Judgement of the Wise changed to a "buff"

[TS Aeonin]

No Blessing of Might either...basically it would get taken off if there is 2 warriors in the raid. even while talented it is 525 attack power which is 25 less attack power than just normal battle shout is up (550) talented commanding shout is 687.5 attack power ie. no point in getting that buff still...unless they plan on changing the base number.

[exphius]

I'm no math expert but i saw this posted on the offical paladin forums and thought to copy it here for others to see. Credit goes to Arrent for it.

BUMP ON THE QUOTE THAT YOU POSTED!!!

"To elaborate on what Tonic posted, here's some numbers regarding our mana consumption at level 80.

5644 base mana, our gear has +0 intellect, so we'll sit around 6500-7000 mana in a raid. Replenishment will restore .5% of your mana every second, so 2.5% of your mana as mp5. You gain 169 mp5 in a raid situation....

Crusader Strike is 219 MP on a 6 second cooldown, so -136.9 mp5
Divine Storm is 878 MP on a 10 second cooldown, so -439.0 mp5
Judgement is 351 MP on a 8 second cooldown, so - 219.4 mp5

A Seal every two minutes at 615 MP, so -25.6 mp5
Avenging Wrath every two minutes at 351 MP, so -14.6

You're looking at an average rotation that requires 835.5mp5 to break even. Factor our the 109 mp5 from BoW, we'll need 726 mp5 to break even. Factor in Consecration and Exorcism because they actually do damage now because of Sheath of Light, but they cost 603.8 and 117 mp5 respectively. Oh sweet! They do damage now, but we can't afford to use em.

So, a heavy rotation will require 1556.3 mp5 to sustain. Blizzard is like, "Hey! All your abilities will scale amazingly! But you won't have the mana for em because we're destroying JotW."

[draiana]

This is going to hurt heaps in every facet of the game for ret pally's. Judgement of the wise, is pretty much our biggest dps increasing talent in extended fights.

[Vertego]

I feel like a part of me has been taken.... Taken savagely against my will while sedated with date rape drugs... behind a Dair Queen... on New years... With my siblings watching...

[exphius]

Heh, blizzard sure knows how to use the nerfbat and boy did they hit ret HARD with this one.
a very dull video, but never the less a good example of blizzard and the nerfbat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGHv4JlE-Hk

but will have to see how it pans out.. i cant fathom them leaving it like this.

[Cosno]

also consider this: wisdom will most likely be on the boss. with wisdom scaling the way it does it returns quite a bit of mana and that on top of this new mana regen buff *should* help with our mana issue.

edit: and with our Jow being superior to prots and holy does that mean we are now the SPs of BC? with this buff equal to a shadow priest and SV hunters in addition to JoW we're providing more mana to the raid (non healers unless they wand) than SPs or SV hunters.

[Vengeful]

Quote from Blue Post :"As Ghostcrawler has been posting recently, we've decided to make a change in the way we allow buffs and debuffs to stack exclusively in a raid."

Maybe it's only for raid and not for pvp.
However, ret pally needs mana back for damage dealt by judgement, because we have +0 intellect on gear.
So, in raid JoTW could give Replenishment, while in all others situations (bg, arena, pve) it should remain as it is now.

[exphius]

also consider this: wisdom will most likely be on the boss. with wisdom scaling the way it does it returns quite a bit of mana and that on top of this new mana regen buff *should* help with our mana issue.

yea that could work and still be very tight. but in pvp, theres not a chance in hell of keeping our mana.

[TS Aeonin]

also consider this: wisdom will most likely be on the boss. with wisdom scaling the way it does it returns quite a bit of mana and that on top of this new mana regen buff *should* help with our mana issue.

edit: and with our Jow being superior to prots and holy does that mean we are now the SPs of BC? with this buff equal to a shadow priest and SV hunters in addition to JoW we're providing more mana to the raid (non healers unless they wand) than SPs or SV hunters.

Yeah, but remember holy paladins will want to judge wisdom to have a decreased mana cost on their spells or seal of light for total healing done while keeping judgement of the pure up--so no there really is no reason to bring a ret paladin into the raid if you have a moonkin and elemental shaman and at least 2 other mana returning classes. Crusader strike is just an extra damage skill that can proc seals, it does nothing else.

[Cosno]

Yeah, but remember holy paladins will want to judge wisdom to have a decreased mana cost on their spells or seal of light for total healing done while keeping judgement of the pure up--so no there really is no reason to bring a ret paladin into the raid if you have a moonkin and elemental shaman and at least 2 other mana returning classes. Crusader strike is just an extra damage skill that can proc seals, it does nothing else.

except the holy paladin can judge light and the ret paladin can judge wisdom which is going to be superior to the holy paladins in mana return, i really dont see why you WOULDNT want to bring a ret paladin with these changes.

[exphius]

except the holy paladin can judge light and the ret paladin can judge wisdom which is going to be superior to the holy paladins in mana return, i really dont see why you WOULDNT want to bring a ret paladin with these changes.

are you kidding? have you really looked into all the facts of ret skills/base mana/nerf to jotw.

Rethink what you have just typed.. imo rethink you life as well >

[Cosno]

are you kidding? have you really looked into all the facts of ret skills/base mana/nerf to jotw.

Rethink what you have just typed.. imo rethink you life as well >

ya i have and being in the beta i think its going to be fine.

[exphius]

ya i have and being in the beta i think its going to be fine.

yea the nerf to jotw hasn't been put into the beta yet. so as it is now IS fine in all honesty.

[milkshake619]

from the beta forums:
yes this has been posted before, but obviously people are still debating if the .5% mana buff will be sufficient

"To elaborate on what Tonic posted, here's some numbers regarding our mana consumption at level 80.

5644 base mana, our gear has +0 intellect, so we'll sit around 6500-7000 mana in a raid. Replenishment will restore .5% of your mana every second, so 2.5% of your mana as mp5. You gain 169 mp5 in a raid situation....

Crusader Strike is 219 MP on a 6 second cooldown, so -136.9 mp5
Divine Storm is 878 MP on a 10 second cooldown, so -439.0 mp5
Judgement is 351 MP on a 8 second cooldown, so - 219.4 mp5

A Seal every two minutes at 615 MP, so -25.6 mp5
Avenging Wrath every two minutes at 351 MP, so -14.6

You're looking at an average rotation that requires 835.5mp5 to break even. Factor our the 109 mp5 from BoW, we'll need 726 mp5 to break even. Factor in Consecration and Exorcism because they actually do damage now because of Sheath of Light, but they cost 603.8 and 117 mp5 respectively. Oh sweet! They do damage now, but we can't afford to use em.

So, a heavy rotation will require 1556.3 mp5 to sustain. Blizzard is like, "Hey! All your abilities will scale amazingly! But you won't have the mana for em because we're destroying JotW."



TLR - It's not a good change for PvE Retribution Paladins.



For PvP, it's even worse. You can't downrank consecrate to find sheathies, so you have to blow 966 mana for it. Then throw in when you want to offheal (because our heals are actually good now), doubt you'll be able to sustain your mana after that. A "slow-and-steady" mana regeneration style is HORRID for us because we use mana in huge bursts. Our only method of "active" regeneration is Divine Plea, which is quite lackluster in level 80 PvP gear. 2722 MP from Divine Plea (assuming we can channel the entire thing)... so we can cast one Holy Light and one Divine Storm... awesome. "

https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/t...65280&sid=2000

[Rawberry]

Instead of pissing and whining on the forums you know what we could also do? We could wait and see what happens with Judgements of the Wise.

I'm quite convinced that Blizzard is not deluded enough to think that a mana regeneration of 0.5% per second will be enough to keep us going. So could the Paladin community please, for once just show some restrain and have some patience?

[Nazumi]

Rawberry i agree. Let's just wait until something is confirmed.

[milkshake619]

i salute your patience rawberry.  but on the other hand, ive been a paladin since classic beta and have too often seen shit like this go through.  and ive spent the last 2 weeks leveling a new paladin googleyed over the new changes to the class.  ive championed and petitioned for similar changes to the whole combat system as they have made notion of changing to since they asked for input when they made the paladin revamp in 1.09.  and im sure as hell gonna be pissed off if the inherent problems of the class's mana consumption arent dealt with thus making my time investment all for naught.

ive also been waiting and hoping that the actual change is not as described by the blue, but on the other hand, the way it was worded was just a slap in the face. and a slap in the face begets a punch to the face.

[Tigercat]

Except Blizzard owns every little scrap of work you've put into your paladin(s), and every other character you have in wow. They can make it like you never even played with the flip of a switch.

Punch that

[milkshake619]

warhammer.

punched.

[Menergy]

yea the nerf to jotw hasn't been put into the beta yet. so as it is now IS fine in all honesty.

Accually, in beta right now, the entire judgement system is broken, they dodnt do damage and dont place debuffs. Its a bug but just letting you know.