength) AND spellpower? Yes.
    Do you NEED attack power to make it useful? No.

    actually HotR does not scale with spellpower.

  9. #29

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Quote Originally Posted by b37x
    And white damage threat can't get mana burned or silenced.
    Also u never gonna hold threat with white dmg ever... But I'd really like to see a fun tanking ability on say a 15sec cd or so which would make us immune for mana burn and silence for a couple of seconds. (Well more against mana burns since silences are usually instants).

    Also I'd love if we would get mana back on say, blocks... would help a lot when soloing content. (As we don't get the shiny mana return abilities of a ret pally, and our ap/spellpower would never reach the hights of say 3k, as a 80 ret pally surely would, so even our JoW would return much less mana than a ret's).

    On another note, for maximum tps on a boss I'd assume you would use something like a HS, judgement, ShoR, consec, HoR, HS ... (8 sec rotation). I don't know the threat mechanics of HoR yet (if the increased threat is a simple multiplier, or a baseline additional threat) but it seems to me that the only move that'd suffer from using a caster weapon is HoR and it only really suffers from it if it's a multiplied threat move. Otherwise SoR, consec, judgement, HS all scale from the extra SP that a caster weapon would have, while from white dps only HoR benefits and nothing else. Granted I dont have solid maths as I havent seen any real numbers about especially HoR mechanics, but that's just my fealing about it. Of course if u need extra avoidance stats from your weapon, well probably u can go with it.
    Correlation does not imply causation.

  10. #30

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Something that isn't immediately obvious through looking at talents and the new skills is that the calculations for damage on many of our spells have changed.

    Many of our skills will NOW scale with both attack power AND spelldamage.

    Ergo, strength and attack power are now very powerful for threat.

  11. #31

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    and my question is: would u use AP over Strenght ?
    I don't think so.
    Stop standing in fire...

  12. #32

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    No, no AP over strength.
    YOU FACE NOT MALCHEZAR ALONE, BUT THE LEGIONS I COMMAND!

  13. #33

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    strenght gives u shit ton of block value in WOTLK. and with the new "shield bash" why wouldn't u use strenght ? -_-
    Stop standing in fire...

  14. #34

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    It's ultimately going to be a question of balance.

    Couple points:
    1) They are not changing the Tier sets. My T6 still has the same stats and abilities it has always had. Nothing I've seen is looking like it's going to make me want to switch till at least 78-80 when we hit the first 10 mans. (just like with BC and T3 sets, when you started replacing it out of Kara and Heroics, sure single peices here and there, but not a lot of switch before then).
    2) It's a question of style and personality. Choose what gear you want, it's a balance between mitigation and aggro generation. Right now with 685 spell dmg (raid buffed), I top out at around 2200-2500 tps tanking illidan (granted demon means I get good threat) and around 3000tps on RoS Phase 3. Early number crunching makes it look like I'll have around 1200 spell power raid buffed. Find me the warlock that can pull aggro off 4-5k tps, especially since they are having salv baked into the class builds now.

    That is not to say with some people, rebuilding their sets for single target tanking by stacking STR, STAM and BV won't work, it will and probably quite well.

    The paladin class is meant to tank both single target and multi-target VERY well.

    Additionally: There are some weapons that are nice, slow and have decent dmg but still come with gobs of stam and spell power. Like this one: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=41384 (And it's a Crafted BoE) Those may be what we pick as our all around tanking weapon.

    Also, most of the abilities that scale with both AP and SPW (spellpower), scale better with SPW.
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=21084 Scales better with spell power completely
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53736 The tic scales better with AP, but the judgment scales better with SPD.
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53595 Would only slightly benefit AP.
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53600 is only modified by SBV.

  15. #35

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafy
    strenght gives u shit ton of block value in WOTLK. and with the new "shield bash" why wouldn't u use strenght ? -_-
    Either someone is talking and I cannot see their posts, or you're an idiot.

    No one is countering your posts, no one from what i've seen has said anything about AP being superior to STR. People are saying that AP as a stat, is good, thus, it's assumed they mean Strength is a very beneficial stat.(That's what i get out of it) People are only seeing whether straight Spell Power(SP) or Str(AP) is better as a threat/damage modifier.

    [90][90][90][85][84][80][80][80][59][70]

  16. #36

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sartuk
    Using a spell damage weapon will *severely* lower your threat against 1-3 target tanking (IE, any boss encounter, most trash pulls that aren't obvious AoE pulls, etc.)
    Actually, no it will not *severely* lower your threat against 1-3 target tanking. Spellpower is still "viable" but not "the best" way to get threat. Spellpower/strength ratio as it regards to tps using the same ilvl gear puts STR slightly ahead. But there is no severe dropoff on spellpower, so that our current spellpower gear is still useful.

    With the change to our threat abilities it will let us seamlessly change out gear as we get similar str pieces, without ever losing a beat.

    In conclusion, spell power won't be bad. Str will just be slightly better. And str will also give block value as well. So don't worry about the short term, your gear will still work, rather well.

    BTW, if you want serious theorycrafting and "educated" replies, ask your question here.... maintankadin.failsafedesign.com

  17. #37

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatheed
    Actually, no it will not *severely* lower your threat against 1-3 target tanking. Spellpower is still "viable" but not "the best" way to get threat. Spellpower/strength ratio as it regards to tps using the same ilvl gear puts STR slightly ahead. But there is no severe dropoff on spellpower, so that our current spellpower gear is still useful.
    Is that still the case when Spellpower has a higher coeficient than AP on the spells that use both? Looking at the iLVL and amounts of AP and spellpower respectively, it looks like they matched the coeficcients on the spells themselves to make them equal.

  18. #38

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    The question is prot warrior weapon, or holy paladin weapon


    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ghtning_03.jpg

    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...atholme_17.jpg


    The prot warrior weapon is higher white DPS, but since prot warriors use fast weapons it's 1.6 speed. The holy paladin weapon on the other hand is slow enough that it's top end damage is actually higher than the warrior weapon.

    Between those two the holy paladin weapon wins on threat by a long shot. (and just like the suneater, I doubt the amount of avoidance on the weapon is worth giving up the potential threat on other weapons)


  19. #39

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    since the seal procs now on every hit i think weapon speed is now a very important value, the faster the weapon the faster 5 stacks , the faster more aggro

  20. #40

    Re: Pally Weapon...

    good point.

    if SoV really is our main seal, fast weapons may be the way to go.

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