Intended DPS for all classes?

[nazrakin]

Its not about dps its about raid viability. ect lots of QQ

I'm pretty sure I said I agree that SPriest deserve some compensation -- funny you decided to cut that part out of my response and focus on a comment that wasn't serious to begin with.

[WildW]

Again, the situation now is that hybrid dps are brought for the utility they give to a raid, where they make up for the lower dps. I'm gonna use casters as an example.

Warlocks and Mages are the primary caster dps. They do more damage than the others in 9/10 situations. in addition, they bring some light utliity in form of certain debuffs, crowd control, and for some fights they are used for certain roles like tanking.

Elemental shamans, balance druids and shadow priests are brought to raids for the support they give. Elemental shamans has the ToW, Druids the crit aura and shaow priests mana regen and debuff).

"WAIT! they bring bloodlust, innervate, other totems.....etc" Yes this is true, however theese buffs aren't spesific to the respecitve specs. You can count the to some degree now, but in wotlk they will be allmost ignored as those buffs can mostly be brought by the healing specs. With only the same buffs, the damage specs will simply be skipped, and raids will bring 1-2 of each healing class for those buffs.

So, so far so good. It's fairly common to have 2+ shadow priests, and elemental shamans/balance druids are possible to use, i beleive quite some guilds use 1+ elemenetal shaman(s). Of course, the raid picture is more complicated, there are so many classes supposed to fit in to the picture that it doesn't come down to simple comparisations.

So, whats going to change in wotlk? Well, as it looks now, you'l probably want to bring EITHER 1 elemental shamans or one balance druid and NONE shadow priests. Why? because the buffs can be gained elsewhere. Hunters can give mana, locks/mages(to some degree) can give spelldmg (like ToW). We will end up with a situation where raid leaders will look at the a raid setup and figure out how to get as many as possible of the the 30 different buffs/debuffs, and this can be done with very few hybrids, and in many cases there are options. What we'l basically end up with, is classes beeing compared directly to each other. Why bring an elemental shaman, if you can bring a mage/lock who can do tonns of more damage? Most of the buffs can be gained elsewhere, and the buffs of the elemental shaman which might help are weaker than ever, bloodlusts can be given by the restos, bonus damage by locks. The crit is one thing, but there will only ever be one elemental/balance in a raid.

The conclusion then has to be that when Blizzard has painted themselves into this corner where hybrids loose most of their unique utility, and are worse at dps, have no AoE and less CC, they will be brought much less to raids. Shadow priests will be gone, and there will only ever be 1 elemental or 1 boomkin. Thats a 200% reduction in numbers.If this is to be avoided there are to options:

1. Return to the model where buffs make up for lack of damage and other utility
2. Up the damage of the hybrids in other to at least give them a chance. Chances are locks/mages will still be brought for CC and better AoE.

[baseball]

The conclusion then has to be that when Blizzard has painted themselves into this corner where hybrids loose most of their unique utility, and are worse at dps, have no AoE and less CC, they will be brought much less to raids. Shadow priests will be gone, and there will only ever be 1 elemental or 1 boomkin. Thats a 200% reduction in numbers.If this is to be avoided there are to options:

1. Return to the model where buffs make up for lack of damage and other utility
2. Up the damage of the hybrids in other to at least give them a chance. Chances are locks/mages will still be brought for CC and better AoE.

Nice to see a little bit of logic in this train wreck.

I think all the intelligent people in this thread (yes, both of you) can agree that the first option is never going to happen, because it is a stupid option. That leaves us with the second -- I'm still looking forward to the day when people who actually think rogues deserve to do superior dps just because they don't have a resto tree leave to play Warhammer, because it's pretty clear that Blizzard is making their backward 2004 ideology completely obsolete.

[Nanhesan]

Pay attention. As I already pointed out, "pures" do not bring the same buffs.

Shut up scrub. Why don't you learn to read the fron page of MMO Champion before spouting your ignorant diatribe.

A Hunter raid buff in WotLK:
Trueshot Aura: now increases the attack power of all raid members by 10%, lasts until cancelled (superior to Unleashed Rage, replaces any need for Enhancement Shaman)

A Rogue raid buff in WotLK:
Tricks of the Trade: The current party or raid member becomes the target of your Tricks of the Trade. The threat caused by your next attack and all actions taken for 6 sec afterwards will be transferred to the target. In addition, all damage caused by the target is increased by 15% during this time. 30 sec cooldown. (Surprise! Yes, this is the new group/raid utility ability. We haven’t put any stacking protection on it.)

There are dozens more examples just like this. Blizzard has taken EVERY buff that EVERY Hybrid brought to raids, and given them all to various "pure" classes. There is now literally not a single reason to bring a Shaman (at all), and other than BoK / GotW / Fort there is no reason to bring more than 1 priest/druid/paladin.

That means unless Hybrids get 100% of the DPS abilities of every pure class, all raids will look like this:

Warriors and DKs to tank
Rogues/Mages/Hunters/Warlocks to DPS
Healers

WotLK is literally the death of non-healer Hybrids unless non-healer hybrids are given 100% of the DPS of any other class.

[WildW]

WotLK is literally the death of non-healer Hybrids unless non-healer hybrids are given 100% of the DPS of any other class.

QFT. I think this pritty much sums it all up, even though it's probably taking it a bit too far, as i supsect there will still be some hybrids used, possibly retpaaladin and 1 balance druid/elemental shaman. But even if thsoe are brought we're still in a stuation where hybrids are getting close to beeing gone.

[Blasfomy]

Shut up scrub. Why don't you learn to read the fron page of MMO Champion before spouting your ignorant diatribe.

If you had stopped here, you would of stopped yourself from looking like an idiot.

Every class is going to have its own reason to be brought to raids, while some may be more than others. Shamans provide totems and bloodlust. Its not much compared to some other classes, but its a reason.

However, that's entirely besides the point, buffs are being homogenized to stop only bringing what makes the raid absolutely IMBA. Blizzard is being smart and have it to where you can just get 9 (or 24) friends together, and as long as you have the basic layout of Tanks, Healers, and DPS/CC, you'll be okay!

If you want to bring to a 10-man:

A druid MT
A DK OT
A mage
A hunter
An elemental shaman
A holy priest
An enhancement shaman
A ret paladin
A holy paladin
A resto druid

Thats fine! You have the basic layout of 2 tanks, 2-3 healers, 2-3 CC, and the rest any DPSer, and thats all that matters! This is a GOOD change, it means you wont HAVE to have certain classes, just skilled player who you have fun raiding with!

Of course blizzard cant stop really hardcore guilds from stacking only whats optimum, but when people say "X class wont have a raid spot!" or "Y class isnt needed, because A class brings the same buff (or utility)!" its ludicrous. I would be okay with my class not being a MUST to bring to a raid, because if all 30 specs are a must, and theres only 25 raid spots, how is that going to work out?

People need to calm down, and think constructively, blizzard is no longer creating encounters where they expect every raid to have a warrior MT, or shadow priests for regen, or resist auras/totems. They're expecting you to have the basic layout.

EDIT: Just because i can see it coming, yes, i know bloodlust was nerfed with only being usable every 5 mins, but its still a very good buff that gives shaman a reason to be brought.

[kartu3]

Moonkin who can bring me an additional Innervate and Brez, and who I can easily drop 50g to respec into a Resto tree if its ever needed (and with gear homogenization I don't even have to regear him)? OR Warlock: Who offers a SS, which is inferior to Brez? OR Mage: Who has nothing?

Mage has superior CC, and best AOE DPS (or so says blizzard) AND int buff
Lock brings unique CC, unique debuffs on boss/mobs, (stamina buff?) and one of the best AOE DPS in game.

There is no way I would trade it for situational Brez and unknown to be usefull at all i WOTLK Innervate.

[Nanhesan]

Of course blizzard cant stop really hardcore guilds from stacking only whats optimum

Sure they can. They can balance the classes. It's real easy. If a Hunter brings better raid buffs than an Enhancement Shaman (and in WotLK they do), then an Enhancement Shaman has to be able to deal more DPS than a Hunter (they don't).

You see, right now on beta, pure dps classes bring more dps AND better raid buffs/utility than ANY raid buff/utility class.

We're not talking hardcore only -- there is literally no reason to bring a non-healer Hybrid to any raid. The only way to balance this situation is to equalize the DPS of all classes. Rogues = Enhancement Shaman = Hunters = Death Knights = Balance Druids = Shadow Priests = Destruction Warlocks etc.

EVERY CLASS IN WOTLK IS A BUFFING HYBRID NOW. SO LEAVING SHAMAN / PRIESTS / DRUIDS / PALADINS WITH LOWER DPS MAKES NO SENSE.

[kartu3]

EVERY CLASS IN WOTLK IS A BUFFING HYBRID NOW. SO LEAVING SHAMAN / PRIESTS / DRUIDS / PALADINS WITH LOWER DPS MAKES NO SENSE.

True. But I am not sure that blizzard understands it, after reading "SP hardly needs any changes" and "if frost build has more utility, it has to do less dps" type of blue comments.

P.S.
Oh, talking about batlle rez, soulstone anyone? ;D Shouldn't we move heavy utility warlock class into 3rd basket of 80% dps?

[oyoman]

The fact you possess a raid utility buff doesn't makes you a hybrid class (mages cannot tank or heal, you can't remove their DPS role, same for other pure DPS classes), and if the fact that now, some buffs are took by "pure" classes with the new system, you can only blame blizzard not players.

But i don't think it will change anything in raids anyways, if there are some guilds who purely optimize their groups for buffs or talents tree, and not balancing class numbers, you shouldn't join them... at least, i won't.

[cifer33]

yeah, but doesnt this destroy all the balance OUTSIDE of raids?

solo: ele shaman, moonkin etc, does mage/rogue dps and then heal himself full, elite mobs anyone?
PVP: hybrids, unbeatable in 1v1 (high dmg and heal good, thanks to spellpower), like rogue were ubeatable in BC, so a musthave in 2v2/3v3?
5 man instances: mage/rogue dps but heal if needed (and yes, in 5mans with like 3 halfretards its welcomed)?

85% dps with more buffs should be aimed by blizz....i know they changed it but >_>



sry for my english

[kartu3]

yeah, but doesnt this destroy all the balance OUTSIDE of raids?

solo: ele shaman, moonkin etc, does mage/rogue dps and then heal himself full, elite mobs anyone?

As it was already pointed out NUMREROUS times, 85% would mean = dont take more than one hybrid, take only "pure" classes (which, as it was already pointed out NUMEROUS times, aren't really "pure dps" and also have very nice support abilities, like soulstone for example)

And what "balance outside raids" are you talking about? How balanced are HEALERS outside raids? Can they kill mobs as easily? Can any other class, besides mages, warlocks, effectively aoe a group of mobs? Can any other class nonstop grind 2-3 mobs at a time, as warlocks do?

[cifer33]

As it was already pointed out NUMREROUS times, 85% would mean = dont take more than one hybrid, take only "pure" classes (which, as it was already pointed out NUMEROUS times, aren't really "pure dps" and also have very nice support abilities, like soulstone for example)

And what "balance outside raids" are you talking about? How balanced are HEALERS outside raids? Can they kill mobs as easily? Can any other class, besides mages, warlocks, effectively aoe a group of mobs? Can any other class nonstop grind 2-3 mobs at a time, as warlocks do?

omg, 85% and MORE buffs, not how it is, how it should be, i dont like that everyone has the same buffs.
i know that healers arent balanced at farming etc IN BC, but in wotlk they would be OP, because Top DPS + good healing (yeah 2k + heal, what every hybrid will have with the spellpower change, is better then none, like mage/rogue/warlock)

And its obvious that every hybrid here say its fine, its natural to want to be Overpowered, look at druids and rogues, they think they're fine :

[Deleted]

The problem is you can't balance things for single-play and have them work out in 25-man cooperative play.
It's the same reason Blizzard stated that 2vs2 arenas are unbalanced but that they don't wish to address this : it's more important to have things work out well for big groups because that's what most of the players do.

If the choice is between balanced single play + unbalanced single play and the opposite, what does Blizzard choose ?

[cifer33]

It was good that 30% of heal becomes + dmg, but 100 % dmg + heal is too much, regardless of the specc

and if blizz were smart, they wouldnt do this, most of the players are dmg dealer, rogues mage and warlocks, so they either reroll, dont care about being a half class( yeah we are now what you were before, a dmg dealer without heal) or leave the game.

[Flipguarder]

so are you angry because the classes can both heal and do dps, or are you angry that it now isnt mindnumbingly painful to level a healer?

for 1. You knew that there were hybrids. you CHOSE to be pure dps
for 2. how does that HARM YOU AT ALL!?

What i think is being missed, is that different equipment will still be used for different specs. and talents play a HUGE part. a priest without shadowform BLOWS at dmg. Currently the only two classes that are capable of speccing in ONE tree and fufilling 2 roles, deathknights and feral druids. enhancement shamans can't.

Or just reroll. All I do as a shadowpriest is dmg, and utility. If you think my dps should be lower because of the utility (VE, VT, misery) then I agree. But if those were removed, I would expect to do the same dps, or have the same dps capabilities of a mage, a lock, a rogue. If all I do is damage, because a shadowform priest CANT heal, then I expect to be able to do it effectively.

[spine]

You want to deal real dps? reroll

i believe your are mistaken in your findings mate (assuming you are sure about this statement) i play an enhancement shaman, at t6 level and always in the top 3 on dps.

[kartu3]

omg, 85% and MORE buffs, not how it is, how it should be, i dont like that everyone has the same buffs.
i know that healers arent balanced at farming etc IN BC, but in wotlk they would be OP, because Top DPS + good healing (yeah 2k + heal, what every hybrid will have with the spellpower change, is better then none, like mage/rogue/warlock)

And its obvious that every hybrid here say its fine, its natural to want to be Overpowered, look at druids and rogues, they think they're fine :

1) I don't care about grinding
2) As I've already said, healers/tanks have much harder time grinding, but NOBODY CARES
3) There already are classes which can grind much better than other DPS classes, NOBODY CARES
4) Nerfing somebodies raid DPS, so that he doesn't GRIND more effectively is the winner in "lamest argument vs all dps should be equal" contest.

[spine]

another thing, i dont see why people are consantly going on about classes being "OP" and what-not its just pointless, if you cant beat a class in pvp, deal with it, if you are a gd enough player you will figure out a way around it, i play a shaman as you know (see post above) and we pretty much get instagibbed on our own, especially by warriors, which is the most ammusing comment by shaman guilies saying, "omg warrs OP, too much armor and hp" and all that shit, but there are so many ways you can get around stuff like that, ever if your a melee, enh shamans get a move that reduces damage taken by 30% for 15 secs, and thats enough time to nuke a warrs down as your taking about as much damage as they are.

[spine]

1) I don't care about grinding
2) As I've already said, healers/tanks have much harder time grinding, but NOBODY CARES
3) There already are classes which can grind much better than other DPS classes, NOBODY CARES
4) Nerfing somebodies raid DPS, so that he doesn't GRIND more effectively is the winner in "lamest argument vs all dps should be equal" contest.

i completely agree, also tanks shouldnt complain about grinding and niether should healers with instant HoT's. we can we A mob faster than they can, but they can pull several at once without dieing. especially on things like paladin tanks/healers.