Moonkin vs affliction lock

[MortuariusBC]

brez vs soulstone
FF vs curse of reck (not if we use another curse)
moonkin crit vs ....
earth and moon vs curse of elements w/malediction (not if we use another curse)
insect swarm vs ....
mark of the wild vs unending breath and detect invis? maybe pet buff
improved moonkin aura haste vs ....
innervate vs ....
... vs healthstones

i really hope affliction dps > moonkin dps


i think we see clearly who the better dps/utility spec is now considering that we can only use 1 curse and druids can do those all at the same time new insect swarm is -5% hit, auras and haste effects, and overall buffs.

im not crying.. i love my lock... but hell if blizz is gonna balance our dps around our utility i sure hope they have more plans other than changing shadow embrace to something that probably wont be refreshed unless everlasting afflictions also refreshes shadowembrace

[nexonion]

insect swarm doesnt count, scorpid sting wins

[MortuariusBC]

insect swarm doesnt count, scorpid sting wins

was just giving a comparison of possible utility... moonkin still wins over locks now especially with impr shadowbolt only effecting self

-5% hit buff on insect swarm is a pretty big jump from the old 2%

[Twistedsight]

WotLK PvE DPS:

fire lock > Boomkin > Afflic lock

don't get me wrong every raid should have a boomkin because crit aura is awesome and it never hurts to have a roaming battle rez, but the math is simple doing 1 fire lock rotation = 429 BASE DPS, that's assuming average spell damage on all spells no bns dmg and no crit. of 15.5 secs

2.5 immolate cast plus 6 2sec incinerates followed by conflag = 6660 spell dmg / 15.5 = 429.677419........

[MortuariusBC]

WotLK PvE DPS:

fire lock > Boomkin > Afflic lock

don't get me wrong every raid should have a boomkin because crit aura is awesome and it never hurts to have a roaming battle rez, but the math is simple doing 1 fire lock rotation = 429 BASE DPS, that's assuming average spell damage on all spells no bns dmg and no crit. of 15.5 secs

2.5 immolate cast plus 6 2sec incinerates followed by conflag = 6660 spell dmg / 15.5 = 429.677419........

wasnt talking about destro lock

i was looking at dps specs that are classified as utility by blizzard and given less overall dps due to their utility. Blizzard stated affliction will not do as much damage as destr because of the utility it offers, im simply comparing our less dps more utility spec to another classes utility

[Shazea]

geez dude... your research is horrible!

you forgot to mention

Improved Faerie Fire: Causes spells cast at the target to have +3% spell hit. (ofc raidwide and same as Misery now, poor spriests)

you should edit your post and add that... to be correct with your evaluation, ya know? ;>

[ascote]

And lets not forget that moonkin can keep most of these debuffs up all of the time, while lock has a 1 curse limit.

[MortuariusBC]

And lets not forget that moonkin can keep most of these debuffs up all of the time, while lock has a 1 curse limit.

thats one of my many points... wtf is blizzard thinking i really hope they remove malediction and make affliction a real dps tree

[ascote]

I'd rather be utility.

[MortuariusBC]

I'd rather be utility.

i dont mind being utility... but appearently blizzard is making other classes better utility... so either give us more or take it away and let me be a true dpser

[sahria]

not all speccs will be as raid viable as other speccs, just as some speccs won't be as pvp viable as other speccs.

and rememebr.

ITS BETA!

things have and will be changed.
instea dof whining make some suggestions.

[MortuariusBC]

not all speccs will be as raid viable as other speccs, just as some speccs won't be as pvp viable as other speccs.

and rememebr.

ITS BETA!

things have and will be changed.
instea dof whining make some suggestions.

i know its beta... the sad part is the closer we get to beta's end the worse the situation seems to get. blizzard said locks were being looked into... and it turns out they take away some affliction utility and give us a not so well thought out talent in its place

some specs arent viable for pve... i know thats how things are now, but guess what, blizzard wanted to make all specs viable. Think they need a lot more work imo.

[Raptorg]

I'd rather be utility.

i don't tbh

i want to be pure and raw dps.. it fits the warlock deal

i only want buffs and debuffs that affect me, not others..
it's the warlock way

[Shazea]

same

besides, why did blizzard even mention affliction in pve as "utility tree"?
apart from malediction... there isn't really much left to be honest

[Chimpzilla]

brez vs soulstone
FF vs curse of reck (not if we use another curse)
moonkin crit vs ....
earth and moon vs curse of elements w/malediction (not if we use another curse)
insect swarm vs ....
mark of the wild vs unending breath and detect invis? maybe pet buff
improved moonkin aura haste vs ....
innervate vs ....
... vs healthstones

I think you've got some fairly valid points, but there are probably some comparisons you've overlooked as you've included some core druids abilities in there rather then moonkin specific ones like battle res and innervate. You chose not to compare innervate to lifetap/drainlife for some odd reason, but locks have always been rather mana efficient. Sure they can't lifetap for someone else, but generally druids don't get the pleasure of putting innervates on many classes anyway (very few classes have the spirit tho make it useful).

As for a comparison to healthstones druids can heal people, but this will definitely put a dent in whatever dps they are doing, and involves dropping out of moonkin form. In addition healthstones provide a nice user activated heal which can be nice for fights like say Najentus or Aran where you may or may not suffer quite a bit of burst damage to the raid at one time. I know personally I like having all 3 healthstones for raids and when I'm tanking on my warrior they've saved my life countless times.

Mark of the wild is honestly a crappy buff, and generally its gonna be the resto druids that are in charge of MotW and not moonkins. Although some do pick up the improved version it is a resto talent. I'd really rather have an imp in my group, and I believe there is some fel int buff that personally seems a tad more attractive then MotW. And I am aware that this fel int buff can be overridden by AI, but it still seems nice and there isn't always a mage around.

You chose to ignore things like crowd control for some reason. But warlocks have banish / fear / enslave and druids get cyclone / hibernate / roots. A nice little bit of variety between the two, and honestly not sure what I'd rather have. I know in PvE those warlock options seem nicer then the druids, but in PvP it seems to be more of a toss up. Although personally I hate those fear spamming locks to death.

Anyway, I don't really feel like rambling on. Moonkin have needed a lot of help and finally getting some attention. They have always been a redheaded step child in raids. Clearly they got buffed in such a manner that they will most likely lock themselves into a raid spot no problem, and I'm sure all 3 specs of druids will find their way into a raid. I'm not incredibly familiar with warlocks to suggest some changes, so I think really rather then complaining about moonkins being useful, come up with ideas for what would make the AFF warlock more wanted or useful. Everybody deserves a shot in the raid.

[Shazea]

He chose not to compare innervate to Lifetap/Drain Life because it is completely irrelevant.
He is comparing raid utility and for some odd reason you try to compare basic class design.
It's like comparing Mages Manastones to innervate.
Lifetap and Manastone mechanics simply allow the user to manage their manapool without going oom.
Warlocks and Mages work that way and this has nothing to do with raid utility.

If innervate would only work on yourself, then he wouldn't consider it as a raid utility.
But!... The simple fact that you are able to apply Innervate on almost everyone in your raid to boost his/her mana... could be considered as raid utility, don't you think?

And i do not want to be mean but you should get your facts straight if you want to discuss things:
-> MotW: increasing armor by 750, all attributes by 37 and all resistances by 54
-> and improved: increasing armor by 1050, all attributes by 52 and all resistances by 76
That is by no means crappy in any way since it stacks with anything while Imps Stamina buff is changed to a flat hp increase which does not stack with commanding shout.
Same goes for Fel Intellect, changed from percentage to a flat amount of Intellect and Spirit, which again does not stack with Arcane Intellect or Divine Spirit.

So both are almost useless...

And saying only "some" Moonkins do pick up improved MotW and "its gonna be the resto druids that are in charge of MotW and not moonkins" is moot at best.
At least 80% of those who specc Moonkin for pve will definitely pick this talent up for at least 1 of 3 reasons:
1) Omen of Clarity
2) Master Shapeshifter (4% more Spell Damage in Moonkin Form)
3) Intensity

If you specc 5/5 Furor (+10% Intellect in Moonkin) and 3/3 Natural Shapeshifter (prereq for Master Shapeshifter) you have 2 points left... and Nature's Focus, Sublety and Naturalist are nothing for PvE Moonkins.


That being said i want to mention that my main was Druid for a long long time, got bored, switched to Warlock recently and i do not want the druid class to get nerfed in any aspect, because I know the hard times the class had in the past and i know Moonkin deserved some love.

So my suggestion would be to buff all (not only Warlocks) dps trees with little to no utility.

[DreamOfTheRood]

Y'know, I'm sure you put a lot of effort into creating that post, but you could also do a little work on making it legible for your readers. Commas, periods and the like. It would be nice.

[ascote]

Sure, moonkins needed some love, but so do affliction locks, and they GAVE TO MOONKINS THE LOVE WE HAD. Now we're loveless bums sacrificed to the hibrid hunger for power.

[CyborgNorth]

FEAR

/thread

[ascote]

ROOT

/thread