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  1. #61

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    Yeah, Kings is the only unique extended buff we can give. Our "Hand of" buffs are nice, and we'll work them into our rotations, but they can't be relied upon.

    Really though, Kings seems to be more of a Prot only talent. I've played around on the beta as all three specs, and there's no reason for ret to get it, and holy might go into the ret tree now, instead of the prot tree - both ret and holy have to "waste" five talent points on that second teir just to get Kings.

    Seems a bit to much to ask for now that Prot pallys will be around for a while.

  2. #62

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    With Glyphs, we can still get more buffs that others cannot provide..

    Glyph of Blessing of Might Unknown ??? Your Blessing of Might also grants offensive spell power equal to 10% of the attack power it grants.

    And I consider the Wisdom "Debuff" a mob receives from judgement to be an acceptable Buff to the raid.

  3. #63

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolySdrJR
    The only buffs that aren't duplicated right now are Kings and MotW - IMO these may very well be equalized together soon - and Fort, which remains the only stamina only buff.
    Warlock's Imp Stamina Buff?

    Blood Pact - A group passive effect that gives you a stamina boost. This is often the main reason an imp is used in an instance or raid. If you plan on doing a lot of group work, you will be asked to use the imp soley for this effect.
    "My rage bar is blue, and I start the fight pissed!" - Battlecry of the Ret Paladin.
    "The best defense is a good offense." - Motto of the Ret Paladin.
    River Below - Billy Talent - Theme Song of the Ret Paladin.

    DK Death Strike Tanking
    The Power of Avoidance! - DK Tank Required Reading
    DK AP Coefficients
    DK Threat Values

    Aurich von Deathstrike

  4. #64

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    Yes, the JoW grants on average one mana pot's worth of mana to each raid member in a 5 minute fight. More than that if the if the fight lasts longer...

    And I'm not sure about glyphed BoM yet, it would be nice if it wasn't duplicated by something, but I'm guessing that it will be.

    JoW and JoL are the only two that are needed anymore, a holy pally can do JoW. But it would be difficult to do (and it currently costs 5 talent points to get the haste buff that would maintain the pally's current heal through-put - which is another issue all-together), and Prot pally's will do JoL.

    I dunno if JoJ will be needed in a raid setting, it would be nice, but it doesn't seem like it ever would be. And if it was REQUIRED, then you would see more classes with it anyway, so I think it would stay as a leveling Judgement. I personally don't mind mobs running and getting friends though, less gathering for me to do... ;-)

    And Blood Pact is now a health buff. Not stamina, health. And the last time I raided with a warlock that didn't sacrifice his demon was in KZ...

    Edit: Holy Pally talents, oops...

  5. #65

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montoya
    Warlock's Imp Stamina Buff?

    Blood Pact - A group passive effect that gives you a stamina boost. This is often the main reason an imp is used in an instance or raid. If you plan on doing a lot of group work, you will be asked to use the imp soley for this effect.
    Blood Pact no longer stacks with Commanding Shout (Warrior).

    I dunno about the Glyphed BoM either but is an interesting extra buff for casters.

    As for Judge Light/Wisdom, It is a class ability unique to use. I doubt they will give that to other classes since its a 4 sec Cd. It will never be "needed" but is defintely welcome. I personally will want a ret pally for Wisdom while the tank does light. Why? Ret will have more combined AP/SP than a prot. Wisdom is more beneficial than light. JoJ is more PVP anyways... /lol @ drood

  6. #66

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Vikai
    As for Judge Light/Wisdom, It is a class ability unique to use.
    I sure hope not, can you imagine the QQ if it is no longer unique! Boil it all down, if pally's can do comparitive DPS as other DPS classes (still iffy) and our only unique ability is JoW - then it's worth bringing one ret pally. Specifically, the one with the highest AP :-)

  7. #67

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    I really have no idea why people are comparing 3 minute buffs thats 99% of warriors aren't gonna remember to rebuff during boss fights to a 30 minute buff that you dont have to worry about.
    Beauty now spawns with only two pups in Heroic difficulty. Not to worry though, the missing pup has been adopted by a wonderful, if not insane family.

    I'm glad that Blizzard cares about the little things...

  8. #68

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    The good ones do remember. It's what sets them above the ones that DON'T remember... But I see your point. Pally's in general are quick to QQ...

  9. #69

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    It's simple, retardins run out of mana WAY too fast, even on live, where they chug mana pots on cd to stay operational. On beta, the whole fucked up idea of potion sickness blew that up, so you have someone that has good dps for about 1m and then is gone, where warriors rogues and shamans (melee competition) can all keep going. And TBH as a raid leader I don't want a DPS pally taking up 1 of the 10 mana regen slots of a manabattery, instead of giving that to healers or range dpsers.

    Not to mention that by the amount AOE every class got, the standard size of a pull on 25man instances is gonna be 15 mobs...

  10. #70

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    2 things...

    First - the mana regen is an issue, I agree with you there - I'm Horde though, so I have no issues in an entire raid, and only have to use one pot during a boss fight, and I do more DPS than Alliance with SoB. WotLK is changing things, my mana pool is shrinking, but I'm getting a "mana back" spell in Divine Plea (which should be reworked into an instant cast buff, IMO). SoB is no longer the DPS king, and we have to remember that this is still a beta, so they (hopefully) will be changing things...

    Second - We don't take up "1 of the 10 mana regen slots of a manabattery", instead - we give you another 10. Meaning, if the spriest or hunter has their buff up, our buff will go to 10 DIFFERENT players, providing 20... And if a third one procs, then everyone in the raid gets the regen, the idea is that almost everyone will have the buff due to different procs during the entire fight...

  11. #71

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    People all seem to have forgotten one point that I feel is rather important.

    Everyone speaks as if - xyz class is there, so my unique ability is now rubbish.

    What if that person or you were to die?

    Whoops, the raid would lose significant dps. Having many overlapping abilities means this is far less likely to happen and in general you should be far less likely to wipe, if excrement should hit the cooling device.

  12. #72

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    people seem to forget that ret paladins return more mana than shadow priests and survival hunters because of judgement of wisdom scaling well with attack power. paladins own mana problems aside, as it stands now ret seems like it will be the superior mana battery, on top of 3% crit, 2% damage, 3% haste and what will hopefully be respectable sustainable dps.

  13. #73

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    after reading about half of the angry walls of text in this forum all i can say is im glad i dont do anything past an occasional T5 instance. That people would be SO picky as to have the need to discern which is the end all be all BEST of each raiding role instead of taking someone who would work and has a good attitude, the concept seems anything but fun.

    Blizzard is trying to make it where you dont need Class X or your raid is gonna die in a firey wave of doom by spreading the abilities out, but everyone seems to be stuck in the old ways of thinking.

    I wonder if when WotLK comes out were gonna have as many ppl bitching about how much better BC was, like all the oldfags who have nothing to do but gripe about vanilla wow now.
    Rocket Sauce.

  14. #74

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    Umm really sorry to break it to you but i think we got a little nerf there. Hope i am wrong.

    Judgement of Wisdom (Rank 1): Mana return values added. Now: "Fills the Paladin with divine wisdom for [DURATION], giving each melee attack a chance to restore 4 of the Paladin's mana. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for [DURATION], granting attacks and spells used against the judged enemy a chance to restore 2% mana to the attacker. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. "

    http://wotlkwiki.info/index.php/Paladin#tab=Changes thats the site i found this.
    YOU FACE NOT MALCHEZAR ALONE, BUT THE LEGIONS I COMMAND!

  15. #75

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal
    Umm really sorry to break it to you but i think we got a little nerf there. Hope i am wrong.

    Judgement of Wisdom (Rank 1): Mana return values added. Now: "Fills the Paladin with divine wisdom for [DURATION], giving each melee attack a chance to restore 4 of the Paladin's mana. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for [DURATION], granting attacks and spells used against the judged enemy a chance to restore 2% mana to the attacker. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. "

    http://wotlkwiki.info/index.php/Paladin#tab=Changes thats the site i found this.
    I'm not so sure that this is a real change. They implemented the values of the mana return, like said on wotlkwiki, but they didn't change the part of the tooltip UNDERLINED in the quote?

    Fake?

    EDIT: Saw this on wowhead. Really a nerf?
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWHead
    This Seal has changed, according to the current beta build it gives 4% of the paladins maximum mana (it has a 4 sec internal cooldown)

    The judgment is giving 2% on each swing.

  16. #76

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    i had so many numbers rolling on my screen from miks i never really paid attention. i just logged on to beta now and the tooltip is displaying the wrong information. i did a test on the dummy in dalaran sewers. first i put on seal of righteousness and used judgement of wisdom on the dummy unbuffed. the tooltip said wisdom would restore 289 mana on attack but when i was attacking it was only restoring 139 mana. so i buffed myself with might and the tooltip said 370 mana restored on attack. but as i was meleeing the mob it was still only restoring 139 mana. 139 is 2% give or a take of 6949 or my maximum mana.

  17. #77

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    2% raid damage increase
    3% raid haste increase
    hand of freedom
    hand of protection
    hand of salvation
    hand of sacrifice
    additional rezzer
    divine shield
    judgements of the wise
    divine storm area heal
    divine intervention
    judgement of light
    judgement of wisdom
    judgement of justice
    solid spot heals
    CC that can be re-applied in combat
    demon/undead specific CC
    additional blessing - ret pallies bring improved might, holy bring improved wisdom, protection bring sanctuary - damage reduction is always a good thing

    Yeah, you're completely right, ret paladins are useless in raids now.

    Obviously some of these abilities are not useful all of the time, but all of them are useful some of the time, which is the definition of utility.

    Giving rogues this poison buff was throwing them a "raid utility" bone (of the 4 dps classes they are obviously severely lacking in this category), but they don't come anywhere near the raid utility that a ret paladin has, as they shouldn't.

    Honestly the 3% crit from judgments is the least exciting of our raid friendly talents and abilities.

    edit: added a bunch of utilities as i think of them

  18. #78
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpaq777
    2% raid damage increase
    3% raid haste increase
    hand of freedom
    hand of protection
    hand of salvation
    hand of sacrifice
    additional rezzer
    divine shield
    judgements of the wise
    divine storm area heal
    divine intervention
    judgement of light
    judgement of wisdom
    judgement of justice
    solid spot heals
    CC that can be re-applied in combat
    demon/undead specific CC
    additional blessing - ret pallies bring improved might, holy bring improved wisdom, protection bring sanctuary - damage reduction is always a good thing

    Yeah, you're completely right, ret paladins are useless in raids now.

    Obviously some of these abilities are not useful all of the time, but all of them are useful some of the time, which is the definition of utility.

    Giving rogues this poison buff was throwing them a "raid utility" bone (of the 4 dps classes they are obviously severely lacking in this category), but they don't come anywhere near the raid utility that a ret paladin has, as they shouldn't.

    Honestly the 3% crit from judgments is the least exciting of our raid friendly talents and abilities.

    edit: added a bunch of utilities as i think of them
    Listing Divine Storm as useful shows you know very little about Ret, The class is very much broken in beta but hopefully the changes coming will resolve the issues at hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  19. #79

    Re: Rogues replace Ret?

    Quote Originally Posted by Requital
    Listing Divine Storm as useful shows you know very little about Ret, The class is very much broken in beta but hopefully the changes coming will resolve the issues at hand.
    Ret paladins in their current beta implementation are horribly inept at everything with their insane mana problems which should be getting fixed after this paladin review.

    Try thinking a little next time before vomiting your stupidity all over this discussion.

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