Question for Locks (re: afflic)

[ant1pathy]

First off, I'm asking this question in all seriousness with no "tongue in cheek" about it. I hope this does NOT turn into a flame fest of "U SUK NO U," and that I can get my question answered in a reasonable, well articulated manner. Yeah, here's hoping.

Ahem. That said, my big question:

Why do most (some?) Warlocks feel that they have a RIGHT to have Affliction based PvE specs put out the same kind of damage as a Destro or hybrid Destro spec? It seems that there are a lot of thread about buffing Affliction damage because it's subpar to Destro (very true, no scaling with crit/haste is Bad), but any time the suggestion that they spec to a PvE Destro based one it's met with cries of "OMG NO WAI AFFLIC 4 LIFE!"
I play a Mage, and I LOVE the playstyle of Arcane. I loved my Arc/Frost spec to death, but was frustrated by it's inability to compete due to lack of group/raid support and had to abandon it. While I will suggest changes and hope that it gets buffed to viability, I STILL spec Fire in order to keep my dps where it's expected for my class at the level I'm raiding.
It seems that Warlocks (and Paladins, but don't get me started there) are among the few classes that insistently demand that they have their personal favorite trees buffed and refuse to accept the fact that you sometimes have to make a choice between "favorite tree" and "best tree for doing what you're brought to raids for," which every class has to make.

Anyway, I hope I can get some serious answers here, and that the mods will perhaps assist me in keeping this civil. Cheers.

[Anubi]

well think is mosltly bout how u like to play the class

the 3 talent trees are way different as play stile other then the pure dps/utility stuffs

affli dots destru DD demo misc with pet damage.

i prefer affly myself as way to play but well as u have to respech destro for end game raiding and also for 5 men where dots sucks pretty bad.

i suppose that as many said the problem is bout scaling with gear.
i dont know cause i'm not a master of teoricrafting but well if just blizz would give 2 end game sets to locks one with crit hast stuffs on it and the other with some more + damage maybe the scaling with gear problem wpould be solved considering destro will always prefer some more crit haste cause they get full advantages from it and affly would go for the +damge gears.

but at the end things are still in beta and many gears ability and talents are gonna be reworked.

[Maenetus]

because ideally all 30 specs have roles in PvE and PvP

[ant1pathy]

I understand the DESIRE to play Afflic (I love playing my mid 50's Lock as Afflic), but literally EVERY other class has to make a choice about a PvE vs. PvP spec. Rogues? Sassy is very fun to play, Sub is hilarious with SS, but if you want to PvE you spec Combat and SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP OR THE BUNNY GETS IT. Warrior? Tank or spec Fury. Mage? Fire. Hunter? Depends on gear, but Marks for direct damage and Survival for buffing the group. Yet I see very little in other forums about how their favorite specs are being DESTROYED and NEED MOAR BUFFS as bad as the Warlock forums.

[Maenetus]

Warrior? Tank or spec Fury.

Arms does better RDPS than fury


but more to the point, current failing are no excuse for future failings.


DKs are being designed to DPS, Tank, and PvP in all three trees.

why shouldn't warlocks raid in all three trees?

[Mayhem]

yea the big whiners came last time the lock was OP, beginning of tbc

and now, they just wont leave and let the old warlocks alone in their dark desires of killing every human, beast, bunny and cute little sheep

[ant1pathy]

Arms does better RDPS than fury

Eh. One is, but that does depend on your raid makeup and the boss you're fighting.

but more to the point, current failing are no excuse for future failings.

No, but there's just so much MORE whine, with the exception of Ret pallys, by Affliction locks.

DKs are being designed to DPS, Tank, and PvP in all three trees.

why shouldn't warlocks raid in all three trees?

DK's are a new class, and will be nerfed into line with all the others. And each tree will still have a focus, they might just be more viable in each.

[Sarevokcz]

Arms does better RDPS than fury


but more to the point, current failing are no excuse for future failings.


DKs are being designed to DPS, Tank, and PvP in all three trees.

why shouldn't warlocks raid in all three trees?

why shouldnt ALL classes raid in all 3 specs?

[ant1pathy]

why shouldnt ALL classes raid in all 3 specs?

"Jack of all trades, master of none."

And a raid of 24 Shamans and 1 Tank just doesn't appeal to me.

[Mayhem]

"Jack of all trades, master of none."

And a raid of 24 Shamans and 1 Tank just doesn't appeal to me.

right, 25 druids appeal much more

[ant1pathy]

right, 25 druids appeal much more

Pretty much. Or Paladins, but no one likes them.

[Nilaihah]

I think the issue is mostly that Aff doesn't have a niche at all. Currently sucks for PvP and sucks for PvE. I guess it is the same issue that Arcane has - and I'd vouch for Arcane to be put competitively up there in either PvP or PvE

I think Warlocks and Mages have the same particularity of having a "mix" tree. Fire and Frost are the main trees, Arcane being the mixer. Same for Affliction and locks.

Although I can't say much, I was doing really competitive damage Aff spec'ed - admittedly I didn't get to BT/SW with my 'lock, I swapped to my Ret Paladin at that stage.

Speaking of which... Paladins want to be competitive with Ret because its their only DPS tree. If the Ret tree doesn't perform then it becomes a completely useless tree - like it happened to be for the longest.

[Mayhem]

maybe your ret-tree is the mixer

:

[ant1pathy]

I think the issue is mostly that Aff doesn't have a niche at all. Currently sucks for PvP and sucks for PvE. I guess it is the same issue that Arcane has - and I'd vouch for Arcane to be put competitively up there in either PvP or PvE

I think Warlocks and Mages have the same particularity of having a "mix" tree. Fire and Frost are the main trees, Arcane being the mixer. Same for Affliction and locks.

I think I see where you all are coming from now. Thank you.

Speaking of which... Paladins want to be competitive with Ret because its their only DPS tree. If the Ret tree doesn't perform then it becomes a completely useless tree - like it happened to be for the longest.

Did people really roll Paladins to spec Ret? It's a tanking or healing class, with the ability to group support in a quasi-dps mode as well. Paladins have the best buffs, are the best MT healers, best multi-mob tanks, and STILL want to be competitive dps? Why not give them stealth and group heals and just remove all the other classes :P?

[Maenetus]

why shouldnt ALL classes raid in all 3 specs?

because realistically it's pretty much impossible to balance. The designers should work towards the ideal, but no one should except them to reach it.

some specs are hard sells for PvE, like disc priests, warrior/druid tanks really hate damage shields, paladin tanks don't like them. Only DK tanks don't care. But that doesn't mean the designers have given up on PvE disc, it just means it's understandable if disc is weak in PvE.

For affliction there's less reason for it to be weak in PvE. While affliction is fundamentally weak on short trash fights, there's no reason for it not to be strong on long boss fights.

[Sarevokcz]

Pretty much. Or Paladins, but no one likes them.

so basically, pure classes DESERVE the right be pve viable withh all 3 specs + one or maybe two even for pvp (since i doubt u would like to sacrifice pve viability for pve purposes) but hybrids DO NOT deserve to raid with all 3 speccs, because, there could be tries to do 25mans with only 1 or 2 classes? so hybrids are allowed to have 2 pve specs, one of them being healing spec, and 1 pvp spec? what the hell are u smoking? can i have ur weed please? there is no way single or double class 25man raid would be efficient, since it will miss many many buffs anyway

im all up for locks having 3 pve viable specs, if every other class can have it too, but dont make yourself like someone on pedestal, whos class deserves more than others

[Maenetus]

Why not give them stealth and group heals and just remove all the other classes :P?

...druids have stealth and are getting a group heal...

but some people prefer affliction over balance

[Mayhem]

why are u talking about 3 pve speccs for locks? demo/destro (as for one specc) and the other 2 are? what? demo? lol? or ehm affliction? uhm no see topic..

so basically locks have 1 out of 3 speccs

hum yay, but guess what, the old locks live with it cuz still we kick your asses

[wabun]

the thing is:
1.) Mage + Fire = Mage
Warlock + Destro = Strange Mage
Most Warlocks feel that affliction or demo is the real, the original warlock and destro is just some kind of freaking mage.
2.) Mages do burst-dmg = short high dmg peak but lower dmg as the battle lasts longer.
Affliction Warlocks start slow, built up their dmg but in exchange for the lack of burst their dmg should be supirior when they have all their dots up and their rotation going.

thats not what it is now but that is what the classes/specs where originaly designed for and thats why affliction Warlocks feel they should be top in dps in long boss fights. they can make us suck at low hp trash as much as they want but we think dots should be the best dps when it comes to long fights

- that was just what we warlocks, or at least i who played WL form first WoW beta on, think. not that its really an opinion i fight for but its the feeling we have deep inside our corrupted souls. so don´t flame me OP and so on. i just wanted to give you a look from the other side, so you can understand our urge for power.

[ant1pathy]

I completely understand the desire to spec Afflic, and hating being forced into Destro, and the desire to scale well and all of that. What I can't get is the amount of complaint that seems to be missing from most other classes. That's what confuses me.