Moonkin vs affliction lock

[Unspoken]

@Medium9

Dear M8y from what i am reading you are not stupid, far from it, so please try to understand that this starts and ends to the ability to choose wtf you want to do, just because you don't want to doesn't mean that the options aren't there to choose from.

My intentions are not to be disrespectful to you or to any other "Hybrid" class players but please just read what you wrote.

A few days of rerolling another char wouldn't make that much of a difference anymore.

Basically your reasoning ends with a "Reroll and profit" statement and while you are 1000% correct on that, i am more than sure that you understand that this is NOT the sollution.

Once again Blizzards strategy may seem as a good way to go (especially for hybrids), but in the long run, and for the very same reason that you are currently happy, what we'll really die will be the originality and uniqueness behind each and every class.

Not going to answer another post of yours, not because i don't support or respect your opinions but rather that whatever was needed to be said is already mentioned.

[Unspoken]

ever heard about retri paladins and enha shamans at the beggining of tBC? "leveling spec" by Blues also.
so, fail.

Perhaps, but as far as i know both specs mentioned are now viable (if i am not mistaken that is) while affliction remains broken, but since you value history we can talk about rolling ignites and AQ40 days

[Sarevokcz]

i like history, especially ZG stories


but i dont wanna troll the threat

back on topic: i full support affli locks to get some love
what i dont support is that change to buffs, since it will turn out one way or another, certain hybrids will be left out with little to no use due to lacking dmg and small portion of buffs/debuffs OR some "pure dmg" class trees will be made obsolete, since hybrids will surpass their use by utility by things like BR/another bless/manaregen/etc

[Panoramixe]

You do understand that all our utility can be brought by other classes, who also have other (de)buffs right?
Now for your whole we need to do more dps than you, you r hybrid. It's plain stupid.
Let's give an example shall we.
Lock does 100% damage, moonkin does 90% damage.
Now you say this is fair because the moonkin has a lot of (de)buffs right?
Now let's check the other (de)buff classes, oh wow they all have 100+% damage too. Well the moonkin has just become useless, their utility can be brought by others that outdamage him.

Yes affliction needs some help, no moonkin don't have to be inferior to anything.

Also you can respec to a better dps spec without even changing gear, that makes as much sense as saying we can just respec for a completely differnt role with a different gear set. Every spec has the right to be viable when viewed seperately.

[MortuariusBC]

You do understand that all our utility can be brought by other classes, who also have other (de)buffs right?
Now for your whole we need to do more dps than you, you r hybrid. It's plain stupid.
Let's give an example shall we.
Lock does 100% damage, moonkin does 90% damage.
Now you say this is fair because the moonkin has a lot of (de)buffs right?
Now let's check the other (de)buff classes, oh wow they all have 100+% damage too. Well the moonkin has just become useless, their utility can be brought by others that outdamage him.

Yes affliction needs some help, no moonkin don't have to be inferior to anything.

Also you can respec to a better dps spec without even changing gear, that makes as much sense as saying we can just respec for a completely differnt role with a different gear set. Every spec has the right to be viable when viewed seperately.

just a comment on your last remark

moonkin / resto can use the same gear with a respec
affliction / destr cannot.... you dont stack haste and crit as affliction
demo /affliction can
feral bear / feral cat can now use the same gear

[ascote]

Its very simple.
if boomkin=1
then afflictionlock=0
That and a few other buffing classes, you can fill the whole raid with destro locks/fire mages or wathever got the OP beacon.

Sure, affliction locks will be able to do more damage if they can use curse of agony, its still not enough to bridge the gap with mages or wathever gets the OP dps baton.

Just wondering, do moonkins really need earth and moon to be raid viable? Isn't RAID WIDE MOONKIN AURA WITH IMPROVED MOONKIN AURA enough?

[Medium9]

this starts and ends to the ability to choose wtf you want to do, just because you don't want to doesn't mean that the options aren't there to choose from.

I do understand your point, but I really fail to recognize it as a point all together. The effort needed to change roles or to be able to change "on the fly" is so very little less that from rerolling or equipping an alt for a different task, that it really does not matter. Everyone has the choice to pick whatever class they'd want to create. I really make a difference between leveling and high level raiding. When we talked about leveling and non-heroic 5-man instances I'd be completely on your side, but things change drastically when going serious.

And yes, I actually ment "reroll and profit", and I really do think that this is one possible solution, considerig what I said about the effort. I rerolled from Rogue to Druid just because I was unhappy with being the last wanted class in raids and bringing nothing but decent yet not out of the range DPS. That was pre-BC I have to add.
I leveled the Druid as feral, since it was the only real choice back then, but it was intended as a healer. Then at 70, beginning with raids, I got so bored with the druid way of healing that I completely lost the fun playing WoW all together. Then I remembered how much fun it was while I was a green moonkin, and resigned from raids for about 3 weeks to gather and craft a completely epic moonkin starter set (Sunwell badge-gear wasnt available, and since I do little to no PvP that was no source either. Even Karazhan didn't drop badges then) to be able to keep up as well as even possible with the other DDs, that have progessed just before Lady Vashj in the meantime. 3 Weeks for a change from good but bored healer to hardly viably equipped damage caster. I do not consider that to be "just reskilled and switched rolles". It really isn't just that easy non-hybrid players often think.

And I am very sure that every class will retain its uniqueness. The damage or healing anybody does is alreadily off the same type: It affects the same bars whatever class you use. The differences are just in playstyle, and this obviously is pushed even further wit the next addon.

[Medium9]

@MortuariusBC:
moonkin / resto can use the same gear with a respec -- Holy crap! Who told you THAT!? Not at all, sorry. We share two stats: Spellpower and Int. There might be a little crossover while leveling, but I do not see raiding epics that would all say "Leather; 40 Stamina; 50 Int; 100 Spellpower; be happy with it". That would be a major fail in design.
affliction / destr cannot.... you dont stack haste and crit as affliction -- Applies to balance/resto in a similar way: Resto isn't very keen about crit, and will not need a single point of hit. A moonkin is likely to not have that much sprit, and it wouldn't even have too much use for it.
demo /affliction can -- nice!
feral bear / feral cat can now use the same gear -- Ehem, no again. A bear will go for def and gem for stamina. A cat will go for str/agi or AP/crit directly. They might be able to share 1-2 slots like rings and a trinket sometimes, but thats mostly it.

[MortuariusBC]

@MortuariusBC:
moonkin / resto can use the same gear with a respec -- Holy crap! Who told you THAT!? Not at all, sorry. We share two stats: Spellpower and Int. There might be a little crossover while leveling, but I do not see raiding epics that would all say "Leather; 40 Stamina; 50 Int; 100 Spellpower; be happy with it". That would be a major fail in design.
affliction / destr cannot.... you dont stack haste and crit as affliction -- Applies to balance/resto in a similar way: Resto isn't very keen about crit, and will not need a single point of hit. A moonkin is likely to not have that much sprit, and it wouldn't even have too much use for it.
demo /affliction can -- nice!
feral bear / feral cat can now use the same gear -- Ehem, no again. A bear will go for def and gem for stamina. A cat will go for str/agi or AP/crit directly. They might be able to share 1-2 slots like rings and a trinket sometimes, but thats mostly it.

just looking at the pvp gear... moonkin/resto could very well use the same gear.. the difference on the 80 arena gear is one has spirit and one has mp/5.... of course i know its not ideal i was just going off what blizzard released

as for the bear/cat gear... blizzard clearly stated that druids will be tanking in rogue gear, with crushing blows taken off the table and mitigation/avoidance talents being tweaked to eliminate the need for leather with different stats... i know its gay... but its what blizzard is doing

id love to dps as affliction and to actually scale well with what gear will be offered... or id rather do sub par damage and get monster utility... as it looks now moonkin will do the same damage as affliction locks but have more utility... the fix needs to happen to affliction i just brought up moonkin as an example... i know moonkin are far from complete as well

[Panoramixe]

just looking at the pvp gear... moonkin/resto could very well use the same gear.. the difference on the 80 arena gear is one has spirit and one has mp/5.... of course i know its not ideal i was just going off what blizzard released

as for the bear/cat gear... blizzard clearly stated that druids will be tanking in rogue gear, with crushing blows taken off the table and mitigation/avoidance talents being tweaked to eliminate the need for leather with different stats... i know its gay... but its what blizzard is doing

id love to dps as affliction and to actually scale well with what gear will be offered... or id rather do sub par damage and get monster utility... as it looks now moonkin will do the same damage as affliction locks but have more utility... the fix needs to happen to affliction i just brought up moonkin as an example... i know moonkin are far from complete as well

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...druidnuker.jpg
pvp moonkin set
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ruidhealer.jpg
pvp healing set
At 70, yes gear is very similar. At 80 Blizz has made a lot of effort to actually not have moonkin and resto druids share gear.

Yes the person you quoted is clueless about bears in wotlk, they won't need any def at all. Whether a bear druid will be in full rogue gear is just the question though, it might as well be done with craftables and tier gear. Yes Blizzard said they intend feral druids to completely share gear with rogues, but Blizzard also said we'd get a dire cat form and that they'd balance arenas around the 5vs5 bracket.

I do agree they should add some more utility to affliction locks and not a curse for once would be impressive.

Yes a lot of balance druids, including me, are very defensive, with reason. People have looked down upon us for ages and demanded we would be inferior for no reason, we just want to be viable for once.

[Varithorn1]

THANKS FOR CONTRIBUTING! Currently, if you knew anything about affliction warlocks, you would know that they are one of the most underpowered specs in WoW, do to horrible scaling mechanics.

[Panoramixe]

How noob you are and you cry because you think moonkins are better?

Warlock most overpowered class ever

Go troll the official wow forums, you belong there. Oh wait a second I post there too, just go play runescape and leave us be.

Anyway affliction warlocks have serious issues in pve.

[Raptorg]

How noob you are and you cry because you think moonkins are better?

Warlock most overpowered class ever

taking on s3/s4 geared sl/sl warlocks in your rep/s1 gear is indeed a viable way to judge the power of a whole class

[Shazea]

Yes a lot of balance druids, including me, are very defensive, with reason.

Hey I don't blame you for that. I could even go that far and say i fully understand it since (as mentioned before: played Druid for a long time)I leveled my Druid with the only viable levelspecc in the past: Resto, and my Druid could still be considered my main because I still use him for PvE. Switched to Warlock for PvP and my goal for WotLK is to make the Warlock my main (PvP and PvE). Could have done that by now but Affliction sucks and I don't want to spam Shadowbolt for about 5-10 minutes.

As I said i don't blame you or anyone for doing that. I try to discuss things as dispassionately as possible for me with pure facts thus it somehow annoys me if people discuss things by pulling arguments out of their asses (but luckily this is not the case for the most part of this thread).
So keep discussions constructive and I'll gladly participate.


EDIT: oh and i forgot something: MortuariusBC is quite correct about Druid gear. I'd even go that far and say Restokins in WotLK will be an utter pain in the ass from a PvP point of view. Imagine if you'd have 1500 Spell Power... with changed coefficients this would equal almost 3000 +Heal on Live right now... add some mp5 and you could burst your enemies down while still being a very good healer. But this is also the case for Disc Priests, Ele Shamys with some Resto talents and Shockadins and more important: This isn't a PvP discussion

[ascote]

I stated it before but got no response, is heaven and earth really necessary for moonkin viability? I mean, did moonkins really need such a buff?

[Asmo]

I don't think it was that Moonkins themselves needed the buff, it was more along the lines of Blizz wanting to give a sp dmg buff to another class and moonkins were just lucky enough to be picked. It fits with their new, buffs across the board mentality.

[greenmasheen]

I think you've got some fairly valid points, but there are probably some comparisons you've overlooked as you've included some core druids abilities in there rather then moonkin specific ones like battle res and innervate. You chose not to compare innervate to lifetap/drainlife for some odd reason, but locks have always been rather mana efficient. Sure they can't lifetap for someone else, but generally druids don't get the pleasure of putting innervates on many classes anyway (very few classes have the spirit tho make it useful).

As for a comparison to healthstones druids can heal people, but this will definitely put a dent in whatever dps they are doing, and involves dropping out of moonkin form. In addition healthstones provide a nice user activated heal which can be nice for fights like say Najentus or Aran where you may or may not suffer quite a bit of burst damage to the raid at one time. I know personally I like having all 3 healthstones for raids and when I'm tanking on my warrior they've saved my life countless times.

Mark of the wild is honestly a crappy buff, and generally its gonna be the resto druids that are in charge of MotW and not moonkins. Although some do pick up the improved version it is a resto talent. I'd really rather have an imp in my group, and I believe there is some fel int buff that personally seems a tad more attractive then MotW. And I am aware that this fel int buff can be overridden by AI, but it still seems nice and there isn't always a mage around.

You chose to ignore things like crowd control for some reason. But warlocks have banish / fear / enslave and druids get cyclone / hibernate / roots. A nice little bit of variety between the two, and honestly not sure what I'd rather have. I know in PvE those warlock options seem nicer then the druids, but in PvP it seems to be more of a toss up. Although personally I hate those fear spamming locks to death.

Anyway, I don't really feel like rambling on. Moonkin have needed a lot of help and finally getting some attention. They have always been a redheaded step child in raids. Clearly they got buffed in such a manner that they will most likely lock themselves into a raid spot no problem, and I'm sure all 3 specs of druids will find their way into a raid. I'm not incredibly familiar with warlocks to suggest some changes, so I think really rather then complaining about moonkins being useful, come up with ideas for what would make the AFF warlock more wanted or useful. Everybody deserves a shot in the raid.

warlocks in general are not mana efficient.

affliction locks can heal self and tap down to gain mana, destro locks eat more mana than mages.

[Drlove]

I have played a druid for 4 years including pre BC when druids sucked.

Finally Druids become as good as other hybrid classes and achieve some balance
and everyone starts complaining. Balance druids can not sheep, banish, enslave
SS, summon, give out healthstones, create water and food etc. So why focus on
just the dps and buffs when other classes have their advantages? Each class has
its pros and each class has its cons. Us druids have been gimped for years and now it is a nice change to have some much wanted balance and equality.
Im sure there are other people like me out there happy with what Blizzard is doing for all
classes and sick of hearing ppl complain about the "changes"
Before passing judgement why dont you ask some folks that have played druids or another example
being a ret pally to see how they feel.

Keep up the good work BLizz.

[Shazea]

I have played a druid for 4 years including pre BC when druids sucked.

So have I, but that does not make my points more or less valid.

And by actually reading the thread you would have noticed that none of the posters really complains about Moonkins.
They all complain about Warlocks (especially Affliction) having lackluster utility and scaling issues.

You know if you want to measure the speed or power of your car compared to other cars, you simply use another fast car as unit of measurement.
If your car is too slow, you don't go and wreck the other cars engine to make your car look like it's faster than before...
That is basically what you are implying, but that is by no means the goal... -_-

(Ironically though most fast car owners in this thread tend to let their fast car look like it is slower than all facts are indicating)

I'd like to quote you here:

Be reasonable....

EDIT: hm you edited your post, no more "Be reasonable"

Before passing judgement why dont you ask some folks that have played druids

I don't think asking myself once again would make my points obsolete.
And your logic works both ways, have YOU ever played a Warlock?

[Drlove]

Yes I have a 70 warlock. Perhaps I should have stated that earlier. It is not my main
but merely an alt. To that end my comments about Warlocks and Druids are justified.
It may seem unfair that Warlocks have been changed but imo it is a reasonable and
fair change. Like I stated above Warlocks bring much more to raids that a raid buff ie
SS, HS, Summon, AOE, Imp buff, fear etc. I am not implying that Blizzard should reduce
other classes abilities to make the druid look better and nor have Blizzard done that.
Every class in the coming expansion will have gained, lost or both talents and skills.
Stop worrying about the changes that have happened, it is not a big deal in the whole
scheme of things. Just play the game and enjoy!