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  1. #1

    Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    I really like the new 51 point Prot Talent... But is it going to pull me away from spell power weapons?

    At first glance I thought yes but after doing a little math I started to think otherwise.

    Here is the basics. Said paladin is only swapping his main hand weapon so AP/SP so that outside stats can be removed.

    Test weapons are the best I can find right now:
    Titansteel Guardian
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=41384
    Titansteel Bonecrusher
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=41383

    To make things easy (kind of cheat) I am not going to input crit/exp or the fact that there is a 1 sta difference.

    Titansteel Guardian, 2.5 atk spd, 207avg dmg, 490spell dmg

    Titansteel Bonecrusher, 2.5 atk spd, 359avg dmg, 140atk pwr

    Spells used will be of HotR, Consecration, Judgement and Seal w/ idea of 100% up time vs an single mob. Since SP/AP doesn't effect SotR there is no need to represent it.

    Coefficient Increased Dmg
    SP/AP Gruadian Bonecrusher
    Consecration 4%/4% 19.6 5.6
    HotR Weap DMG*1.2 41.4 71.8

    SoR 10%/5% 19.6 2.8
    JoR 73%/45% 35.77 6.3

    C+HotR+SoR+JoR TPS 116.37 86.5

    SoC/V 3.4%/7% 6.664 3.92
    JoC/V 58%/36% 28.42 5.04

    C+HotR+SoC/V+JoC/V TPS 96.084 86.36

    As you can see the SP weapon leads in TPS over the melee weapon even before adding other spells in the mix.

    Other Spell's Gains:
    Avenger's Shield 7%/7% 34.3 9.8
    Hammer of Wrath 7%/7% 34.3 9.8
    Exorcism 15%/15% 73.5 21
    Holy Wrath 7%/7% 34.3 9.8

    I could be wrong and I realize this is still beta but I think that if they want to ween us off SP weapon HotR is going to need more love.

    Please correct anything I might have done wrong as I know we all make mistakes and I am sorry I am too much of a noob to firgure out how to use tables in fourms =p.

  2. #2

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    It seems like you will be using different weapons for different situations, as the above poster said. You are dumbing down the tanking situation by asking: Which one of these is better. The fact is, if youre a BS pally tank you should make both. In AoE tanking, the 490 spell power will help tremendously for your consecration, but boss tanking you are probably better off with a high dps weapon.

  3. #3

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    The problem with letting go the spelldmg weapons is that we dont use white dmg for threat generation except when we use hor. So the exchange of white dps to spellpower in terms of tps seems more beneficial. What we'd really need is a lowered white dps wep with hefty amounts of str and stam on it. (a bit like fap weapons).
    The most beneficial part of using hor (as I see it) is proccing our seals on multiple targets.
    Correlation does not imply causation.

  4. #4

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    yeah, rolling vengeance on multiple targets + consecrate will be so crazy for aoe threat.

  5. #5

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    Ok I was figuring that the 2 weapon set was going to be the end solution but it would be nice to either just have 1 or the other. Just it doesnt mean too much since i know i will have a SP weapon for my healign set.

  6. #6

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    as far as i can tell, i am leaning on using a spelldamage weapon, im just hoping they have some with a bunch of stam and some defensive stats. i am only lvl 71 atm and starting out with 1100 spelldamage is kinda nuts, but as i replace my gear with the str/stam gear, we will have in wrath, i think we will still want a caster weapon cause the spell damage will drop since here is none on the gear. Plus i like to see the dps caster tears flow when i have the weapon they always wanted ;D

  7. #7

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    Quote Originally Posted by zox
    The problem with letting go the spelldmg weapons is that we dont use white dmg for threat generation except when we use hor. So the exchange of white dps to spellpower in terms of tps seems more beneficial. What we'd really need is a lowered white dps wep with hefty amounts of str and stam on it. (a bit like fap weapons).
    The most beneficial part of using hor (as I see it) is proccing our seals on multiple targets.
    To an extent, your statement about white damage isn't correct. Our white damage isn't going to do anything for our threat that's worth noting, but the stats that impact white damage will be affecting the majority of your DPS.

    You now have the option to use Seal of Blood, which benefits strictly from white damage stats, although from the numbers we're seeing, it's kind of inferior in Wrath.

    Additionally, Blood/Righteousness/Vengeance/Command can all activate on HotR, meaning it gets a few invisible coefficients based on your active seal.

    I know we're strictly talking about a weapon, here, but it's well possible that there wont be tanking gear with spell damage in wrath, so while spell damage might yield better TPS, even with 30% of your stamina being spell damage, you could potentially still have enough AP on the rest of your gear that using an AP/Avoidance weapon is the way to go.

  8. #8

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basutai
    Are these experimental or hypothetical calculations?

    If experimental, I'd try just cataloging them in an excel spreadhseet and getting an average output of, say, 100-1000 cycles. compare results and realize that you make the final call, whatever the rest of us say (including myself)

    If hypothetical, did you include the effects of the Touched by the Light talent? As a holy damage effect, are you absolutely drop-dead do-not-pass-go-do-not-collect-$200 on the dot sure that it doesnt get the effects of spell damage? assemble and carry out experiments based on these observations, doctor.
    These are hypothetical numbers based off the math behind the coefficients in the latest build (8820).

    Touched by Light only adds Spell Power from stam so that doenst help in the testing of weapons unless 1 weapon was stacked in stam while the other had very little, which in this case isnt true.

    Hammer of the Righteous takes weapon damage and converts that to holy. There is no coefficient from ap/sp, there is no talent that increases its dmg.... well, unless you include things that increase total dmg output like 1hand weapon spec.

    BTW I am not sure if some people are misunderstanding my post. I am not saying that our 51 point talent isnt worth getting. I am just saying that in its current state it would not pull me from a spell power weapons like I believe blizzard is intending. Even if it stayed the way it is right now it is still a great talent for tanking and I dont believe any tank should be without.

  9. #9

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    I don't know if blizz is intending to make us get away with us using spellpower weapons. It seems to me they try to let us get away with an avoidance weapon while tanking. For max tps I'd still use a spelldmg weapon but if I really need that extra 1-2% avoidance that a tanking weapon would likely give, well then it's possible to go with it. We always had to make choices between tps and avoidance, and it'll stay that way, but it's nice to see that from mitigation we'll actually get some incredible tps (ShoR).
    Correlation does not imply causation.

  10. #10

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    I think it's a bit too wild of an idea besides we need Shield of the Templar 3/3 it's a must.

    One more thing, why pick reckoning? The fact that if the boss makes a succesful parry might kill us then why give him a proc attack to try again, now that SoV procs with every swing there is not much need for it right?
    YOU FACE NOT MALCHEZAR ALONE, BUT THE LEGIONS I COMMAND!

  11. #11

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    I think Seals of the Pure 5/5 (holy tree) will do more for your TPS than 3/3 Sheath of Light. I am too lazy for math.

  12. #12

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    I personally believe this is the best combination

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...10202155312321

    Gief feedback!
    YOU FACE NOT MALCHEZAR ALONE, BUT THE LEGIONS I COMMAND!

  13. #13

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal
    I personally believe this is the best combination

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...10202155312321

    Gief feedback!
    I probably wouldn't bother speccing Seals of the Pure, and instead putting them into one hand specialization. Other wise it's great.

    My reasoning? 15% damage to some seals and judgements < flat 5% more damage.

    Personally, I may not even use "threat" seals very often. Seal of Light now does Holy damage when judged, and instant attacks and such proc it, so this spell will provide a hefty mitigation with a much smaller tps gap than before.

    I'm still gonna test out the new Seal of Corruption and Martyr, though, since it looks pretty awesome. ;D

  14. #14

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    Vorpal: If it were me, I'd take the 2 points in Divine Guardian and put them in 1-h Spec (mostly because you won't be able to take advantage of DG if you're the tank).

    Then I'd take 2 points out of Toughness and put those in 1-h spec (depends on if you value threat over physical damage mitigation). Lastly, I'd probably take 3 points out of Deflection and put one in 1-h Spec (just to max it out) and the other two would go in Improved Judgments. Again, that is only if you want to max out your TPS at the cost of some melee damage avoidance.

    Reasoning: You can make up for those talent points in Parry / Increased Armor% with better gear. Whereas finding a piece of gear that lowers your Judgment CD by 2 seconds, or increases your damage by 1%... well that kind of gear just isn't available.

    Edit: i geiv link 5/57/9

  15. #15

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    That indeed the best threat generating threat but i don't thing threat is gona be a problem for pallies tanking atm right, it never was ( well it was with casters but now with Shield of Righteousness it will be ok i think).

    Beta tankadins gief opinions!
    YOU FACE NOT MALCHEZAR ALONE, BUT THE LEGIONS I COMMAND!

  16. #16

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    That's just more reason not to get Seals of the Pure lol

  17. #17

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.


  18. #18

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    Ardent Defender out eh? Hmm well i rather pick it up cause i don't thing unyielded faith will be useful at all. Btw if the tankadin addon is working ardent defended has saved me 118 times since i started mt. hyjal.
    YOU FACE NOT MALCHEZAR ALONE, BUT THE LEGIONS I COMMAND!

  19. #19

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    ardent defender is somewhat situational, if you have really good healers you almost never get the benifit from it

  20. #20

    Re: Hammer of the Righteous, conserns math included.

    That is true only if you consider yourself a tank for farmable bosses, in progress runs those talents are there to save the day also they work at a bad day as well. We can't always blame healers.
    YOU FACE NOT MALCHEZAR ALONE, BUT THE LEGIONS I COMMAND!

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