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  1. #21

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Well, there are some details about playing a moonkin that makes the QQ a little less qualified actually.

    For once FF is up for 40 sec only, and constantly reapplying it is painful for three reasons:
    1) It prevents you from DPSing for a GCD plus lag - this is 3.75% of the output if you had no lag at all. Rounded up to 4% it is a HUGE impact, and is actually less than what one would gain by the hit-buff. Yes it is raid-wide, but be assured that, just like now, every caster will take care of hit themselves, which usualy becomes possible with gear from the latest 5-man instances before going into raid content.
    2) Because haste mechanics will keep your spell rotations length variable, recasting FF as late as possible w/o letting it wear out will cut your rota, adding additional DPS loss for orientation and reaction. If you manage to come up with a rota that includes FF early enough to apply it even with varying haste, look under point 1) what this will do to the DPS.
    3) Currently there is just NO way at all that a raidkin could pick up imp. FF without losing a massive amount of its own damage potential. I'm quite sure that this will still be the case with release, and it would not differ much from the current situation. It hurts too bad.
    From a moonkin perspective it would be far far more effective if a feral druid applies his unskilled FF, and the hit is delivered by a shadowpriest. Espacially the Priest wouldn't have to use any additional casts to give that buff, it just comes along DPSing.

    Regarding Earth&Moon I actually see that a afflilock might be a little concerned. But then I don't at all! Look, if a moonkin puts up 13% dmg, and other classes are able to deliver debuffs similar to other curses, dude, you finally get to use your DPS curse and nobody will question it. As a lock I'd be all happy about that!

    Combatrezz vs. SS: Yep, it is probably an equivalent ability. Though both are not bound to affliction or balance spec, and a brezzing moonkin has to use A FUCKING LOT of mana for it. (I sometimes even have to pop my Innervate in order to be able to brezz, so there goes one ability down the drain for another one.)

    Lifetap vs. Innervate: You actually CAN compare it, at least on live servers. If a MK doesn't have a SP in its group (which was pretty often the case for me), you envy warlocks for tap because your Innervate plus Manapotions will be on CD anytime. You just cannot afford to throw it to someone because you'll need it yourself desperately. There are even just so few cases in which I was asked for it, that I can count it with 10 fingers since raiding in SSC (I'm in Sunwell 3. Boss atm, so I went a way long enough to tell). We'll just have to see what the mana effeciency will be with WotlK, and if it would be of use to more classes than resto druids and healing priests with the changes to spirit on some DPS casters. I get the string feeling that it will become even more obsolete then. It'll probably just be used to bump the mana of someone that just got brezzed (if I hadn't have to use it to be able to brezz in the first place ^^).

    Healing vs. Healthstone: Come on. If I just switch out and heal someone for a ridiculous amount I lose so much time due to GCDs and mana because of shiftig cost, that this is only an option if you couldn't DPS anyway, or the wipe is already at hand. You just won't save anything with 200ish HoT ticks or 1.4k regrowths, because you usually tend to switch role only if something is going totally wrong already. If I could heal everyone and his mother before the fight and the heal would pop just at the time it is needed, we had a deal here. But we don't.

    Crit Aura: Sweeeet, but man. Not quite unique anymore either is it?

    Imp. Aura: Finally something that will really help raidkins to be desired. That was just SO neccessary, really.

    Insect Swarm: Our most terrible spell. It scales just so horribly bad, that it actually tends to lower your DPS very much. I noticed differences of as much as up to 250DPS on Brutallus between using and not using it. That is just awfull. For now it does not seem, that this will change all to much in WotlK raiding, because anything else will "scale away". In addition to its low DPS it suffers from the same condition as FF: It runs just 12sec, so you'd have to break any rotation every 12sec to throw it in - meh, hate it! The 5% -hit on it are situational at best, and the glyph making its damage "okay enough" (although it still falls behind) will remove that component anyways.

    MotW: It is a flat stat buff, and for that it is actually quite low. Even if you improve it by talents. It will always be worse than blessing of kings, and it will fall behind more and more with every better piece of gear your raid obtains. It is an "okay" buff, but really - would anyone REALLY miss it if it wasn't there all the time? It's actually the weakest buff in the game. It does stack however, but only the lackluster base-stat part. Any resistance will be overwritten by any other resi-buff in the game, and I haven't seen one encounter where you actually need high resistance on all schools. It is nothing but a gimmick.

    And we didn't talk about summoning characters, which has been a huge time saver in many cases.


    What actually is the case is, that it would be very justified if a moonkin (or elemental shaman or shadowpriest etc.) would be on par with anybody elses DPS, because even mages now got so much support abilities that they could be called "supporter" in WotlK. The fact that buffs are now mutually excluding each other in different categories is the reason why: At least in a 25-man raid, anyone would very likely bring just one buff that will not be covered by another class/spec more easily or with a better effect - if not just DPS if you happen to have two of a class/spec. This is the ultimate reason why there actually is no such thing as an "ultra-utility"-superbuffing hybrid anymore. Hybrids are actually dead for a long time - if you want to excel in your role, you HAVE to neglect other specs enough, so that you could never fill that other role even close to viably in a progressing raid.
    Everyone will bring enough to a raid to count as "supporter", with just one exception: Rogues. They are the only ones that actually deserve to out-DPS anyone else for now. Just that there is someone else now that has the potential to bring a similar buff does not mean that yours is never going to be used. You still retain that ability just as much as the other one does if you cover that support. For this very reason there is just no logical deduction possible anylonger why anyone should be able to totally out-DPS someone else by design. If it is by skill and/or equippment, that is not what we talk about here.

    Just get over it. There is no difference between supporters and formerly "pure" DDs anymore. Something that I'm eager to test how it works out - until now, I really like the ring to it. Sure, the affliction spec does need some love DPS-wise, but please do not point your fingers at those that were in need just yesterday, and absolutely do not demand higher DPS than that for some not-anymore-existing reason that quite some people are just too slow to get out of their minds. Further on, DPS balancing is still just announced, NOT done. And belive me, at this point in the Beta, moonkin DPS is still far behind that of mages, destrolocks and even elemental shamans, so they are not quite there just as dotlocks. You definitly picked the wrong spec to pick on.

  2. #22

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9
    Well, there are some details about playing a moonkin that makes the QQ a little less qualified actually.

    For once FF is up for 40 sec only, and constantly reapplying it is painful

    Crit Aura: Sweeeet, but man. Not quite unique anymore either is it?



    MotW: It is a flat stat buff, and for that it is actually quite low. Even if you improve it by talents. It will always be worse than blessing of kings, and it will fall behind more and more with every better piece of gear your raid obtains. It is an "okay" buff, but really - would anyone REALLY miss it if it wasn't there all the time? It's actually the weakest buff in the game. It does stack however, but only the lackluster base-stat part. Any resistance will be overwritten by any other resi-buff in the game, and I haven't seen one encounter where you actually need high resistance on all schools. It is nothing but a gimmick.

    well, with FF thingy... shamans have to recast 3-4 totems every 2 mins, sometimes even more due to mobility involved in fight, thats what i call painfully mindless and DPS losing thing, to i agree, insectswarm sucks

    crit aura still is unique, eleshaman got gimmick proc on crit, sure, with same effect, but not that reliable in fights where u cant all the time nuke something :/

    motw aint bad buff imo, sure, it doesnt scale, but alot of buffs dont scale also, most of the totems, fort, AI, while we are at AI, their top rank gives 60 intelect only, without any talent to improve it, MotW talented gives 52 int, which is 120 mana less, but considering it brings another stats op top of resistances and armor... well definately not weakest buff, and yea, i would miss it, 780 mana, 546 HP, 156 AP, 47 SP... yea, id definately miss it :/


    anyway, grass is always greener on the other side, both sides got the point, but what is true, that moonkin brings 5 different buffs/debuffs for raid from 5 different classes on top of BR/innervate making him one of the most if not the most desirable buffer for raid, noone else brings that much

  3. #23

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    My important point was that you usually have those classes already that can cover enough buffs, so that a moonkins real additional contribution still isn't much more than any other new spec/class you integrate into a raid. Yes, they've got buffs for many mechanics, so does a shaman, but aside from the imp. aura none of it is that much unique or important that would make you mandatory in any raid. A moonkin is definitely more desireable that it might be just now, but that was the intention i guess.

    btw: 5% crit only when one could DPS is not too bad. Usually it should be the case, that everybody has to move/stopcasting/whatever and wouldn use it anyways. That few moments you hit aggro so badly you'd to stop casting long enough should be few enough to not be notable i guess.

    @MotW: Sure it IS a buff, but it is a wide one, thus weak on any stat when compared each by one. Usually a char can only make important use of 2 maybe 3 of them, the rest will be not more than a welcome but not neccessary needed nice-to-have. As I said: Its okay but far from critical.

    And today elemental shamans dish out about 200-300 DPS, even more just easily while even maintaining totems, so that seems to be taken into account when its damage got balanced, which in my opinion isn't that balanced if you look at how very important shamans of any spec are especially in Sunwell. I don't say monnkins should eat eles now, but they have any right to be just on par.

  4. #24

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    I'm sure Affliction will get another pass next build. They have already stated they're giving Warlocks in general a second look.

    I'd not panic much until then.
    Served steaming hot, right out of the waffle grill. With just the right amount of STFU poured on top.

  5. #25

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9
    3) Currently there is just NO way at all that a raidkin could pick up imp. FF without losing a massive amount of its own damage potential. I'm quite sure that this will still be the case with release, and it would not differ much from the current situation. It hurts too bad.
    Why do people tend to exaggerate just to make some points? It somehow nullifies your other valid points.
    Currently if you consider speccing Improved Faerie Fire you lose either Lunar Guidiance or Celestial Focus.
    Lunar Guidiance gives you 72 Spell Damage if you have 600 Intellect and Celestial Focus gives you 3% haste. Lol I'm not even sure (too lazy to do the math) if you even lose DPS considering you gain 3% Spell Hit.
    Sure, you could raise your DPS if a Shadow Priest applies Misery so you don't have to specc Imp. FF, but you don't lose "a massive amount of your own damage potential".

    And your Innervate example is exactly what i was talking about. Just because you envy the mana management of Warlocks and Mages doesn't make it a raid buff. Innervate is an awesome buff you can apply to almost anyone in the raid.
    In fact if you really want to argue about how awesome the mana management for Warlocks is (Life Tap) and justify it as a raid buff, I could go on and b*tch about how awesome the Moonkin mana management becomes in WotLK:
    Omen of Clarity: clearcast while casting your damage spells and not losing precious GCD's for Life Tap?
    Moonkin Form procc: Spell critical strikes in this form have a chance to instantly regenerate 2% of your total mana while casting your damage spells and not losing precious GCD's for Life Tap?

    You can not compare Innervate to Life Tap or Manastones... you simply can't... -_-

    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9
    What actually is the case is, that it would be very justified if a moonkin (or elemental shaman or shadowpriest etc.) would be on par with anybody elses DPS, because even mages now got so much support abilities that they could be called "supporter" in WotlK.
    And this makes no sense for two simple reasons:

    1) Mages got Food/Water, Arcane Intellect and Imp. Scorch/Winter's Chill (don't stack). Deep Arcane Mages even don't have Imp. Scorch/Winter's Chill, they get Focus Magic which basically does not stack with Improved Divine Spirit, Flametongue Totem, Totem of Wrath, Demonic Pact.
    So their utility is inferior to Moonkin's and thus the conclusion would be they should do more DPS.
    My guess is by your statement "even mages now got so much support abilites" you mean the manareg from Imp. Water Elemental. Yeah it's cool, and I'm sure they're sacrificing raid DPS for that, but go ask a fire mage about raid utility...

    2) We are talking about the raid utility of Warlocks here and you come up with it is justified if a moonkin would be on par with anybody elses DPS because some other random class is getting 1-2 raid buffs? Well that is great for the random class. It finally got some utility. But how exactly does that help the Warlock raid utility?
    If Mages bring the same utility as Moonkins for example (and I'm not saying they are), then it is ok to be on the same DPS level. But if you are clearly not on that utility level... well then your DPS should be higher, right?


    And i just saw your statement
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9
    My important point was that you usually have those classes already that can cover enough buffs, so that a moonkins real additional contribution still isn't much more than any other new spec/class you integrate into a raid.
    This is true.
    But ironically it works even better the other way around:
    If Moonkin covers enough buffs, why bring other classes?


    Again: I do not want the Moonkins to get nerfed, the Moonkin spec was lackluster and they fixed it in most aspects. But if you deny the fact that other classes (Warlocks in this example) could use some tweaking to compensate for that loss of utility... well... then i have no cookies for you.

  6. #26

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    yea, thats true, eleshamans can dish out relatively solid dps, thanks to Shadowpriests and their insane manaregen

    true, if moonkin have to settle in raid where all his buffs are already covered (imp. aura by retripala aura afaik, works same) then its pretty hard due to lack of dps, that would be same for elemental shaman, however atleast we got possibility to go 43/28 for raiding (till they nerf MD MQ or simply move MQ even higher :/) our two builds were always struggling since our dps didnt outweight the "buffs" we brought, 3, respectively 5% crit wasnt simply enough for hardcore guilds, even tho i have to admit eleshaman were in raids probably more often then moonkin

    what i see as a problem is, that when raid is being created (in wotlk ofc!) every raidleader will want all kinds of buffs available, and ofc from the lowest ammount of ppl as possible

    now, it looks like good choice will be to have 1 tank of all classes(considering they will make all of them +- on par to others), with druid and possibly DK going for dps when no tank is needed, those 4 builds provide quite alot of buffs, especially frost DK tank will be able to provide powerfull imp. icy talons and horn of winter (20% haste and 180 str + agi) meaning there arent many melee buffs left for melee buffers, looks like marksman hunter can fill up 10% AP with aura nad all melee buffs but Bloodfrenzy are settled, throw in arms warr

    then u will want to fill 2 bloodlusts and healers, 1 paladin healer, 2 shaman healers, 2 priest healers and 2 druid healers provide loads of buffs (yea, 2 druids, their healing will be probably most univesral across all classes)

    then caster and universal buffs... sellhaste covered, spelldamage covered, moonkin provides 5 buffs, put him in, now whats missing, spellcrit debuff - throw in frostmage for it, also for providing manaregen, now global haste, now, every other remaining buff/debuff can be taken care of by retripaly, and for another blessing and ofc again manaregen

    since we took care about it, we can summarize abit, we have 4 tanks, 2 able to switch to dps, 7 healers, 2 bloodlusts, only 5 buffers and now we got 9 free slots for the best dps possible, since i doubt they will change dps much, minmaxers could easily go with smth like 3 rogues, 4 warlocks and 2 hunters, or whatever melee and caster dps will be the best

    so from minmax view, which will always be happening, most from it suffer SPs, since on top of their +hit, they dont bring anything but manaregen, which is covered by 2 classes already, also enha and eleshamans are obsolete, since they dont bring anything else to the table, only totems, which are inferior to other buffs in a metter of mechanics in almost all ways, also if mages wont get comparable dmg to locks, they will probably be in one man again...


    thats based solely on my opinion and on current state of hybrid dps and pure class dps, but right now i guess thats the best composition in terms of buffing, manaregen and utility, if u dont think so, bring better one

  7. #27

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazea
    Why do people tend to exaggerate just to make some points? It somehow nullifies your other valid points.
    Sorry for maybe using too "bloated" words, but thats exactly what the balance tree is at the moment. If I'd take any talent that I can put to good use in a raid, I'll end up having just 2-5 points left for spending in resto, and Dreamstate wouldn't make it too. I am aware however that blizz announced to look into if they could cut some points here and there, but even if, I'd have da hard time to chose IFF when I could simply obtain enough hit through gear and gems and would gain valuable casting time on top of it. But you're right, we have to wait a little what they will come up with.

    Regarding Innervate: Well I guess we could argue about that forever . I would be more than happy to sacrifice 3-4 GCDs if I was able to continue DPSing afterwards until pots are ready again, and with WotlK pots will even be a one shot per fight. I might be a little compromised because I actually had to use the crappy melee4mana mechanic especially on IC at least two times a kill. This really makes you jealous ^^. I'm with you when you say it if more of a raid-utility buff than lifetap, that much is obvious. But as of now I do not see it to be important enough, since not only the moonkins mana management is going to be changed (and it really lacks badly on live, gotta admit that).

    What you say about the buffing of DPS classes is a litte short-sighted in my eyes. As Sarevokcz pointed out you'll need just about 15 ppl to cover anything important including tanking and healing. If you go for min-maxing the task is to sort out who can bring a utility to the table with the least impact on himself, and right now if you demand just everything a moonkin could bring, you might end up with half of a DD. Then you got the fairness you ask for: If it covers any buffs it WILL do much less DPS than anyone else. The problem is, that if you enter a raid as moonkin and everything is alreadily set up, you're likely to get to be replaced by any other DD since you couldn't compete with DPS even if you do not add to overall utility. Same goes for an affliction lock I guess. We're actually pulling the same strings here

    Speaking of warlock utility, you probably still did not get what I am trying to say. The differences in (de-)buffing now is, that some classes have an easier time doing it that others, not having a superior buff. I'd like to stress it one more time: A moonkin MIGHT be able to buff many aspects of a raid, but anything more than Earth and Moon and the Aura will lower its DPS notably enough. You just cannot compare a moonkin skilled for its own DPS doing a pure nuke with one that has to take just every utility talent and making sure these are up and running everytime. The difference really is big, but even the nuking owl will not be up there with other classes nuking - just as a dotlock I assume.

    That is a major mistake made quite often. People read about this and that ability, start listing them showing what this or that class can do, but rarely understand how many drawbacks one might have to take to actually make use of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazea
    If Moonkin covers enough buffs, why bring other classes?
    Because they might cover a buff with ease that a moonkin has to struggle for, making the result greater than the mere sum of these two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazea
    But if you deny the fact that other classes (Warlocks in this example) could use some tweaking to compensate for that loss of utility... well... then i have no cookies for you.
    I'd like to quote myself here: "Sure, the affliction spec does need some love DPS-wise [...]" - I take those with almonds =)


    All I want to see is, that any class and spec will be desired in raids, even if it does not bring any addition buffwise. Otherwise you'll really end up setting up a buff-base and filling the rest with the sole best DPSers that will be then. If this is what it'll become, blizzard would have just failed doing what they intend to do with the recent class-changes. I want a raid that can include any two locks, any two ele-shamans and any two owls, ret-pallys, s-priests, anything without anybody getting the idea that it is a waste of potential just because the mage over there would bring THAT much more DPS while not losing any buffs. That is the kind of inter-class-fairness I'd wish to see someday. If there just is no third mage, just take another affli or ele or moonkin, because they could perform just as well. Next time the mage is online, the other guy will kindly step back to give him the opportunity to play, and the raids performance would take little to no notice of that. Even more important in 10-mans.

  8. #28

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    We got our's wires crossed.
    Your problem:
    If Moonkins DPS sucks (because it has awesome raid utility) then you won't bring more than one Moonkin to your raid.

    My problem:
    If Moonkins DPS is equal to Warlocks then you won't bring any Warlocks to your raid simply because Moonkins offer more utility (Innervate, Debuffs etc).

    And i think the part you are misunderstanding is:
    We aren't talking about a huge DPS differences.

    I'm saying there should be a difference, but not 50%... it should be more like 10% if both are in equal gear.
    So decent geared Moonkins (T6 for example) obviously should still be equal or even better than a Warlock in T5.

  9. #29

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    You're forgetting the main point.

    Moonkin look absolutely ridiculous.

    I sure know I don't want to spend lots of hours raiding next to an overstuffed chicken.
    Served steaming hot, right out of the waffle grill. With just the right amount of STFU poured on top.

  10. #30

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    I raid as a gnome, turkeys are ok in my book.

  11. #31

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    ROFLWaffles, please jump off the next bridge, thank you.

    @Shazea: Pretty well condensed, I guess thats what it is what it comes down to, yep. Although both problems do have a "but":
    You can replace moonkin utility with a certain set of classes that will be present in at least 90% of future raids, making the only utility left the 3% haste imp. aura. Innervate and brezz come with ferals (not MTing though) and healers as well in the same quality, you don't need a chicken for that. A moonkin will certainly not replace any class, rather then each class is going to replace a moonkin a little bit. It is not the uber-buff most ppl claim it to be if put into context.
    On the other hand I do see additional support in bringing a warlock of any spec. Everybody will be very happy about every chewingstone they could get (yes, I do think they are that valuable), you'll have one soulstone each lock, you can squeeze out the last drop of utility from curses in addition to the DPS which will hopefully not be so different across specs later.
    Both specs suffer from being a great supportive force at an isolated glance, but being replaced support-wise down to maybe one DPS and some "oh shit" relevant abilities in a properly set up raid. Elemental shamans fit into this category as well, though I do not see that much concern when it comes to personal DPS there right now.

    We aren't talking about a huge DPS differences.
    I'm saying there should be a difference, but not 50%... it should be more like 10% if both are in equal gear.
    Well, 10% are probably still in the range of critluck and other parameters, so it'd be a tolerable number. A range of 10% difference across all DPSing classes would be the deal in my eyes, but I still do not quite agree that locks and owls should be apart from each other that much, since warlocks are those DDs I always considered to be one of the strongest utility classes besides the so called "hybrinds", and thus always were not all too happy with them being called a pure DPS class. You simply do not have the option to heal (others), but that should not be the definition of a supporting class since it has nothing to do with it really.

    btw: I am currently leveling a lock as affli. It definitly is appealing

  12. #32

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9
    ROFLWaffles, please jump off the next bridge, thank you.

    @Shazea: Pretty well condensed, I guess thats what it is what it comes down to, yep. Although both problems do have a "but":
    You can replace moonkin utility with a certain set of classes that will be present in at least 90% of future raids, making the only utility left the 3% haste imp. aura. Innervate and brezz come with ferals (not MTing though) and healers as well in the same quality, you don't need a chicken for that. A moonkin will certainly not replace any class, rather then each class is going to replace a moonkin a little bit. It is not the uber-buff most ppl claim it to be if put into context.
    On the other hand I do see additional support in bringing a warlock of any spec. Everybody will be very happy about every chewingstone they could get (yes, I do think they are that valuable), you'll have one soulstone each lock, you can squeeze out the last drop of utility from curses in addition to the DPS which will hopefully not be so different across specs later.
    Both specs suffer from being a great supportive force at an isolated glance, but being replaced support-wise down to maybe one DPS and some "oh shit" relevant abilities in a properly set up raid. Elemental shamans fit into this category as well, though I do not see that much concern when it comes to personal DPS there right now.
    Well, 10% are probably still in the range of critluck and other parameters, so it'd be a tolerable number. A range of 10% difference across all DPSing classes would be the deal in my eyes, but I still do not quite agree that locks and owls should be apart from each other that much, since warlocks are those DDs I always considered to be one of the strongest utility classes besides the so called "hybrinds", and thus always were not all too happy with them being called a pure DPS class. You simply do not have the option to heal (others), but that should not be the definition of a supporting class since it has nothing to do with it really.

    btw: I am currently leveling a lock as affli. It definitly is appealing
    sure we can squeeze out more dps utility through a curse... but using a utility curse automatically lowers our personal dps and we can only choose 1
    sure resto can brez... but moonkin can too as well as innervate... nether of those abilities are the type that a raid leader would say "meh we already have 1 brez". Also impr FF, insect swarm, and earth and moon, moonkin aura, and imp moonkin aura are all > than coe w/malediction which are the only abilities brought solely by aff locks and moonkin

    so if you want to take all the basic abilities out of the equation since destro locks and demo locks can have along with the druid base abilities which feral and resto can have, you still have an overwhelmingly better utility from moonkin.

    i dont want moonkin nerfed.. i have a druid as well and im happy to see good things... but affliction utility has been gimped by the last few changes in beta, and in the words of blizzard "dps will be scaled accordingly to how much utility the spec does or does not bring to a raid"

  13. #33

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9
    Well, there are some details about playing a moonkin that makes the QQ a little less qualified actually.

    For once FF is up for 40 sec only, and constantly reapplying it is painful for three reasons:
    1) It prevents you from DPSing for a GCD plus lag - this is 3.75% of the output if you had no lag at all. Rounded up to 4% it is a HUGE impact, and is actually less than what one would gain by the hit-buff. Yes it is raid-wide, but be assured that, just like now, every caster will take care of hit themselves, which usualy becomes possible with gear from the latest 5-man instances before going into raid content.
    2) Because haste mechanics will keep your spell rotations length variable, recasting FF as late as possible w/o letting it wear out will cut your rota, adding additional DPS loss for orientation and reaction. If you manage to come up with a rota that includes FF early enough to apply it even with varying haste, look under point 1) what this will do to the DPS.
    3) Currently there is just NO way at all that a raidkin could pick up imp. FF without losing a massive amount of its own damage potential. I'm quite sure that this will still be the case with release, and it would not differ much from the current situation. It hurts too bad.
    From a moonkin perspective it would be far far more effective if a feral druid applies his unskilled FF, and the hit is delivered by a shadowpriest. Espacially the Priest wouldn't have to use any additional casts to give that buff, it just comes along DPSing.

    Regarding Earth&Moon I actually see that a afflilock might be a little concerned. But then I don't at all! Look, if a moonkin puts up 13% dmg, and other classes are able to deliver debuffs similar to other curses, dude, you finally get to use your DPS curse and nobody will question it. As a lock I'd be all happy about that!

    Combatrezz vs. SS: Yep, it is probably an equivalent ability. Though both are not bound to affliction or balance spec, and a brezzing moonkin has to use A FUCKING LOT of mana for it. (I sometimes even have to pop my Innervate in order to be able to brezz, so there goes one ability down the drain for another one.)

    Lifetap vs. Innervate: You actually CAN compare it, at least on live servers. If a MK doesn't have a SP in its group (which was pretty often the case for me), you envy warlocks for tap because your Innervate plus Manapotions will be on CD anytime. You just cannot afford to throw it to someone because you'll need it yourself desperately. There are even just so few cases in which I was asked for it, that I can count it with 10 fingers since raiding in SSC (I'm in Sunwell 3. Boss atm, so I went a way long enough to tell). We'll just have to see what the mana effeciency will be with WotlK, and if it would be of use to more classes than resto druids and healing priests with the changes to spirit on some DPS casters. I get the string feeling that it will become even more obsolete then. It'll probably just be used to bump the mana of someone that just got brezzed (if I hadn't have to use it to be able to brezz in the first place ^^).

    Healing vs. Healthstone: Come on. If I just switch out and heal someone for a ridiculous amount I lose so much time due to GCDs and mana because of shiftig cost, that this is only an option if you couldn't DPS anyway, or the wipe is already at hand. You just won't save anything with 200ish HoT ticks or 1.4k regrowths, because you usually tend to switch role only if something is going totally wrong already. If I could heal everyone and his mother before the fight and the heal would pop just at the time it is needed, we had a deal here. But we don't.

    Crit Aura: Sweeeet, but man. Not quite unique anymore either is it?

    Imp. Aura: Finally something that will really help raidkins to be desired. That was just SO neccessary, really.

    Insect Swarm: Our most terrible spell. It scales just so horribly bad, that it actually tends to lower your DPS very much. I noticed differences of as much as up to 250DPS on Brutallus between using and not using it. That is just awfull. For now it does not seem, that this will change all to much in WotlK raiding, because anything else will "scale away". In addition to its low DPS it suffers from the same condition as FF: It runs just 12sec, so you'd have to break any rotation every 12sec to throw it in - meh, hate it! The 5% -hit on it are situational at best, and the glyph making its damage "okay enough" (although it still falls behind) will remove that component anyways.

    MotW: It is a flat stat buff, and for that it is actually quite low. Even if you improve it by talents. It will always be worse than blessing of kings, and it will fall behind more and more with every better piece of gear your raid obtains. It is an "okay" buff, but really - would anyone REALLY miss it if it wasn't there all the time? It's actually the weakest buff in the game. It does stack however, but only the lackluster base-stat part. Any resistance will be overwritten by any other resi-buff in the game, and I haven't seen one encounter where you actually need high resistance on all schools. It is nothing but a gimmick.

    And we didn't talk about summoning characters, which has been a huge time saver in many cases.


    What actually is the case is, that it would be very justified if a moonkin (or elemental shaman or shadowpriest etc.) would be on par with anybody elses DPS, because even mages now got so much support abilities that they could be called "supporter" in WotlK. The fact that buffs are now mutually excluding each other in different categories is the reason why: At least in a 25-man raid, anyone would very likely bring just one buff that will not be covered by another class/spec more easily or with a better effect - if not just DPS if you happen to have two of a class/spec. This is the ultimate reason why there actually is no such thing as an "ultra-utility"-superbuffing hybrid anymore. Hybrids are actually dead for a long time - if you want to excel in your role, you HAVE to neglect other specs enough, so that you could never fill that other role even close to viably in a progressing raid.
    Everyone will bring enough to a raid to count as "supporter", with just one exception: Rogues. They are the only ones that actually deserve to out-DPS anyone else for now. Just that there is someone else now that has the potential to bring a similar buff does not mean that yours is never going to be used. You still retain that ability just as much as the other one does if you cover that support. For this very reason there is just no logical deduction possible anylonger why anyone should be able to totally out-DPS someone else by design. If it is by skill and/or equippment, that is not what we talk about here.

    Just get over it. There is no difference between supporters and formerly "pure" DDs anymore. Something that I'm eager to test how it works out - until now, I really like the ring to it. Sure, the affliction spec does need some love DPS-wise, but please do not point your fingers at those that were in need just yesterday, and absolutely do not demand higher DPS than that for some not-anymore-existing reason that quite some people are just too slow to get out of their minds. Further on, DPS balancing is still just announced, NOT done. And belive me, at this point in the Beta, moonkin DPS is still far behind that of mages, destrolocks and even elemental shamans, so they are not quite there just as dotlocks. You definitly picked the wrong spec to pick on.

    i stopped reading when you QQd about FF only 40secs and using a GCD... i gaurantee affliction locks lose more dps from having to use CoE than moonkin do throwing up FF once every min i also bet that we lose a lot more dps talents by having to spec 3/3 malediction as WELL as all the wasted talent points that improve curse of agony along the way

  14. #34

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9
    ROFLWaffles, please jump off the next bridge, thank you.
    I see we have the sense of humor of a spoon. Nice on biting the bait though.
    Served steaming hot, right out of the waffle grill. With just the right amount of STFU poured on top.

  15. #35

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9

    1. You can replace moonkin utility with a certain set of classes that will be present in at least 90% of future raids, making the only utility left the 3% haste imp. aura. Innervate and brezz come with ferals (not MTing though) and healers as well in the same quality, you don't need a chicken for that. A moonkin will certainly not replace any class, rather then each class is going to replace a moonkin a little bit. It is not the uber-buff most ppl claim it to be if put into context.

    2. On the other hand I do see additional support in bringing a warlock of any spec. Everybody will be very happy about every chewingstone they could get (yes, I do think they are that valuable), you'll have one soulstone each lock, you can squeeze out the last drop of utility from curses in addition to the DPS which will hopefully not be so different across specs later.

    3. Well, 10% are probably still in the range of critluck and other parameters, so it'd be a tolerable number. A range of 10% difference across all DPSing classes would be the deal in my eyes, but I still do not quite agree that locks and owls should be apart from each other that much, since warlocks are those DDs I always considered to be one of the strongest utility classes besides the so called "hybrinds", and thus always were not all too happy with them being called a pure DPS class. You simply do not have the option to heal (others), but that should not be the definition of a supporting class since it has nothing to do with it really.

    btw: I am currently leveling a lock as affli. It definitly is appealing
    1. You are wrong, especially in the bold part, but then again if i were your guild's RL i would love to have as much utility per person i could got in order to stack raw HPS/DPS (what's needed in each occasion) rather than spreading additional raiding spots based sorely on utility, in the end Why use 2-3 spots to cover the utility one class can offer?

    2. "Chewing stone" and Soul stone you say ? Seriously while Health stone is an asset, Brez>Soulstone in any occasion and way possible, btw you know that you can't stack HS anymore right?

    3. Ok, you just hit vein with that... Bold part once again,

    *** deep breath ***

    R U FUCKING KIDDING ME ??? You consider a 10% damage difference between warlocks and your fucking hybrid TO MUCH ??? Give me a Healing tree,a melee dps tree,a magic dps tree and the ability to main tank and then come back to discuss this further, until then STOP SMOKING CRACK...

    Btw Feral,Resto Druids are the same class as you so stop acting like they are different classes...

    Welcome to the world of Hybrids

  16. #36

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by MortuariusBC
    you still have an overwhelmingly better utility from moonkin.
    I would agree if you wrote "better utility", but definitly not overwhelmingly. If you leave out any (de)buffs we have discussed here, it really comes down to healthstones and soulstones versus innervate and brezz. Any of them are failsafe abilities that a raid should be eager to get rid of the need for. They are nice in situations, but do both not save us a secure raidslot.
    When taking into account really unique (de)buffs no one else could deliver, I agree - impr. moonkin aura will be desired. But then it ends, really. Any second char of our specs will just bring the two abilities each from the sentence before, and they are quite alike.

    The point with affliction being gimped is s.th. I do not really understand. We in our guild had quarrels about if we'd allow an afflilock in the raid just now in Sunwell, so it seems that there was not that much to be gimped anyways. I do NOT say that it'd had to stay that way at all, but it seems to be not the case that this spec could get less desired than it already is. You need all the love you can get, but still not more than anybody else.


    My QQ about FF, well, how could you lose more DPS from applying a debuff every two minutes compared to every 40 seconds? How does that math work? And again: Be happy that you do not have to spec into malediction anymore if you have a moonkin around. I understand it as if a moonkin actually gives you more dps potential in that way that you could spec more into your own damage. I just do not understand why this is a problem.
    And from the talent trees on this site I see that impr. CoA is a 2 point talent tier one in affliction. How do you waste pointes "along the way" to it? Even Contagion apperas to be an integral part in this spec, where just nothing gets really wasted. Wasting is what moonkins had to do in the resto tree until the latest changes

  17. #37

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Unspoken
    R U FUCKING KIDDING ME ??? You consider a 10% damage difference between warlocks and your fucking hybrid TO MUCH ??? Give me a Healing tree,a melee dps tree,a magic dps tree and the ability to main tank and then come back to discuss this further, until then STOP SMOKING CRACK...
    So, what would you do with your healing tree when going to a raid as a damagedealer? Tanking?

    Btw Feral,Resto Druids are the same class as you so stop acting like they are different classes...
    Each fills a completely different role, so yes, they are much more like different classes than the three warlock specs for example. They even got an entirely different set of spells and abilities. Isn't that what, among some other things, define "different classes"?

    Welcome to the world of Hybrids
    Welcome to the world of "there is no such thing as a hybrid when raiding". When was the last time you saw your maintanking bear heal another tank? When was the last time you saw a tree hitting a boss? An owl tanking a boss? Never? Mhh...
    When do people finally realize that if you chose a role as a hybrid you are just as much bound to it as any fucking "pure" class out there? Or do YOU get us the top notch gear for all specs for the price of one and will you calm those "pure" classes down if "their" pescious gear gets eaten by that, pay our respec bills and teach us mastering every tiny detail about each role to be a viable switching hybrid in a progressing raid? Will YOU grind/buy four different flasks, all different elixiers and buff foods and stash them beside your four complete PvE gears and some resi gear in your bags? No? So please lower your voice a bit, until you played one of these just soooo overpowered "hybrids" in a seroius raid for some months. Until then your tears are worthless, really.

  18. #38

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9

    1. So, what would you do with your healing tree when going to a raid as a damagedealer? Tanking?

    2. Each fills a completely different role, so yes, they are much more like different classes than the three warlock specs for example. They even got an entirely different set of spells and abilities. Isn't that what, among some other things, define "different classes"?

    3. Welcome to the world of "there is no such thing as a hybrid when raiding". When was the last time you saw your maintanking bear heal another tank? When was the last time you saw a tree hitting a boss? An owl tanking a boss? Never? Mhh...
    When do people finally realize that if you chose a role as a hybrid you are just as much bound to it as any fucking "pure" class out there? Or do YOU get us the top notch gear for all specs for the price of one and will you calm those "pure" classes down if "their" pescious gear gets eaten by that, pay our respec bills and teach us mastering every tiny detail about each role to be a viable switching hybrid in a progressing raid? Will YOU grind/buy four different flasks, all different elixiers and buff foods and stash them beside your four complete PvE gears and some resi gear in your bags? No? So please lower your voice a bit, until you played one of these just soooo overpowered "hybrids" in a seroius raid for some months. Until then your tears are worthless, really.
    1. You, as a hybrid, have the ability to choose from, us as non-hybrids don't... Yes, if i could, i would have respeced Healer or tank to assist my guild, you can still do it, we can't.

    So you will be able to do all 3 things right once spec correctly, we are not allowed to.
    After all you choose a Hybrid class to be jack of all trades, or i am mistaken ?

    2. You are wrong, especially on Warlocks, first Shadow bolt is (till WOTLK) the best source of damage for all specs, second We are the only fucking class that has an "official" (=admitted by devs) leveling tree (affliction),third non of our trees are career defining so no our 3 trees don't represent 3 different class like yours do (that are actually 4).

    3. So it's ok to you that when a group/guild/raid needs either a Healer or a Tank or a DPS you can offer your services while pure classes are stuck to there one role? It's fucking fair to your eyes aye?

    a. About gear/respecs/consumables give me a break, if you can't afford all that you legendary fail. (If you were on a high end guild u would be having 3+ full t6 sets by now, on my lock i have 2 for different enchant/gems).
    b. I have both a lvl70 paladin and druid alt with the first perhaps some years older than your main so cut the crap i was here from the very begginng.

    Making Hybrids more appealing and fun <> Making Pure classes suck.

    Sorry for the following caps

    IF THERE ISN'T A NOTICEABLE MARGIN BETWEEN HYBRID AND PURE CLASSES PERFORMANCE THE SECOND BECOME OBSOLETE, IS IT SO DAMN HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?

  19. #39

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Unspoken
    1. You, as a hybrid, have the ability to choose from, us as non-hybrids don't... Yes, if i could, i would have respeced Healer or tank to assist my guild, you can still do it, we can't.

    So you will be able to do all 3 things right once spec correctly, we are not allowed to.
    After all you choose a Hybrid class to be jack of all trades, or i am mistaken ?
    Yes, you are my dear. It would take long enough for a hybrid to gather all the gear you need to fulfill another role at the same level I come from, that the few days of rerolling another char wouldn't make that much of a difference anymore. So why didn't you just take your pally and healed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unspoken
    3. So it's ok to you that when a group/guild/raid needs either a Healer or a Tank or a DPS you can offer your services while pure classes are stuck to there one role? It's fucking fair to your eyes aye?
    It is, because the italic part is just wrong. If anyone is looking for a tank or healer, I'm just sitting quietly in the corner as you would do, because I just could not mime a fully equipped and trained healer or tank. Remember that at least I am talking about high end raiding here, as I consider it to be the only actual and lasting content in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unspoken
    a. About gear/respecs/consumables give me a break, if you can't afford all that you legendary fail. (If you were on a high end guild u would be having 3+ full t6 sets by now, on my lock i have 2 for different enchant/gems).
    Your legendary fail here happens to be in a guild that is raiding high end. But somehow I never had the chance to get my hands on 3+ full T6 (wtf!? ^^) without taking it away from someone who was able to improve his main-spec with it. Might be caused by the fact that we just raid 3 days a week, and thus are skipping MH completly to go on with the important stuff. But that is certainly not my personal fail dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unspoken
    b. I have both a lvl70 paladin and druid alt with the first perhaps some years older than your main so cut the crap i was here from the very begginng.
    I started WoW at the third day of the US open beta. I belive we are both here equally long then. I happen to have the following chars leveled to 70: Rogue (pre-BC main), 2x Hunter, Mage, Priest, Druid, and I am working on my paladin and warlock at the moment, the shaman hast to wait because the lock is so much fun atm. Seriously, this has nothing to do with this discussion, I just felt I had to position myself correctly in your own meaningless terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unspoken
    Making Hybrids more appealing and fun <> Making Pure classes suck.
    I never ever asked for making "pure" classes suck. Please point to where I should have written anything like that. Please do not make things up I did never say, that is weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unspoken
    Sorry for the following caps
    Nope.

  20. #40

    Re: Moonkin vs affliction lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Unspoken

    We are the only fucking class that has an "official" (=admitted by devs) leveling tree (affliction)

    ever heard about retri paladins and enha shamans at the beggining of tBC? "leveling spec" by Blues also.
    so, fail.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unspoken

    IF THERE ISN'T A NOTICEABLE MARGIN BETWEEN HYBRID AND PURE CLASSES PERFORMANCE THE SECOND BECOME OBSOLETE, IS IT SO DAMN HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?
    problem is: if hybrids wont do respectable damage (lets say those 10% less then pure) then WHAT is the point in bringing them when thier buffs are covered? then hybrids will not so many buffs are obsolete, too

    see? it works both ways

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