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  1. #341

    Re: Patch 3.0.2 - On Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

    Last year they gave paladins to horde and shamans to alliance so they no longer needed to give them identical spells to keep the balance in check. And now they're giving everyone identical buffs that don't stack with eachother.

    Retarded change, seriously. Raiding was fine the way it was, the only thing that needed to be fixed was warlock/shaman stacking and by doing so you would have automatically created room for 2-3 death knights and perhaps a mage to come back into the scene after some buffs. It was really that easy but nooo, apparently every retarded shit spec needs to be viable for raids so let's just dumb everything down because obviously balancing 30 specs is too difficult (that's why you should've stuck with the old system of only having 1-2 viable specs, duh) and make 3-4 classes all do the same.

    For the people who don't understand why exactly this would dumb down the game: previously, you would have to actually use your brain to create a good raid setup. You could raid with a bad setup but it was obviously not a smart thing to do and sometimes even impossible. Now you can just faceroll over your invite macro and it doesn't really matter who you just invited as long as you meet the 2 tanks and 7 healers requirement, because you're gonna get all the buffs anyway.

    Then comes the problem that if you give multiple classes the same buffs, people are going to pick which class of those options does the best DPS, healing or tanking. You really don't achieve anything with this change except for dumbing down the game. Apparently some classes will be tuned down/buffed in performance if they can't compete with the class that does the same buff as them but gives more DPS/healing. So in the end not only are they going to make the buffs identical, but also the DPS performance. GREAT JOB BLIZZARD.

    How to ruin raiding in 3 steps:

    1. Make every spec viable so everybody is 'equal'.
    2. Then make every class provide identical buffs which stack so everybody is 'equal'.
    3. Then match everyones DPS so everybody is 'equal'. (which is going to happen according to that blue post)

    What's next? Make everyone have the same racial abilities so everyone is equal?

    Here's a hint: viable does not mean equal. You can be viable with shit DPS if you provide huge buffs to make up for it (shadowpriest), you can also be viable if your buffs are shit but provide huge DPS (rogue). Unfortunately that apparently requires too much thinking on the player's part so let's just dumb it down to the point where they both provide ok buffs and ok DPS.

  2. #342

    Re: Patch 3.0.2 - On Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

    In BC, many classes were only sought after for their buffs or debuffs and would never have been welcome in a raid had they not had such buffs/debuffs available to counter their dismal raid output. Some may claim this created a balance, that dps classes could be split between two groups: high dps vs raid utility, and that there is strategy involved in raid composition which required a delicate balance between these types of dps. (Similar arguments can be made for healers and tanks.)

    Indeed, this was an added challenge to the game that provided one extra component of "strategy" to the game. But it also pigeonholed raid composition, making class and spec a priority over player skill. And so a player could be denied a raid spot or entrance into a guild because the raid already met its quota on that player's class or because another class was needed which, though perhaps similar to that player's, is one that player could not replace.

    Raid slots should not be given or denied based on a player's class/spec, or based solely on utility or potential dps (potential dps being what a class itself is capable of, without regard for player competence and skill). As long as the necessary buffs are present in a given raid, which any number of players can provide (thus increasing the chance that appropriately skilled and geared players will be available to provide those buffs), raid slots should be given based on a player's skills and competence.

    If implimented correctly, these changes to raid buffs will greatly reduce the importance of raid utility/dps and increase the importance of the competence of individual players when raiding.

    It's hard enough to find competent players for raiding. Why continue to complicate it further by forcing guilds to find competent players of specific classes when competent players of other classes are already available?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurax View Post
    Jesus Christ? I could not follow his radical left-wing path. No, even if I did believe in a personal god, I would not have the guts, the extreme altruism and radical anti-capitalism necessary to call myself a Christian.
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Hyperbole police! We have been alerted to several reports of some suburbian white guys complaining about racism. Ok I am going to give you a warning. You have 60 days to put on your big boy britches and stop being a whiny kid. Seriously. Time to grow up.

  3. #343

    Re: Patch 3.0.2 - On Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek
    I
    If implimented correctly, these changes to raid buffs will greatly reduce the importance of raid utility/dps and increase the importance of the competence of individual players when raiding.

    It's hard enough to find competent players for raiding. Why continue to complicate it further by forcing guilds to find competent players of specific classes when competent players of other classes are already available?
    well, technically, thats true and i really hope they will balance it out, otherwise, it will be just
    " these changes to raid buffs will greatly reduce the importance of raid utility/dps classes and increase the importance of the competence of individual players when raiding , also increase the importance of more pure DPS classes."

  4. #344

    Re: Patch 3.0.2 - On Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking


  5. #345

    Re: Patch 3.0.2 - On Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesane
    Last year they gave paladins to horde and shamans to alliance so they no longer needed to give them identical spells to keep the balance in check. And now they're giving everyone identical buffs that don't stack with eachother.

    Retarded change, seriously. Raiding was fine the way it was, the only thing that needed to be fixed was warlock/shaman stacking and by doing so you would have automatically created room for 2-3 death knights and perhaps a mage to come back into the scene after some buffs. It was really that easy but nooo, apparently every retarded shit spec needs to be viable for raids so let's just dumb everything down because obviously balancing 30 specs is too difficult (that's why you should've stuck with the old system of only having 1-2 viable specs, duh) and make 3-4 classes all do the same.

    For the people who don't understand why exactly this would dumb down the game: previously, you would have to actually use your brain to create a good raid setup. You could raid with a bad setup but it was obviously not a smart thing to do and sometimes even impossible. Now you can just faceroll over your invite macro and it doesn't really matter who you just invited as long as you meet the 2 tanks and 7 healers requirement, because you're gonna get all the buffs anyway.

    Then comes the problem that if you give multiple classes the same buffs, people are going to pick which class of those options does the best DPS, healing or tanking. You really don't achieve anything with this change except for dumbing down the game. Apparently some classes will be tuned down/buffed in performance if they can't compete with the class that does the same buff as them but gives more DPS/healing. So in the end not only are they going to make the buffs identical, but also the DPS performance. GREAT JOB BLIZZARD.

    How to ruin raiding in 3 steps:

    1. Make every spec viable so everybody is 'equal'.
    2. Then make every class provide identical buffs which stack so everybody is 'equal'.
    3. Then match everyones DPS so everybody is 'equal'. (which is going to happen according to that blue post)

    What's next? Make everyone have the same racial abilities so everyone is equal?

    Here's a hint: viable does not mean equal. You can be viable with shit DPS if you provide huge buffs to make up for it (shadowpriest), you can also be viable if your buffs are shit but provide huge DPS (rogue). Unfortunately that apparently requires too much thinking on the player's part so let's just dumb it down to the point where they both provide ok buffs and ok DPS.
    I am sorry that you cannot feel special anymore because of your elitist art of designing raid groups.

    Now let go of your chair, grandpa, and let us move you to another room.

  6. #346

    Re: Patch 3.0.2 - On Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

    Quote Originally Posted by ishootblanks

    ...
    People you have to realize.. if you can roll one class and with a gear change and a respec.. fill 4 different roles.. you should not be able to perform any of those roles better than a class that can only perform one real job.. i.e. rogue.. mage..

    ...
    I just have to.

    Do you understand what are you actually saying? Even when drud spec and gear for certain role they WILL STILL SUCK compared to "specialist class" in terms of effectiveness.

    Druids will never have the versatility of the prime classes in terms of skills, abilities and talents for their intended role, so demanding power to be around equal IS THE ONLY CHOICE to actually be competitive and viable in terms of game performance, be it either PvP (Arena) or PvE (raids not soloing!)

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