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  1. #1

    moonkin itemization in beta

    I was trying to figure how the gear will be and i noticed that somethimes the balance is the same resto piece of armor converting the spirit into crit with the ratio of 1:1
    wouldnt be better to include that switching of stat into a "deep enough" talent to let us use the same gear, wasting less loot?
    Sugestions?
    maybe a beta user if think im not totally mad could forward on beta forums..

  2. #2

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    only if eleshaman gets mp5 > crit talent deep in the ele tree(since mail doesnt have spirit)



    anyway, yea, that could be somehow good, but prolly not 1:1, imo more like 7:10 or 3:5 crit:spirit


  3. #3

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    actually btw the ratio seems 1:1
    LK Honor 1 Druid Healer Belt
    Binds when picked up
    Waist Leather
    317 Armor
    +44 Intellect
    +36 Spirit
    +66 Stamina
    Blue Socket
    Socket Bonus: +5 Spell Power
    Durability 40 / 40
    Classes: Rogue, Druid
    Requires Level 80
    Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 44.


    LK Honor 1 Druid Nuker Belt
    Binds when picked up
    Waist Leather
    317 Armor
    +44 Intellect
    +66 Stamina
    Blue Socket
    Socket Bonus: +5 Spell Power
    Durability 40 / 40
    Classes: Rogue, Druid
    Requires Level 80
    Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 36.
    Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 44.


    have same value of spirit and crit rating..

  4. #4

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    well, if u want convert spirit to crit, meaning it works like u trade spirit for crit, then NP, but why? so u can collect just one set and respecc and had same gear?
    if u want just add that crit, i say NO to 1:1 conversion, u dont need it, same like eleshamans dont neep mp5 > crit from resto gear, besides, that way, there would be no moonkin gear and no moonkin bonuses, right? or next thing will be, that one gear will have 2 bonuses where all sets have only 1?

    free stat aint good thing imo

  5. #5

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Yumeth
    have same value of spirit and crit rating..
    Please think before you write. Thank you.

    Balance druids don't get a negligible benefit from spirit, they can in fact easily spec to get almost as much mana regen from spirit as resto druids.

    If spirit would convert into crit rating on a 1/1 scale, crit rating would be inferior in all ways to spirit. Why should that happen?

    In addition, spirit scales with BoK and Imp. Divine Spirit so with buffs, spirit would be vastly superior to crit rating even disregarding the regen effect of spirit. And that is actually its primary effect.

  6. #6

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    what the point of your post? i just saw that the few items that there are on the wotlk dbs for balance druids have as crit rating the same or almost value as resto items have in the spirit stats, from that the question : if you (blizzard) are making that easy equation spirit -> critical rating why dont simply put that morphing into a deep balance talent to use the same gear for balance and restos? I think that thing is what they though before they made the merge of healing and damage power into spell power stat

  7. #7

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    did u give us one good reason why spirit should convert to crit rating? all i got from your topic is "i want free crit on top of good manaregen from spirit"

    what about opposite direction? critrating converted to spirit, 1:1, deep resto tree.. would you consider that fair to moonkins, that restos will roll on that gear and have larger benefit from it than you from supposedly YOUR gear?

  8. #8

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    explaining better : i dont want it to be
    but if they merged healing and magical damage power into a stat to let resto e balance share same gear, what's the point of balance still need crit rating and restos need spirit? make 1 stat and change the use of it deep into the trees.

  9. #9

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Yumeth
    actually btw the ratio seems 1:1

    have same value of spirit and crit rating..
    Indeed. In terms of item budget, 1 rating point (any kind of rating) costs exactly the same as 1 stat point (strength, agility, intellect or spirit- stamina is cheaper).

  10. #10

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Taznak
    Indeed. In terms of item budget, 1 rating point (any kind of rating) costs exactly the same as 1 stat point (strength, agility, intellect or spirit- stamina is cheaper).

    sucks even more now since spirit no longer boosts tree of life aura.... they changed it to a flat 3% increased healing to raid

  11. #11

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Yumeth
    but if they merged healing and magical damage power into a stat to let resto e balance share same gear, what's the point of balance still need crit rating and restos need spirit?
    Moonkins still need hit too that resto don't need. Should spirit also convert to +hit ?
    The point is not to make best resto gear be best moonkin gear, it's to have moonkin or resto gear be an acceptable replacement until you get the gear for your own spec.

  12. #12

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Yumeth
    what the point of your post?
    To prove that you are wrong.

    Stat X can't be converted into an equivalent item value amount of stat Y without causing imbalance, unless one of them is a very unsignificant stat. Neither crit rating nor spirit are unsignificant for moonkins.

  13. #13

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    Tbh i feel that this spirit=crit rat is fine for moonkins, it gives a choice for us to balance our stats. Will u be a more crit orientated moonkin (better for pvp and 5mans maybe) with full crit gear? or a more mana durable moonkin with slightly less crit (better for raiding and avoiding aggro)? I think this holds true as we STILL have no aggro dumping spell after the last update and our dps output has been improved (through genesis, N's splendor and IIS).

    Anyway, even with wearing say, half 'resto spirit gear', u could still gem for crit and have enough crit rating for whateva ur doing. However having sed that, i'm more worried about hit rating on the gears...but maybe we'll see much more of them when approaching/reached lvl 80.

  14. #14

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    since spirit and crit are same in terms of budget, u wouldnt have less crit, u would simply have same crit on top with insane spirit

  15. #15

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    did u give us one good reason why spirit should convert to crit rating?
    The main reason people are suggesting something like this is because balance druids don't get any benefit from spirit (a stat that they'll inevitably get due to gear homogenization) unless they go 13 points deep into resto, which doesn't give us many spec options.
    Another suggestion is making intensity more accessible by moving it to tier 2. This would let PvE balance druids just take 5/5 furor and 3/3 intensity, making NSS and MSS completly optional.

  16. #16

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    thats not true

    homogenization? yes, BUT u dont have to get spirit gear, there is and will be planty of crit/haste gear without spirit, like
    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...atholme_12.jpg
    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...atholme_04.jpg
    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...eoculus_06.jpg
    http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...innacle_14.jpg

    what homogenization means, that u can take spirit gear as a substitude till u find something better, but it wont be complete lackluster
    just because there is spirit gear doesnt mean u have to use it

    also, u crying about speccing 13 points into another tree? eleshamans have only 2 options, spec 20 into resto or 28 into enha to get synergies everything else is just not getting synergies and puting talentpoints into all these medicore talents, go figure, 13 points aint that much
    and i bet 2 months after LK release, moonkins will be crying "we dont have any spirit on our gear, spiritregen talent from resto aint doing enough for us"

  17. #17

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz
    thats not true

    homogenization? yes, BUT u dont have to get spirit gear, there is and will be planty of crit/haste gear without spirit, like
    If we stack crit and haste without a lick of spirit we'll be going oom in raids incredibly fast. Also, most of our raiding gear will have spirit, it's a required stat for balance druids, linking blue pre-raiding gear that's itemized for leveling and 5-mans is just stupid. No raiding balance druid will skip spirit in their gear, doing so will give them zero sustainability in a raid.
    what homogenization means, that u can take spirit gear as a substitude till u find something better, but it wont be complete lackluster
    No. We can't raid without spirit, period. They have to either, make spirit more useful to us, intensity more accessible, or buff dreamstate (and all similar talents for other classes).
    just because there is spirit gear doesnt mean u have to use it
    Wrong. Balance druids go oom without spirit in a raid enviroment. Try sustaining your mana in a raid as an ele shaman with under 10% crit and no water shield.

    also, u crying about speccing 13 points into another tree?
    I don't know, am I? can you re-read my post? I'm merely explaining why people are suggesting a change like that, aswell as giving another option that will serve a similar purpose.
    eleshamans have only 2 options, spec 20 into resto or 28 into enha to get synergies everything else is just not getting synergies and puting talentpoints into all these medicore talents, go figure, 13 points aint that much
    Whoa, I lol'd.
    I'm pretty sure you are a troll, nobody is this stupid, but I'll bite.
    Elemental shamans don't have to go 20 or 28 points into the other trees to get useful talents, Ancestral knowledge, improved shields and enhancing totems are all pretty useful for a PvE elemental shaman, yet, they are optional.

    They don't have to go out of their own tree to be able to sustain their mana. Water shield is baseline, Elemental focus is in the elemental tree.
    I'll try to explain this to you in a way you would understand, since you are a clueless shaman trolling these forums out of ignorance.
    Imagine you lose Elemental focus, now your crit stops giving you dps and mana sustainability, you start going oom every fight, so you point this out to the developers. They add a 3 point talent in tier 3 resto to address this issue, let's say this talent makes you scale with a stat that wouldn't do anything for you otherwise. Now imagine 80% of your raiding gear will have some of this stat, because it asumes you'll be getting this talent for raiding, because you go oom without it.

    Now, does this give you more or less spec options?

  18. #18

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz


    also, u crying about speccing 13 points into another tree? eleshamans have only 2 options, spec 20 into resto or 28 into enha to get synergies everything else is just not getting synergies and puting talentpoints into all these medicore talents, go figure, 13 points aint that much
    and i bet 2 months after LK release, moonkins will be crying "we dont have any spirit on our gear, spiritregen talent from resto aint doing enough for us"
    You're an idiot. It's pretty obvious Blizzard should not have put Tidal Mastery so deep into the Restoration tree. There's a possibility that maybe, just maybe, they didn't stick it there for Ele Shamans to pick up or they're trying to establish a hybrid build for a hybrid which would be horribly redundant.

    As for your comment about speccing 28 into enh, it seems that talent was meant for only enh shamans not for ele, or are you just too dumb to realize that?

    In terms of us putting 13 points into Restoration, we do it because the Balance equivalent of Intensity is sub-par which makes little to no sense considering that Balance druids have always had mana regeneration issues. So there's a reason for it, numbnuts, but you've never played a Moonkin and obviously can't relate to the mana regen issues.

  19. #19

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    Quote Originally Posted by PaleFolklore
    If we stack crit and haste without a lick of spirit we'll be going oom in raids incredibly fast. Also, most of our raiding gear will have spirit, it's a required stat for balance druids, linking blue pre-raiding gear that's itemized for leveling and 5-mans is just stupid. No raiding balance druid will skip spirit in their gear, doing so will give them zero sustainability in a raid.No. We can't raid without spirit, period. They have to either, make spirit more useful to us, intensity more accessible, or buff dreamstate (and all similar talents for other classes).Wrong. Balance druids go oom without spirit in a raid enviroment. Try sustaining your mana in a raid as an ele shaman with under 10% crit and no water shield.
    I don't know, am I? can you re-read my post? I'm merely explaining why people are suggesting a change like that, aswell as giving another option that will serve a similar purpose.Whoa, I lol'd.
    I'm pretty sure you are a troll, nobody is this stupid, but I'll bite.
    Elemental shamans don't have to go 20 or 28 points into the other trees to get useful talents, Ancestral knowledge, improved shields and enhancing totems are all pretty useful for a PvE elemental shaman, yet, they are optional.

    They don't have to go out of their own tree to be able to sustain their mana. Water shield is baseline, Elemental focus is in the elemental tree.
    I'll try to explain this to you in a way you would understand, since you are a clueless shaman trolling these forums out of ignorance.
    Imagine you lose Elemental focus, now your crit stops giving you dps and mana sustainability, you start going oom every fight, so you point this out to the developers. They add a 3 point talent in tier 3 resto to address this issue, let's say this talent makes you scale with a stat that wouldn't do anything for you otherwise. Now imagine 80% of your raiding gear will have some of this stat, because it asumes you'll be getting this talent for raiding, because you go oom without it.

    Now, does this give you more or less spec options?
    eleshaman goes oom even with mp5 and WS, only chance he is not, is with SP in group, period

    AK is pretty decent talent, enhancing totems is crap until it improves ToW also, imp shields.. well it doesnt improve mp5, only charges procs, one of the medicore talents. hardly can outweight tidal mastery

    and in temrs of minmaxing pve build, shaman WILL have to spec either way, yea MQ should be theoretically enha talent, but since it will be one of the best ele talents at early 80s, its kinda ridiculous isnt it? bar that and tidal mastery, there are simply no synergy talents like MSS, truth is, we dont do it for manaregen, but for competitive dmg, what good is about AK, imp shields and whatnot, if my dmg is not competitive?, ye i can specc like 56/8/7, but u know what? my dmg will be alot worse, simply not competitive, why do u think ppl are going for 51/20 or 52/19? for no reason? no, for they very reason of competitive dmg. why? because we dont have enough dmg talents in main tree, thats it, we can, with 52 points get all dmg talents, where we will be missing points is in manaregen, range, pvp talents, simply we didnt got the chance to usefully spend more points in ele tree for pve without sacrificing either of the only synergy from resto, because there are none that could outweight it



    Quote Originally Posted by Lowestofthekeys

    As for your comment about speccing 28 into enh, it seems that talent was meant for only enh shamans not for ele, or are you just too dumb to realize that?
    are you too domb to realize its one of the best talents for elemental at early 80s raiding? if its improvement over whatever is in ele tree, then why shouldnt ppl to spec for that? because its deeper in another tree? sheesh

    also balance equivalent of intensity (namely dreamstate) is very same as for eleshammy, granted, we have EF for manaregen, but seriously, u have innervate also, sure, it can be used on other ppl, and EF is not "i never go oom" talent, shadowpriest is the key for keeping mana, do u have any idea how extremely manadraining it is to keep hasted 4/1 rotations? even with 40% crit, u would go oom in about minute and half

    and btw i have druid, tho not moonkin i admit, i always was tank with him, since i didnt really wanted second hybrid spellcaster



    simply put, what u are proposing here, is "so, we cnat get use out of stat until we spec for it, so lets give us several hundreds of critrating more frmo that stat, so we can spec for intensity and have both spiritmanareg and incredible boost from spi > crit" what a shocker,mages have to specc for manaregen 18 points into arcane and evocate is not spirit based anymore, so fires and frosts should get talent for what? covert spirit into haste?

  20. #20

    Re: moonkin itemization in beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz
    [...] we dont have enough dmg talents in main tree, thats it, we can, with 52 points get all dmg talents [...]
    That alone is enough to make any further direct comparison futile. Moonkins could spend almost all of their points into balance and get damage relevant use from it. The tree is helplessly too bloated, and therefore it is a mistake to force moonkins that deep into resto to get talents that are mandatory for any serious sustainability. If we could get anything there is from 52 points in balance, no one would complain about the need to skill into another tree that far.


    Regarding spirit/crit: As for now, spirit is a neccessety for a raiding moonkin, because its own manareg talent is amazingly inferior. So the actual problem is NOT that there will be spirit on our gear, but it would be a problem if there was no options for getting enough +hit and a little crit at the same time, and still manage to scale appropietly well, not falling too much behind other DDs the better gear gets.
    As a moonkin I still would want some few points of spirit in my gear even if it did not to anything else than manareg, but only if I still have to pick up Intensity instead of Dreamstate, and most importantly, will be competetive to all other DDs. I am pretty sure that raiding gear will also look quite different from that we see now. It will probably feature a wider set of different stats, so that there could be gear with spi/hit/crit/sp/haste in any combination on our gear - but we will for sure NOT share complete sets of gear with a resto. I imagine that some stuff will be viable for both, but not on all slots at the same time, and these will then tell the difference. (I am however a little concerned, that we could get a hard time obtaining enough hit to hit the cap. I hope there will be enough options, if not I'll be in for spending my DKP on cloth again, and pissing every mage/lock off ^^)

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