Moonkin vs affliction lock

[Panoramixe]

just looking at the pvp gear... moonkin/resto could very well use the same gear.. the difference on the 80 arena gear is one has spirit and one has mp/5.... of course i know its not ideal i was just going off what blizzard released

as for the bear/cat gear... blizzard clearly stated that druids will be tanking in rogue gear, with crushing blows taken off the table and mitigation/avoidance talents being tweaked to eliminate the need for leather with different stats... i know its gay... but its what blizzard is doing

id love to dps as affliction and to actually scale well with what gear will be offered... or id rather do sub par damage and get monster utility... as it looks now moonkin will do the same damage as affliction locks but have more utility... the fix needs to happen to affliction i just brought up moonkin as an example... i know moonkin are far from complete as well

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...druidnuker.jpg
pvp moonkin set
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ruidhealer.jpg
pvp healing set
At 70, yes gear is very similar. At 80 Blizz has made a lot of effort to actually not have moonkin and resto druids share gear.

Yes the person you quoted is clueless about bears in wotlk, they won't need any def at all. Whether a bear druid will be in full rogue gear is just the question though, it might as well be done with craftables and tier gear. Yes Blizzard said they intend feral druids to completely share gear with rogues, but Blizzard also said we'd get a dire cat form and that they'd balance arenas around the 5vs5 bracket.

I do agree they should add some more utility to affliction locks and not a curse for once would be impressive.

Yes a lot of balance druids, including me, are very defensive, with reason. People have looked down upon us for ages and demanded we would be inferior for no reason, we just want to be viable for once.

[Varithorn1]

THANKS FOR CONTRIBUTING! Currently, if you knew anything about affliction warlocks, you would know that they are one of the most underpowered specs in WoW, do to horrible scaling mechanics.

[Panoramixe]

How noob you are and you cry because you think moonkins are better?

Warlock most overpowered class ever

Go troll the official wow forums, you belong there. Oh wait a second I post there too, just go play runescape and leave us be.

Anyway affliction warlocks have serious issues in pve.

[Raptorg]

How noob you are and you cry because you think moonkins are better?

Warlock most overpowered class ever

taking on s3/s4 geared sl/sl warlocks in your rep/s1 gear is indeed a viable way to judge the power of a whole class

[Shazea]

Yes a lot of balance druids, including me, are very defensive, with reason.

Hey I don't blame you for that. I could even go that far and say i fully understand it since (as mentioned before: played Druid for a long time)I leveled my Druid with the only viable levelspecc in the past: Resto, and my Druid could still be considered my main because I still use him for PvE. Switched to Warlock for PvP and my goal for WotLK is to make the Warlock my main (PvP and PvE). Could have done that by now but Affliction sucks and I don't want to spam Shadowbolt for about 5-10 minutes.

As I said i don't blame you or anyone for doing that. I try to discuss things as dispassionately as possible for me with pure facts thus it somehow annoys me if people discuss things by pulling arguments out of their asses (but luckily this is not the case for the most part of this thread).
So keep discussions constructive and I'll gladly participate.


EDIT: oh and i forgot something: MortuariusBC is quite correct about Druid gear. I'd even go that far and say Restokins in WotLK will be an utter pain in the ass from a PvP point of view. Imagine if you'd have 1500 Spell Power... with changed coefficients this would equal almost 3000 +Heal on Live right now... add some mp5 and you could burst your enemies down while still being a very good healer. But this is also the case for Disc Priests, Ele Shamys with some Resto talents and Shockadins and more important: This isn't a PvP discussion

[ascote]

I stated it before but got no response, is heaven and earth really necessary for moonkin viability? I mean, did moonkins really need such a buff?

[Asmo]

I don't think it was that Moonkins themselves needed the buff, it was more along the lines of Blizz wanting to give a sp dmg buff to another class and moonkins were just lucky enough to be picked. It fits with their new, buffs across the board mentality.

[greenmasheen]

I think you've got some fairly valid points, but there are probably some comparisons you've overlooked as you've included some core druids abilities in there rather then moonkin specific ones like battle res and innervate. You chose not to compare innervate to lifetap/drainlife for some odd reason, but locks have always been rather mana efficient. Sure they can't lifetap for someone else, but generally druids don't get the pleasure of putting innervates on many classes anyway (very few classes have the spirit tho make it useful).

As for a comparison to healthstones druids can heal people, but this will definitely put a dent in whatever dps they are doing, and involves dropping out of moonkin form. In addition healthstones provide a nice user activated heal which can be nice for fights like say Najentus or Aran where you may or may not suffer quite a bit of burst damage to the raid at one time. I know personally I like having all 3 healthstones for raids and when I'm tanking on my warrior they've saved my life countless times.

Mark of the wild is honestly a crappy buff, and generally its gonna be the resto druids that are in charge of MotW and not moonkins. Although some do pick up the improved version it is a resto talent. I'd really rather have an imp in my group, and I believe there is some fel int buff that personally seems a tad more attractive then MotW. And I am aware that this fel int buff can be overridden by AI, but it still seems nice and there isn't always a mage around.

You chose to ignore things like crowd control for some reason. But warlocks have banish / fear / enslave and druids get cyclone / hibernate / roots. A nice little bit of variety between the two, and honestly not sure what I'd rather have. I know in PvE those warlock options seem nicer then the druids, but in PvP it seems to be more of a toss up. Although personally I hate those fear spamming locks to death.

Anyway, I don't really feel like rambling on. Moonkin have needed a lot of help and finally getting some attention. They have always been a redheaded step child in raids. Clearly they got buffed in such a manner that they will most likely lock themselves into a raid spot no problem, and I'm sure all 3 specs of druids will find their way into a raid. I'm not incredibly familiar with warlocks to suggest some changes, so I think really rather then complaining about moonkins being useful, come up with ideas for what would make the AFF warlock more wanted or useful. Everybody deserves a shot in the raid.

warlocks in general are not mana efficient.

affliction locks can heal self and tap down to gain mana, destro locks eat more mana than mages.

[Drlove]

I have played a druid for 4 years including pre BC when druids sucked.

Finally Druids become as good as other hybrid classes and achieve some balance
and everyone starts complaining. Balance druids can not sheep, banish, enslave
SS, summon, give out healthstones, create water and food etc. So why focus on
just the dps and buffs when other classes have their advantages? Each class has
its pros and each class has its cons. Us druids have been gimped for years and now it is a nice change to have some much wanted balance and equality.
Im sure there are other people like me out there happy with what Blizzard is doing for all
classes and sick of hearing ppl complain about the "changes"
Before passing judgement why dont you ask some folks that have played druids or another example
being a ret pally to see how they feel.

Keep up the good work BLizz.

[Shazea]

I have played a druid for 4 years including pre BC when druids sucked.

So have I, but that does not make my points more or less valid.

And by actually reading the thread you would have noticed that none of the posters really complains about Moonkins.
They all complain about Warlocks (especially Affliction) having lackluster utility and scaling issues.

You know if you want to measure the speed or power of your car compared to other cars, you simply use another fast car as unit of measurement.
If your car is too slow, you don't go and wreck the other cars engine to make your car look like it's faster than before...
That is basically what you are implying, but that is by no means the goal... -_-

(Ironically though most fast car owners in this thread tend to let their fast car look like it is slower than all facts are indicating)

I'd like to quote you here:

Be reasonable....

EDIT: hm you edited your post, no more "Be reasonable"

Before passing judgement why dont you ask some folks that have played druids

I don't think asking myself once again would make my points obsolete.
And your logic works both ways, have YOU ever played a Warlock?

[Drlove]

Yes I have a 70 warlock. Perhaps I should have stated that earlier. It is not my main
but merely an alt. To that end my comments about Warlocks and Druids are justified.
It may seem unfair that Warlocks have been changed but imo it is a reasonable and
fair change. Like I stated above Warlocks bring much more to raids that a raid buff ie
SS, HS, Summon, AOE, Imp buff, fear etc. I am not implying that Blizzard should reduce
other classes abilities to make the druid look better and nor have Blizzard done that.
Every class in the coming expansion will have gained, lost or both talents and skills.
Stop worrying about the changes that have happened, it is not a big deal in the whole
scheme of things. Just play the game and enjoy!

[Shazea]

I am not implying that Blizzard should reduce other classes abilities to make the druid look better and nor have Blizzard done that.

No, they haven't?
Last time i checked Blizzard changes Imp and Fel Hunter buff to a flat amount which does not stack anymore and is inferior to similar buffs (Arcane Intellect, Divine Spirit, Commanding Shout).

And mentioning "raid" in the same sentence and context with "Summon" and "fear"...
...because every warlock doesn't sac his/her pet at the moment in PvE, right?
Fear in a raid is very situational at best.

As for the "other raid buffs" like SS, HS, I'm pretty sure he didn't ignore them and in fact mentioned them while comparing... and the results were our utility sucks.


As mentioned before, stop pulling random Warlock spells out of your ass to make a point...

(see? i can do that too: Like I stated above Druid bring much more to raids that a raid buff ie
BRez, Roots, Cyclone, Heal, Thorns, Hibernate etc.
This is moot, and quite incorrect, like yours.)

[MortuariusBC]

Yes I have a 70 warlock. Perhaps I should have stated that earlier. It is not my main
but merely an alt. To that end my comments about Warlocks and Druids are justified.
It may seem unfair that Warlocks have been changed but imo it is a reasonable and
fair change. Like I stated above Warlocks bring much more to raids that a raid buff ie
SS, HS, Summon, AOE, Imp buff, fear etc. I am not implying that Blizzard should reduce
other classes abilities to make the druid look better and nor have Blizzard done that.
Every class in the coming expansion will have gained, lost or both talents and skills.
Stop worrying about the changes that have happened, it is not a big deal in the whole
scheme of things. Just play the game and enjoy!

thats a great idea

however

blizzard already stated affliction wont ever scale or do as much damage as destro due to its utility
the point of this thread is to show how much utility other dps class specs have compared to affliction

i do plan to play and enjoy this game. i love affliction and just hoped to enjoy it. If however blizzard doesnt balance out afflictions scaling and damage or give us back more utility than it wont be very fun when raid leaders dont really want an affliction lock in the raid. Since they removed the old shadow embrace the only utility affliction locks offer over other locks is 3% more damage on CoE which is easily replaced by a moonkin or unholy DK

[Syri]

Ahem. One thing I'd like to point out is that Shazea, you state:

And by actually reading the thread you would have noticed that none of the posters really complains about Moonkins.
They all complain about Warlocks (especially Affliction) having lackluster utility and scaling issues.

when in fact, to be quite honest, it looks the opposite from many of our points of view. The thread itself is called, "Moonkin vs affliction lock" and the impression many of us have gotten when reading this thread is just that: That you are upset that the moonkins have gotten fixes (yes, fixes, not buffs) to make them more desireable and raid-viable.

You SAY that your intention is not to complain about moonkin. But that is exactly what it looks like this thread is doing, and is the cause of most of the defensiveness you are reading here.

Had the original poster simply tried to explain that he thought afflic locks needed some love, you'd likely have seen much more support of the statement instead of such arguing as has filled the last 5 pages of this thread.

So yeah, it looks like the OP as well as yourself and several others are in fact complaining about moonkins... even though you said that is not your intention. Just thought you should know that that is how it comes off.



With regards to the rest: Yes, affliction locks need some loving. They, much like the moonkin, need some fixes, not just some buffs. They, like the moonkin, could use some personal-dps buffing. But they do NOT need to receive some massive support buff; that is exactly what blizzard is trying to avoid in Wrath. They do NOT want some class only brought for it's buffs, but instead for their dps etc.

IMO, BOTH specs still need a bit of loving, and rather a lot of polish.



Edit: And one thing I have noticed of interest... Both afflic locks AND moonkin seem to be fearing the same things - That either spec will be passed over for something else, because of a lack of utility or personal dps.

Seems to me we should all be working hard to improve our classes and specs respectively, not arguing with each other. :-X

[Shazea]

Touché.

Well to be honest it's Warlocks and Druids that I have the most knowledge about (because i play both).
So it's more or less a coincidence i guess that I participate in this discussion.

My guess would be that the OP chose especially Moonkin, because it is right now the most powerful specc in terms of raid utility.
This is, like it or not, a fact. It does not mean that I QQ about it or that I want Moonkins to get nerfed, I am just stating the obvious and people want to kill me for that it seems.
(In fact I'm excited about it, because this means I can finally LAZR PEW PEW in my raid until WotLK arrives.)


You know why fellow Druids get defensive if someone says "the most powerful specc"? Because they think just by mentioning that Blizzard will nerf them into oblivion (again, where the Moonkin specc in TBC is right now).
But no one seems to understand that it could also mean that the specc is the most complete at the moment (not saying they are 100% done), and others have to follow.

Instead of acknowledgement, people try to defend their precious specc by stating nonsense like "our raid utility isn't THAT great, because you forgot you have Life Tap!" just to have any point at all and I somehow flame them for doing that.
(I did the same denial back earlier with my Druid when TBC just started and Bear was nerfed quite hardcore. So I guess i know what I'm talking about )
And that is basically the reason you get the impression all my posts are Druid hate speech. I am stating the obvious and you don't like the idea (well, you like it, but you don't want others to talk about that, because you think the nerfbat could hit you hard if someone ever mentions it and i hope this will not be the case.)

[MortuariusBC]

Touché.

Well to be honest it's Warlocks and Druids that I have the most knowledge about (because i play both).
So it's more or less a coincidence i guess that I participate in this discussion.

My guess would be that the OP chose especially Moonkin, because it is right now the most powerful specc in terms of raid utility.
This is, like it or not, a fact. It does not mean that I QQ about it or that I want Moonkins to get nerfed, I am just stating the obvious and people want to kill me for that it seems.
(In fact I'm excited about it, because this means I can finally LAZR PEW PEW in my raid until WotLK arrives.)


You know why fellow Druids get defensive if someone says "the most powerful specc"? Because they think just by mentioning that Blizzard will nerf them into oblivion (again, where the Moonkin specc in TBC is right now).
But no one seems to understand that it could also mean that the specc is the most complete at the moment (not saying they are 100% done), and others have to follow.

Instead of acknowledgement, people try to defend their precious specc by stating nonsense like "our raid utility isn't THAT great, because you forgot you have Life Tap!" just to have any point at all and I somehow flame them for doing that.
(I did the same denial back earlier with my Druid when TBC just started and Bear was nerfed quite hardcore. So I guess i know what I'm talking about )
And that is basically the reason you get the impression all my posts are Druid hate speech. I am stating the obvious and you don't like the idea (well, you like it, but you don't want others to talk about that, because you think the nerfbat could hit you hard if someone ever mentions it and i hope this will not be the case.)

You're right... im sorry some moonkin got defensive at this topic
1) I just chose moonkin because i happened to have one and they have debuffs that compare
2) blizzard doesnt read these forums anyways so all you QQers thinking moonkin will get nerfed because i post this thread are dumb

now back on topic

i could just as easily said "affliction lock vs unholy dk" they get the same 13% debuff on magic + the option to give the raid 20% haste or the possibility of giving the raid small heals or giving the tank 2% health back everytime the boss hits him/her.

The whole topic is simply to discuss blizzards vision or intention with affliction. The fact that they continue to deny scaleability of affliction spells due to what they give as an excuse " you have plenty of utility"

[Syri]

you keep saying "you" and I keep wondering if you mean me personally... because I certainly never jumped up and started screaming about anything...

however, keep in mind that while many afflic locks fear being replaced by moonkins, we fear the same.

Our hit chance got nerfed to just encompassing spell hit... which a shadow priest can do without bothering to cast.

Our 5% -hit can be done with a hunter sting; our haste can be provided by a ret paladin, and our crit.. I can't remember where off the top of my head that can also be supplied. As for earth and moon... iirc before it got buffed this last build, it was worth less for 5 points at the END of our tree than your un-talented coe. Now that it's been buffed, it is quite impressive, and a nice utility to have - I hope afflic locks get something as tasty, be it to personal dps (though now you can utilize that imp coa) or to some form of utility, to bring it on par with the utilities we offer.

blizzard doesnt read these forums anyways so all you QQers thinking moonkin will get nerfed because i post this thread are dumb

Note: calling people dumb for pointing out WHY people are defensive seems rather childish. I don't fear that blizzard will nerf anything from reading these forums (though assuming they don't read them at all might be a little silly, because you never know what might catch a dev's fancy), but I did want to explain why moonkin players were a bit up in arms. Wasn't really necessary to resort to namecalling... though that's just imo.



But as you so aptly put it... "back on topic."

What is it you would specifically like to see with regards to affliction locks? What do you want to see changed?

Don't compare to me what someone else has that you don't... the grass is always greener on the other side. Tell me what you WANT. What would make the class playable and fun for you again. What you believe would bring viability to your spec in a raid?

(and then perhaps take these to your fellow warlocks who are in beta, and ask them to post it where it matters?)

What is it exactly that you want?

[MortuariusBC]

you keep saying "you" and I keep wondering if you mean me personally... because I certainly never jumped up and started screaming about anything...

however, keep in mind that while many afflic locks fear being replaced by moonkins, we fear the same.

Our hit chance got nerfed to just encompassing spell hit... which a shadow priest can do without bothering to cast.

Our 5% -hit can be done with a hunter sting; our haste can be provided by a ret paladin, and our crit.. I can't remember where off the top of my head that can also be supplied. As for earth and moon... iirc before it got buffed this last build, it was worth less for 5 points at the END of our tree than your un-talented coe. Now that it's been buffed, it is quite impressive, and a nice utility to have - I hope afflic locks get something as tasty, be it to personal dps (though now you can utilize that imp coa) or to some form of utility, to bring it on par with the utilities we offer.

Note: calling people dumb for pointing out WHY people are defensive seems rather childish. I don't fear that blizzard will nerf anything from reading these forums (though assuming they don't read them at all might be a little silly, because you never know what might catch a dev's fancy), but I did want to explain why moonkin players were a bit up in arms.

Namecalling here was unnecessary in my opinion.




But as you so aptly put it... "back on topic."

What is it you would specifically like to see with regards to affliction locks? What do you want to see changed?

Don't compare to me what someone else has that you don't... the grass is always greener on the other side. Tell me what you WANT. What would make the class playable and fun for you again. What you believe would bring viability to your spec in a raid?

(and then perhaps take these to your fellow warlocks who are in beta, and ask them to post it where it matters?)

What is it exactly that you want?

Im sorry did i specifically call you dumb?
If you took it like that than maybe you are one of the QQers i was refering to.

You are comparing all of your utility to many classes, im comparing all of affliction utility to one class. If your dps is equal or close to ours ( and it certainly will outscale affliction) than theres no reason to take an affliction lock to a raid.

Once again you feel i am personally attacking mookin or ppl that play moonkin. I am simply making a comparison to a class that has similar utility if not the same

Here again is why i chose moonkin

earth and moon now = to curse of elements with malediction
however curse of elements requires us to not use a dps curse

FF = curse of reck
however CoR requires us not to use a dps curse

well theres goes affliction utility just from moonkin alone. not to mention the haste and crit you also bring. i could very well have chosen a hunter to compare to but it really doesnt matter.

Now what has blizzard done to fix our affliction tree.... given us a replacement for the -5% physical damage debuff ( there goes our compareable utility to -5% hit from IS)

and the dps talent they give us procs on CoA (wont be using it since we have to use CoE) and corruption (refreshes with everlasting afflictions so we wont be recasting)

Why did i post this thread? Well it was so blizzard nerfs all you dirty druids to hell! no jk i love my druid. It was so maybe a beta tester can post on the beta forums the concern in regards to scaling and utility.

If you feel my post is going to hurt your moonkin you really mistaken i just want to have my affliction lock's role in this game solidified, make me a crazy debuffer or give me damage, but quit giving other classes the utility we have without sacrificing our personal damage or other utility. The curse system needs a revamp imp or affliction needs a higher talent that allows more than 1 curse at a time

[Shazea]

Oh there are several suggestions already mentioned to fix scaling issues for example.

Like dots scale with haste the same way as channeling spells: shorten the duration while maintaining the damage (faster ticks).
Or your Spell Crit chance is also a damage multipier for your dots (ex: 15% crit would mean 15% more damage with dots).
Let dots basically work the same way direct cast spells work in terms of scaling. This would help not only Warlocks but Shadow Priests aswell.
Well this could lead to another debate. Especially Druids would want their hots to work that way, too then, I guess, so I'd say it's easier to fix it by giving Affliction dots a higher coefficient *shrug*.

Personally I don't want to be an utility class, I want to have a considerable amount of raid dps to justify my raid spot.

[Tech]

Equally Geared

Pure DPS Class > Hybrid DPS Class

At DPS, period.

I am glad Boomkins got some love, they needed it.

Blizz has already stated they are giving warlocks another pass over right now and I am confident they have some tricks up there sleeve to make us happy. This is still Beta people...

Affliction has always been the spec most most fun for me to play despite our lack of end game scaling, Shadow Bolt spam got old fast.

Lets save the flame wars until the tree's and talents are complete?