Circle of Healing vs. Flourish

[Karpalo]

Coh = 41 point talent
Flourish = 51 point talent

really dont ever say this one. I can come up with 20 examples about talents that are not balanced around tier between classes.

[Rambobarbq]

if you look at the 51 point of priest you see that they will prevent wipe completely from a tank dying just with that talent..

i predict priest becoming MT healer.

[Xelaeno]

really dont ever say this one. I can come up with 20 examples about talents that are not balanced around tier between classes.

then why should blizz balance this one?

[dionadar]

[...] actually be a effective, strong raid healer

If you are not "effective, strong" right now - maybe, you should think about playing a funny little shaman....

[Karpalo]

then why should blizz balance this one?

They dont but they should come up with decent 51 pointer for priests holy. Skill that prevents wipe but which is on GCD. So if you dont see in future that aint that great.

[Nogi]

also keep in mind druid's now get omen of clarity to work with spells too.

priests have been the top of the healing totem pole for a long time, now that a druid has a more effective raid heal, the priests cry about it.

priests are going to be more direct healers in wotlk from the looks of it. as will shamans. (no higher rank of chain heal)

maybe now i wont be a buffer healer anymore and actually be a effective, strong raid healer

i doubt healing setups will change alot in wotlk, you will always have the priest able to raid heal and MT heal.
if u suck now - you will probably suck in wotlk - has nothing to do with class. yet you still have no chance to know how other classes will heal or how druids will even heal, you will have to wait till wotlk comes out.

atm, flourish does have a high base compared to coh, though i am sure many changes will be made including the mana costs of spells (as was posted on blue post) and much more, i doubt the flourish will stay at that base amount.

[greenstripes]

The numbers do look substantially better for flourish over about every other AoE heal. That is worrisome, but there is a lot to consider in a raiding situation. For example, a druid can cast flourish on a group of 3 players taking damage next to a boss. However, during the 7 second duration, another player could take damage. The flourish healing wont be passed on to them, and casting it again would be a waste. CoH and Chain heal would however pick up the other players when AoE healing. Even counting that, i think this spell is powerful enough to seriously change the druid role in healing, which is not what blizzard wants, so i do hope for at least a slight nerf.

[greenmasheen]

I wonder why noone else has brought up this "issue" yet, especially on the Beta Forums.

At first, here are the Numbers for the LvL 80 Ranks of both spells:

Circle of Healing Rank 7:

Heals up to 5 friendly party or raid members within 15 yards of the target for 684 to 756.
21% of base mana, 40 yd range, Instant cast

Flourish Rank 4:

Heals up to 5 friendly party or raid members within 15 yards of the target for 4410 over 7 sec. The amount healed is applied quickly at first, and slows down as the Flourish reaches its full duration.
32% of base mana, 40 yd range, Instant cast

Not taking any Bonus from Spellpower into Account Flourish already heals for about 6 Times the amount that Circle of Healing does.

That means in order to get the same amount of Healing a Holy Priest would have to spam Circle of Healing 5-6 Times (7.5 to 9 Seconds), putting the Mana cost to at least 3 times as much as that of a single cast of Flourish.

This also means that the Priest is doing nothing else during that time, while the Druid would just cast that one Flourish and could afterwards continue healing the MT.

Of course those numbers are not 100% accurate considering Spellpower Bonuses. But even those would work in favour of the Druid as Circle of Healing only gets 25% of Bonus Spellpower and Flourish as a 7 Second HoT will surely get a much larger Bonus from Spellpower. ( 5 Casts of CoH giving 125% Bonus while a 7 Second HoT will probably have a 100% Bonus ?)

Anyway even if my numbers are a bit off, Flourish still is much more Mana efficient and still gives MORE Healing per Second than pure CoH spam would give. Who in their right mind would use a Priest for Group Heal when there's a Druid around who could do it that much better ?!

from what i have heard, coh will be healing those who need it more. also, coh is instant cast/(instant heal) and has mana reduction talents in the holy tree. flourish is a hot and not an instant heal, also look at the base mana cost for both spells, flourish is 32% while coh is what 20%?

also, just look at what priests are getting in the holy tree... overheal compensation... stop whinning.

[Drlove]

Just replying to the above post about the Pally not tanking a
druid into a heroic in which he tanks 5 mobs.

Obviously I am a druid

I have healed many Pallies in heroics including Ramps, BF Shattered Halls
and have never had any trouble healing in TOL form so to me that comment
is unjustified.

Times have changed. Druids are now one of the best healers in the game
with the drawback of not being able to rez which in WOTLK will change. Some
folks just dont want to acknowledge that

[greenmasheen]

Just replying to the above post about the Pally not tanking a
druid into a heroic in which he tanks 5 mobs.

Obviously I am a druid

I have healed many Pallies in heroics including Ramps, BF Shattered Halls
and have never had any trouble healing in TOL form so to me that comment
is unjustified.

Times have changed. Druids are now one of the best healers in the game
with the drawback of not being able to rez which in WOTLK will change. Some
folks just dont want to acknowledge that

in pvp yes. it is very hard for me to effectively raid heal as a tree druid. keeping hots stacked on 2-3 tanks and then throwing some hots on nearby people i can do as long as im not getting chased or shot at.

[greenstripes]

It's pretty clear both the druid and pally 51 point talents are a direct response to how end game raiding turned out in BC. CoH priests and Shaman healers were THE most important part of the raid, arguably as important as which tanking class you were using. Pallies still got in raids as MT healers, but resto druids were definitely backup healers in the high end game. I'm not saying that there aren't awesome druid or pally healers who could kick ass regardless, i'm just saying that the general trend was towards the two AoE healers.

in pvp yes. it is very hard for me to effectively raid heal as a tree druid. keeping hots stacked on 2-3 tanks and then throwing some hots on nearby people i can do as long as im not getting chased or shot at.

This is how most PvE resto druids felt in BC and SW. The healing classes need to be balanced, and the end game in BC was definitely a blunder. I'm really not surprised that they're overcompensating at this point, i just hope they'll remember to balance this and nourish.

[MortuariusBC]

I wonder why noone else has brought up this "issue" yet, especially on the Beta Forums.

At first, here are the Numbers for the LvL 80 Ranks of both spells:

Circle of Healing Rank 7:

Heals up to 5 friendly party or raid members within 15 yards of the target for 684 to 756.
21% of base mana, 40 yd range, Instant cast

Flourish Rank 4:

Heals up to 5 friendly party or raid members within 15 yards of the target for 4410 over 7 sec. The amount healed is applied quickly at first, and slows down as the Flourish reaches its full duration.
32% of base mana, 40 yd range, Instant cast

Not taking any Bonus from Spellpower into Account Flourish already heals for about 6 Times the amount that Circle of Healing does.

That means in order to get the same amount of Healing a Holy Priest would have to spam Circle of Healing 5-6 Times (7.5 to 9 Seconds), putting the Mana cost to at least 3 times as much as that of a single cast of Flourish.

This also means that the Priest is doing nothing else during that time, while the Druid would just cast that one Flourish and could afterwards continue healing the MT.

Of course those numbers are not 100% accurate considering Spellpower Bonuses. But even those would work in favour of the Druid as Circle of Healing only gets 25% of Bonus Spellpower and Flourish as a 7 Second HoT will surely get a much larger Bonus from Spellpower. ( 5 Casts of CoH giving 125% Bonus while a 7 Second HoT will probably have a 100% Bonus ?)

Anyway even if my numbers are a bit off, Flourish still is much more Mana efficient and still gives MORE Healing per Second than pure CoH spam would give. Who in their right mind would use a Priest for Group Heal when there's a Druid around who could do it that much better ?!

CoH can also crit where flourish cannot
flourish being a HoT will also determine when it can be used. Im sure both will have situations better suited

and as others have said... talents are gonna make a big difference as well

oh yea and btw... its still in beta