Intended DPS for all classes

[rimmer]

Smaller differences is great, but it's a thin line. If they bring hybrid/buff DPS too close to Rogue/Mage/Hunter/Warlock there is no incentive to bring a pure DPS class anymore. If they make all DPS even, as some here suggested, everyone would end up with the same ammount and strength in buffs, and that would be really boring.

yes there would be a reason, a good example is rogues vs druids. say they had the same dps, if you stack druids they dont gain any benefit from each other because they already give themselves lotp, stack rogues alone and they dont buff eachother either. take on 1 druid and 4 rogues and you now have 1 druid at 100% and 4 rogues at 100% +5% more crit [edit: plus higher dps from mangle/rupture synergy].

you still get more benefit from stacking receivers rather than givers (if that makes sense) but the difference will be your not completely gimping yourself if you can only find 5 druids instead of 4 rogues.

[b1t]

Yes, you should, if you prefer hunters. I'm not the thinker here, Blizzard designed all this. I'm just analyzing it, and this is what it looks like now.

[kartu3]

Yes, you should, if you prefer hunters. I'm not the thinker here, Blizzard designed all this.

No, Blizzard didn't design DPS distribution from the first post, if this is what you mean, it actually contradicts _announced_ goal from Blizzard, that you would be able to replace any class/build easiely and never will _have_to_ bring another.

[Ulrik.]

List doesn´t seem correct at all to me, anch shaman at 70% with elemental shaman and retri pally.

[Sarevokcz]

This list reflects where the classes SHOULD be and hopefully will be. Not where they will be if beta go live now. A class that brings alot of buffs (enhancement shaman) shoudn't do the same personal dps as a fire mage or a beastmastery hunter for example.

and specc like eleshaman, which brings hardly anything at all should be in higher bracket for sure, also feral druid should be in lover bracket, since he can OT in smae build very effectively

[Deleted]

On the other hand - If we have two classes bringing the exact same same personal DPS while on of them brings 400 raid DPS extra. Doesn't matter if the extra raid dps stacks or not, he will always be the better choice, assuming equal skill.

No, he won't. You're comparing two people while you should be looking at the whole raid. You don't care whichever guy you take because there's already somebody else in the raid bringing you those extra 400 raid dps.

Take a raid with 3 tanks, 8 healers and 14 dps. Healers and tanks + 3-4 "buff" classes should already give you at least 1 version of all buffs you want. That leaves you with 10 dps slot of which ANY class you could find will bring a buff that's already present in the group.
Whatever raid you build, unless you exclude 3-4 classes from it, you are going to get all your synergies 3 or 4 times over. And the consequence of that is that you simply don't have to care about synergies anymore.

Edit :

If an Shaman, or Druid, or Pally does within 5% dps of a Rogue/Mage/Lock/Hunter, why bother bringing the later 4 classes? Wouldn't you rather have extra Bl/Hero or extra Brez+innervate or LoH/BoP and extra DI's for wipes? Why BOTHER with pure classes if hybrids can do everything they can, and another role as well (albeit gimped)?

BL/Hero : sated debuff
LoH : of course, it's used that often even now, it's completely encounter breaking.
BoP : rarely makes or breaks a raid (overagroing is bad and using it in boss fights is very rare/not essential to beat it)
DI's : faster wipe recovery, not essential
Innervate : does stack well, but there'll be several raid replenishment added anyway. That plus the current mana situation makes me think that mana will be much less of a problem in wotlk making innervate less usefull
Brez : very usefull, but mostly for learning, you aren't supposed to die that often (Azgalor/Teron/... aside). Would you balance your raid for 2 fights ?

That and you naturally neglect to mention all the little things that all the class you don't mention can bring too, naturally (which aren't usually mentionned as synergies/raid buffs because they aren't, but aren't different from those you mentionned really). Kicks, silence, counterspells, dispells, ...

Oh, and i forgot : THERE IS NO PURE CLASS IN WOTLK.

[Fighterx]

No, he won't. You're comparing two people while you should be looking at the whole raid. You don't care whichever guy you take because there's already somebody else in the raid bringing you those extra 400 raid dps.

Take a raid with 3 tanks, 8 healers and 14 dps. Healers and tanks + 3-4 "buff" classes should already give you at least 1 version of all buffs you want. That leaves you with 10 dps slot of which ANY class you could find will bring a buff that's already present in the group.
Whatever raid you build, unless you exclude 3-4 classes from it, you are going to get all your synergies 3 or 4 times over. And the consequence of that is that you simply don't have to care about synergies anymore.

Edit :BL/Hero : sated debuff
LoH : of course, it's used that often even now, it's completely encounter breaking.
BoP : rarely makes or breaks a raid (overagroing is bad and using it in boss fights is very rare/not essential to beat it)
DI's : faster wipe recovery, not essential
Innervate : does stack well, but there'll be several raid replenishment added anyway. That plus the current mana situation makes me think that mana will be much less of a problem in wotlk making innervate less usefull
Brez : very usefull, but mostly for learning, you aren't supposed to die that often (Azgalor/Teron/... aside). Would you balance your raid for 2 fights ?

That and you naturally neglect to mention all the little things that all the class you don't mention can bring too, naturally (which aren't usually mentionned as synergies/raid buffs because they aren't, but aren't different from those you mentionned really). Kicks, silence, counterspells, dispells, ...

Oh, and i forgot : THERE IS NO PURE CLASS IN WOTLK.

I just skimmed this post, but I think i agree with this guy. Once you have your buff classes you can fill the raid with whatever you want. If hybrids are stuck doing 80% of a rogues dps wont raids just turn into the pre-BC world of roguecraft that it used to be (at least it was in my case :S). Once you have your buff classes, why lose that 20% dps on each additional hybrid you bring... Therefore: if hybrids do less dps at all it will probably be like 95%+ of a rogue's dps or with the new rogue changes possibly matching. The new rogue skill that gives 15% more damage to someone else and also gives them your threat is awesome for two reasons: 1, the tank can get huge threat burst off the bat from this and MD, also later in the fight if threat isnt a problem and it looks like enrage (or berzerk) timer is coming close, you can start using this skill on like hunters who have low threat after a few FDs. Great raid utility. Possibly rogues wont be #1 anymore.

[Scipii12]

Smaller differences is great, but it's a thin line. If they bring hybrid/buff DPS too close to Rogue/Mage/Hunter/Warlock there is no incentive to bring a pure DPS class anymore. If they make all DPS even, as some here suggested, everyone would end up with the same ammount and strength in buffs, and that would be really boring.

Since the buffs all do not stack any longer, there is really no incentive to bring any more classes than are necessary for the buffs you want. That means that after you get your buffs the rest of the spots can be filled by anyone if they have equal DPS not based on skill. The point of it is not to have an incentive for the other class, the point is to be able to pick between player A (whose level of skill is 7) and player B (whose level of skill is 9) without having to worry what his/her class is. You can pick the best players. I think that in this case the allowable DPS range should not vary by more than 5-7% to make up for some buffing utility and only that amount because once again the buffs will not stack therefore if you have one of that buff already the next player is not necessary for the buff and would serve no purpose if their DPS was considerably less.

[mutantboy]

Lucky the OP is not tuning raids in wrath - if he was then huge number of the current raiders would either quit or go with one of his OP classes. He would also utterly destroy PvP - kinda like it currently is
This would of course leave us with stacked raids in the way we have now - precisely the thing that Blizz is trying to get rid of.

get it through your heads that if you make classes do 20% more damage than others you will continue to have crap PvP experiences through stupidly OP classes and raids stacked with all the OP classes

Your chart is stupid and takes us backward about 2 years

[exdeath202]

Lucky the OP is not tuning raids in wrath - if he was then huge number of the current raiders would either quit or go with one of his OP classes. He would also utterly destroy PvP - kinda like it currently is
This would of course leave us with stacked raids in the way we have now - precisely the thing that Blizz is trying to get rid of.

get it through your heads that if you make classes do 20% more damage than others you will continue to have crap PvP experiences through stupidly OP classes and raids stacked with all the OP classes

Your chart is stupid and takes us backward about 2 years

Rigth now some classes that bring buffs are doing a lot more damage than others that dont, ask mages vs locks for an example. Thats unfair, on top of that since when is being OP in PVP related to dps while in raid? resto druid dont even dps to put an example. If every class had equal dps, classes with less armor and less defensive skills would be in great disadvantage.

[nazrakin]

I think the problem is that people are comparing single specs to an entire CLASS.

Warlocks, Rogues, Mages, and Hunters SHOULD be more stackable in the DPS role. Between them they are 12 out of 19 DPS capable specs. The other classes can achieve their stackability from other raid roles. So you don't get 3 Ret Pallies in the group, but you may have a Ret Pally, Holy Pally, and a Prot Pally. Might not pick up a second Shadow Priest, but maybe you get a Holy and/or disc Priest for Healing.

[Fighterx]

Rigth now some classes that bring buffs are doing a lot more damage than others that dont, ask mages vs locks for an example. Thats unfair, on top of that since when is being OP in PVP related to dps while in raid? resto druid dont even dps to put an example. If every class had equal dps, classes with less armor and less defensive skills would be in great disadvantage.

not really... all classes bring something to raids besides just dps. So you are saying the classes with more defensive capability should be doing the least damage? so how do you decide that? are you talking boss fights?

[kartu3]

I think the problem is that people are comparing single specs to an entire CLASS.

Warlocks, Rogues, Mages, and Hunters SHOULD be more stackable in the DPS role. Between them they are 12 out of 19 DPS capable specs. The other classes can achieve their stackability from other raid roles. So you don't get 3 Ret Pallies in the group, but you may have a Ret Pally, Holy Pally, and a Prot Pally. Might not pick up a second Shadow Priest, but maybe you get a Holy and/or disc Priest for Healing.

We are talking about you should be able to get another SP or retradin, without sacrificing significant amounts of raid DPS.

[Sarevokcz]

not really... all classes bring something to raids besides just dps. So you are saying the classes with more defensive capability should be doing the least damage? so how do you decide that? are you talking boss fights?

true, all classes bring something else to raid besides dps (and buffs), the problem is, for most of the classes, more of them u bring, more "something else" u got. except shaman