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  1. #61

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Moar Pew Pew
    To Ashton,

    Epic sig. XD

    Anyway, just because it's a PvE game doesnt mean there shouldnt be PvP.
    Thank you.

    You right there should be PvP, but the game should ultimately be balanced around PvE not Arena.

  2. #62

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    No, no it doesn't, but it means you *can not* expect Blizzard to balance the game *around* PvP, if you want a game balanced around PvP, you need to look elsewhere, WoW is not the game for this. (Yet)

    WoW is balanced around PvE, and that means, that some classes, some specs will always be *less* than others in some PvP situations, simply because of how they have chosen to prioritize Balancing. *However* their focus is moving away from Purely a PvE focus, however, I do not *ever* think PvP will be their main Balancing Focus. That is what WAR is for

  3. #63

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton
    Who gives a shit about Arena. WoW was made a PvE game. If you want PvP, go play counterstrike.
    Yeah, and that is why Blizzard is organizing offical E-Sport Arena games these days, because World of Warcraft is a strictly PVE game.


    [size=14pt]Read the: Paladin - Frequently Asked Questions[/size]

  4. #64

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    That doesn't mean that the games focus will ever be PvP Balance Rawberry, Sorry

  5. #65

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    However, pvp balance is needed anyway.

  6. #66

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawberry
    Aye, and thats why Blizzard is organizing official Arena games.
    I'm not sure the extent of your WoW knowledge is, but PvP was PATCHED into the game. PvE was what the game was made for.

  7. #67

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton
    I'm not sure the extent of your WoW knowledge is, but PvP was PATCHED into the game. PvE was what the game was made for.
    And?

    What does that have to do with the game as it is now?


    [size=14pt]Read the: Paladin - Frequently Asked Questions[/size]

  8. #68

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    I think the point he's trying to make is that since the game was created for PvE originally, that is and should be its main focus. In cases where you have a choice between balancing around PvE and balancing around PvP, the former should always win out.. and I absolutely agree. I've never been able to justify, from a role-playing standpoint, why these 'heroes' should go waste time fighting in arenas when the likes of the Burning Legion and the Lich King are still very much at large.

    And if your response is "lolore" or any such, I suggest you stop playing an MMORPG. Go play Counterstrike, or go play Warhammer where the PvP is absolutely justified.

    Not that I necessarily think Judgments of the Wise is good as it is now, but I did run Nexus the other day with a ret pally and I don't remember him having any mana issues. That doesn't mean it's perfect of course, but it might not be as bad as everyone assumes.

  9. #69

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Actually pvp in wow does exist. Lots of people love it. I love it too. We want to play pvp in wow, not in other game and we need same attention than you pvers.

  10. #70

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    After a few of these posts have stroked my epeen a bit, I've got some more to say:

    Basu makes a very valid point, while we might theoretically never run OOM with the old JotW, what we can do in the 8 second span between Judgements is extremely limited, we can't Consecrate, CS, DS, and cast a heal/buff, even if it weren't for the obvious GCD usage.

    So maybe building us around a blue energy bar is fine, I'd have to see some PvP/Raid examples of this in action.

    Moving on: Dont forget to keep griping, we know we have to be patient with our fixes, but I'm also a little afraid that Blizzard might let this one 'slip their mind', so we have to keep up with it (Why am I posting on MMO, and not the official forums again?)

    Savvy?

  11. #71

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42
    I think the point he's trying to make is that since the game was created for PvE originally, that is and should be its main focus. In cases where you have a choice between balancing around PvE and balancing around PvP, the former should always win out.. and I absolutely agree. I've never been able to justify, from a role-playing standpoint, why these 'heroes' should go waste time fighting in arenas when the likes of the Burning Legion and the Lich King are still very much at large.

    And if your response is "lolore" or any such, I suggest you stop playing an MMORPG. Go play Counterstrike, or go play Warhammer where the PvP is absolutely justified.

    Not that I necessarily think Judgments of the Wise is good as it is now, but I did run Nexus the other day with a ret pally and I don't remember him having any mana issues. That doesn't mean it's perfect of course, but it might not be as bad as everyone assumes.
    and i believe what Rawrberry is trying to say is that, regardless of the fact that WoW originally was almost entirely PvE oriented, blizzard understood that people wish to pvp and throughout the development of the game have been more than willing to cater to this crowd and add pvp content into this game.

    and while some are saying "wow is a pve game, go play counterstike if you dont like it"... the hard fact is, since arenas were brought into the game, and pvp gear was made available more readily through honor; more people on more servers took to arenas and pvp for their gear. and in fact, if you look at armory profiles, it will reflect this trend, as now the majority of active profiles have more pvp aquired gear than people do from any real source of pve, not only just endgame raid content. (think back to what happened when 2.0 and the pvp change came out, everyone stopped raiding and the majority of people started grinding bg's for their HWL/GM weapons and gear)
    note: and im not saying that people play pvp more b/c they like it, but more (although i loathe pve and pvp b/c i like to) its more along the lines of people pvp because of several benefits:
    1. avoiding long, hard, and inconvenient raid schedules in order to progress through content and achieve gear.
    2. avoiding having to fight over loot of use some sort of dkp system to get their gear. it's all on their own shoulders.
    3. as far as gearing up is concerned, why start with 70 5 mans and then kara and then ssc/tk for gear when you can cut to the front of the line by spending some time in a BG?

    thusly, WoW was once a pve game, that has evolved into a PvP and PvE game that allows for both play types to coexist together. and also note, that this being the case, it requires blizzard to balance the game around both types of play.

    and finally, judgements of the wise in it's current state is broken for BOTH pve and pvp. no matter your opinion, the math and testing has already shown this to be true, it cannot be refuted, until the talent is changed (if it is going to be).

  12. #72

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton
    I'm not sure the extent of your WoW knowledge is, but PvP was PATCHED into the game. PvE was what the game was made for.
    I'm not sure about the extent of your WoW knowledge, but nearly 85% of game content was PATCHED into the game as of now. Using your logic, we can not expect our characters to be proper balanced for WotlK content simply because the game was balanced for the original content in the first place. I do not want to argue, but things change... We have siege PvP incoming, PvP itemization, online PvP tournaments, LAN PvP torunaments and like it or not, PvP has become even with PvE. Thus PvPers expect developers to take care about PvP class balance. And they have the right to do so.

  13. #73

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    yes ill admit, pvp in wow does exist, its just a shame i feel at times the PvE suffers as a result, i mean if it wasnt for PvP, there would be a lot of classes that would still have skills and spells that worked fine in PvE, but because of these complaints, there had to be balance in that, which reduced them and perhaps made them a little bitter and targeted out as a individual or a group of players?

    now thats my personal opinion, its probably flawed but thats what i think.

    Back to the subject, so JotW has been nerfed in terms of mana regeneration. Now i think what Blizzard are trying to do, is fiddle about with numbers so that paladins have to be more mana efficient and not just go full attack and press every available button right off because they have an infinite blue bar underneath their health. What theyre trying to accomplish is a viable dps class that has to keep a steady damage output because if they go too far, then they will suffer as a result when they lack mana to do specific skills, not to mention take aggro if they swing too much right off.

    Unfortunately with all the complaints it seems that maybe they reduced the numbers a little too far, now complaining like kids i dont think is going to boost anyones opinions on the class if we all act so stupidly. It's still only the beta, and im sure Blizz are back with the numbers now. Instead of titling the post so negatively and angrily, why not just discuss it in an adult way?

    I think for now, just keep working on how to make yourself more efficient while using JotW, unfortunately, yeah a lot of you think its broken but youre just going to have to live with it im afraid, and im sure if you just be patient something good might come our way ^_^

    ~Barky~
    Raining Pandarens because of the bouncy racial?
    Quote Originally Posted by rokatoro View Post
    Some Might say it was... (•_•).....( •_•)>⌐■-■....(⌐■_■) A heavy Rain.
    I'm so sorry ;_;

  14. #74

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    see those kind of things are exactly what im going on about, look yes theres a certain skill that isnt as good as it was, but acting like that shows that we're all immature about it, if we discuss it like adults im sure we'd get more of a reaction than all these people who are just making mountains out of molehills
    Raining Pandarens because of the bouncy racial?
    Quote Originally Posted by rokatoro View Post
    Some Might say it was... (•_•).....( •_•)>⌐■-■....(⌐■_■) A heavy Rain.
    I'm so sorry ;_;

  15. #75

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Barky
    Back to the subject, so JotW has been nerfed in terms of mana regeneration. Now i think what Blizzard are trying to do, is fiddle about with numbers so that paladins have to be more mana efficient and not just go full attack and press every available button right off because they have an infinite blue bar underneath their health. What theyre trying to accomplish is a viable dps class that has to keep a steady damage output because if they go too far, then they will suffer as a result when they lack mana to do specific skills, not to mention take aggro if they swing too much right off.
    ~Barky~
    What needed to be done: appropriately tune ret paladin dps so that it was comparable to other dps classes so that when in pve raid situations, a retadin as a dpser was just as viable an option as a mage or rogue or such.  so that the difference between the two was only the buff utility that was brought to raid.  then once the damage was appropriately scaled, then scale the mana regeneration to an appropriate level that would either allow the retadin to maintain a decent dps rotation indefinitely, or to go oom after a very long time.  and then come up with a solution to the mana issue for ret that works for both their outlook on non-stacking raid buffs as well as the paladins mana situation in a fashion that is amenable to both the paladin players and developers.
               why?   if the retadin is supposed to be a mana battery, it makes no sense for the mana battery to be going oom themselves, and especially at the rate that jotw is currently allowing.  it is not yet understood the direction the developers wish the paladin mana system to go.  the blue rage bar concept was widely liked because it fit the new itemization of the spec nicely, fit the new role of the class nicely, and also allowed the class to finally become the "solo/grinding" spec that it was touted by blizzard after the last blizzcon.  but does blizzard want retadins to go oom? how fast? lots of questions still unanswered.  what about an average dps rotation being indefinite, but then when other abilities are used for a burn dps rotation, the mana will drop and take some time to recover?

    What needs to be done:
    First of all, blizzard devs. need to step forward and tell their beta community where they want the mana issue to be, so they can tap into the brainpower of the beta testers for some suggestions on what can be done to solve the issue.
    secondly, the developers need to sit down and really think about the change.  they should have done this before implementing it in the case of paladins.  then work with the beta development community to find an appropriate solution for the issues of the class.

    people are angry b/c the jotw current solution was a quick fix, pulled out of their ass and slapped into the game type change w/ little or no forethought about the consequences of such.  and as we can see, that change completely ruined the ret-paladin spec altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barky
    see those kind of things are exactly what im going on about, look yes theres a certain skill that isnt as good as it was, but acting like that shows that we're all immature about it, if we discuss it like adults im sure we'd get more of a reaction than all these people who are just making mountains out of molehills
    and it's obvious you dont play a paladin, or havn't for very long. with the new retgear itemization and change to jotw, a sustainable mana source is imperative to class mechanics and pve and pvp viability. so, no, noone here or anywhere is making mountains out of molehills. that is because this change IS NOT A MOLEHILL, PERIOD.

  16. #76

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton
    I'm not sure the extent of your WoW knowledge is, but PvP was PATCHED into the game. PvE was what the game was made for.
    You must have never played the game pre bc?
    Raiding was patched in, pvp existed from the beginning.

    If you want wow back to how it was at the begging, remove bgs, remove everything above lvl 30!
    This user has been permanently banned because the moderator doesn't like warlocks.

  17. #77

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Remove Ranks, Remove PvP rewards, Remove BGs. There was content post-30, are you sure you were playing then?

  18. #78

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by milkshake619
    and it's obvious you dont play a paladin, or havn't for very long. with the new retgear itemization and change to jotw, a sustainable mana source is imperative to class mechanics and pve and pvp viability. so, no, noone here or anywhere is making mountains out of molehills. that is because this change IS NOT A MOLEHILL, PERIOD.
    umm for the record ive played a paladin for years, and its just what i mean, people are taking things way too seriously too quickly, wait and see what happens before thinking blizzard have ruined everything, at least theyre listening to what we have to say now whereas before they didnt even achknowledge our existance

    so please milk, dont think you know all the answers

    P.S. (edit) im afraid when you say a ret paladin should be as viable as a mage or rogue etc, i agree they could be used as an alternative, i dont necessarily agree on them doing the same damage as either of the two examples you mentioned, as they are a pure dps class, whereas we are not (i know it hurts for me to say that, specially in a ret pala thread, but its the truth)
    however, i do agree on ret palas being able to keep steady dps, and it seems this JotW nerf has severly limited that, so i hope it changes ^_^

    ~Barky~
    Raining Pandarens because of the bouncy racial?
    Quote Originally Posted by rokatoro View Post
    Some Might say it was... (•_•).....( •_•)>⌐■-■....(⌐■_■) A heavy Rain.
    I'm so sorry ;_;

  19. #79

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Barky
    umm for the record ive played a paladin for years, and its just what i mean, people are taking things way too seriously too quickly, wait and see what happens before thinking blizzard have ruined everything, at least theyre listening to what we have to say now whereas before they didnt even achknowledge our existance

    so please milk, dont think you know all the answers

    P.S. (edit) im afraid when you say a ret paladin should be as viable as a mage or rogue etc, i agree they could be used as an alternative, i dont necessarily agree on them doing the same damage as either of the two examples you mentioned, as they are a pure dps class, whereas we are not (i know it hurts for me to say that, specially in a ret pala thread, but its the truth)
    however, i do agree on ret palas being able to keep steady dps, and it seems this JotW nerf has severly limited that, so i hope it changes ^_^

    ~Barky~
    Agreed. Blizzard HAS to know how bad this one is.

    They're just not THERE yet. Give them some time, if the next update hits without fixing this, start sweating, if 3.0 hits without this getting fixed, start pooping in your pants, if it gets released, reroll or buy something else.

  20. #80

    Re: Well, Blizz Destroyed Judgements of the Wise for Ret

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    We do listen and believe it or not, we read every post. We don't always agree with every suggestion, and in any case, game design by consensus or vote often doesn't lead to strong designs. Feedback is always, always, always appreciated, and it's not ignored even when it's negative (though of course we are less likely to respond to downright hostile or beligerent posts). But I don't want to give the impression that anything is up for vote or petition.

    When we respond to seemingly fluff posts, honestly it's because that's an easy thing to do. We don't have to obsess about every word or nuance lest we give someone the wrong idea. I would post a hundred times more a day if I could write in a more casual, stream-of-consciousness manner. C'est la vie.

    We haven't done much work on mana generation or sustainability in part because we were working on the massive buff changes and the mana battery mechanics in general. While managing your mana is something we want you to have to consider (else why have mana at all?), ideally we don't want to balance a class around "well this guy can do a lot but runs out of mana really fast." That's not a fun mechanic.
    Can the discussion stop now?


    [size=14pt]Read the: Paladin - Frequently Asked Questions[/size]


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