25-man's loot better than 10-man's?

[Oksemannen]

I miss the good old 40-man instances.

[Tonkadin]

Then they get loot in quality one tier below the 25-man version. I don't get why everyone's still whining about this.

If you want the best of the best gear, you work for it. Period. Blizzard is spoonfeeding the casuals with these changes already, you're getting to see end-game content with just 10 people. So what if you're walking in tier 7 when all your friends have tier 8? Raiding isn't all about loot. The loot is just there to help you progress.

You arent working any harder than people running 10 mans will be. They make the bosses hit harder and do more stuff in 25 mans. So MORE people are added to make up for this.

[BEEPBEEPIMINAJEEP]

It doesnt take more effort. It takes more effort for the couple / few people organizing the raid. You, if you are not a raid leader, still show up the same as ou would in 10 mans. So learn wtf you are talking about.

25 mans have better loot because they are HARDER. Mobs hit harder. Healers have to heal more. More mobs need to be tanked / cced. Blizzard stated this a loooooooooooooooong time ago when they added in the one boss in UBRS that you had to 10 man (some bonus boss for the dungeon .5 sets). They said you can only make 5 mans so hard. They can only make 10 man content so hard and so on. So 25 mans can be scaled up difficulty wise way more than 5 and 10 mans can.

lmao, you're arguing with the wrong person, genius. One, I *am* a raid leader, and two, I'm arguing that 25-mans ARE harder and the raiders who participate in them should be rewarded as such. How can something be harder without requiring more effort? It's harder BECAUSE it requires more effort. Why're you getting wrapped up in the semantics?

[Lór]

People that are saying 25 man instances are harder because you have to get more people are wrong. The biggest difference between 10 man instances and 25 man instances is the complexivity of encounters. A 10 man encounter can never be as complex as a 25 man encounter.

More players, more things to do, more possible mistakes, much higher organization and much more complexity are reason enough for the difference in loot.

[BEEPBEEPIMINAJEEP]

You arent working any harder than people running 10 mans will be. They make the bosses hit harder and do more stuff in 25 mans. So MORE people are added to make up for this.

You're working harder because it's harder to coordinate - not just outside of the raid, but DURING the raid - 25 people. 25 man encounters are significantly more complex.

[ArtOfShred]

As is currently balanced it makes sense for 10-man's to drop less loot than 25-man's. Obviously getting more people requires more time, more gearing up, and far more coordination.

There is no logical complaint pertaining to loot that you can make against this. 10-man's at the moment, as they are designed require less "effort."

If you have issues with that design your best argument would be to push for HARDER 10 mans. I for one would love if it would take a core of 10 of the best in my guild extreme coordination and effort to make it through a 10-man instance for the same loot, and I wish that was the path Blizzard had taken with WOTLK 10-mans, but it is not.

[Karpalo]

How you make 1 man encounter that`s hard to cordinate? ok lets add the stakes, how you make encounter for 3 man... bit more options here as you can imagine.

As for 40 man raiding i have done around half of the naxx encounters in vanilla and i still think razorgore in bwl was most satisfying to down along with huhuran. The fact that razorgore feels like WTF is going on when you do it first time, and huhuran where you need to fill warrior rage bars and pump rogue CP`s and energy to full before taking down that last % of boss health before it goes enrage. And even with preparations you have only few guys standing first time it goes down. The more players you have the bigger are the odds someone loses he`s focus and fucks up and in sensitive encounters thats a wipe. Problem was to get 40 players online sametimes that`s why i wouldnt rather go back for that but there is no question that in 25 man encounters you got a lot more harder encounters due the fact you can asume you got every debuff in the raid, and due the fact that you can asume you got 6 healers so you can keep going after the encounter have continued for over 10 minutes.

10 mans just don`t take same effort to do as 25mans, and let`s be honest this is mmorp-game we all play for gear in some level. It`s nice feel to upgrade your gear and character. Would anyone played diablo 2 otherwise?

[Tonkadin]

lmao, you're arguing with the wrong person, genius. One, I *am* a raid leader, and two, I'm arguing that 25-mans ARE harder and the raiders who participate in them should be rewarded as such. How can something be harder without requiring more effort? It's harder BECAUSE it requires more effort. Why're you getting wrapped up in the semantics?

I am a raid leader as well. I have led raids from 40 mans to 25 mans to 20 mans to the 10 mans. Its not harder, it just requires more people. There is no difference. 10 mans are scaled to the highest difficulty for the amount of people allowed in. Just like 25 mans kiddo. It doesnt require more effort from one certain individual. So lets say you are a mage? I guess you try harder in 25 mans that you would in a 10 man that is really difficult. 25 mans are rewards because its a 25 man. Not because its harder.

And you can also argue that there is more room for error in 25 mans versus 10 mans. You lose 1-2 people in a 10 man (thats hard) and its pretty much game over. In 40 mans you could lose 7-8 , sometimes even more and pull stuff off. In 25 mans you can lose 3-4 people and be alright if you have a skilled guild.

[Devia]

You fail to realize that if there was not a greater reward for doing an instance with 25 people there would be no motive to do so.

[Tonkadin]

You fail to realize that if there was not a greater reward for doing an instance with 25 people there would be no motive to do so.

I dont fail to realize that. I am for the loot division. I think blizz is doing it fine. People here are just making false reasons for the loot being different. It comes to do 25 mans are rewarded because of the effort to get 25 people + 10 or so subs and what not.

[Tigercat]

Anyone that doesn't understand that 25mans are always going to be inherently harder when properly tuned needs to go back and check their own itemization, gems, enchants, talents, etc.

Chances are you're doing something wrong, because you're an idiot.

[Karpalo]

Why is it so hard to get it????? THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY TO MAKE 10 MAN INSTANCE AS HARD AS YOU CAN MAKE 25MAN INSTANCE!!!1111eleven!1

clear?

P.S should i spell it so it`s even more clearer?

[Tonkadin]

If instances get tuned speciffically for 10 and 25 men separately, what keeps blizzard from making 10 mans just as hard and work intensive than 25 mans? The effort in actual playing can just be the same, and for what lame reason should one be punished for if he wants to switch from 10 to 25, but finding himself half as good equipped but with the same amount of "work" done before? It all comes down to how much easier the 10-man versions will be, and I really hope that they will be just as hard as a 25 man.
What fucking influence on personal effort does it make, if you do it with 10 or 25 people, except that you have a little more organizing overhead, which has NOTHING to do with actually playing the damn game.

Exactly medium. Everyone does EXACTLY the same amount of effort lol. The only people TRUELY doing more effort are the guild / raid leaders recruiting / organizing the raids.

[Tonkadin]

Anyone that doesn't understand that 25mans are always going to be inherently harder when properly tuned needs to go back and check their own itemization, gems, enchants, talents, etc.

Chances are you're doing something wrong, because you're an idiot.

so El tigre , people are idiots because YOU think that YOU do more work in a 25 man than a 10 man tuned to the same difficulty for the group size? You are the idiot. You as a player do no more work than you would in a 10 man.

[blitzme99]

Why is it so hard to get it????? THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY TO MAKE 10 MAN INSTANCE AS HARD AS YOU CAN MAKE 25MAN INSTANCE!!!1111eleven!1

clear?

P.S should i spell it so it`s even more clearer?

Can you please give one logical reason for that argument besides just saying its so?

[Devia]

Hi Elektrik.

You do know that 10 and 25 man raids talked about in this thread is for the same instance, right? I WotLK there will be (this is an example) a 10 and 25 man version of a raid instance..

Your example with KZ and SSC doesnt really work. I am not going to go ahead and call you an idiot, but be nice. And get a hold of what you are talking about

You sir, are the idiot, because if you would have taken time to read his post, he stated:

If you stopped to think, you'd realize that this sort of thing is already in the game - they just aren't the SAME dungeon with the SAME bosses. But this doesn't make it any different loot-wise.

Therefore he did acknowledge that the 10/25 man dungeons will be the same instances. Don't be so cocky, my friend.

[BEEPBEEPIMINAJEEP]

I am a raid leader as well. I have led raids from 40 mans to 25 mans to 20 mans to the 10 mans. Its not harder, it just requires more people. There is no difference. 10 mans are scaled to the highest difficulty for the amount of people allowed in. Just like 25 mans kiddo. It doesnt require more effort from one certain individual. So lets say you are a mage? I guess you try harder in 25 mans that you would in a 10 man that is really difficult. 25 mans are rewards because its a 25 man. Not because its harder.

And you can also argue that there is more room for error in 25 mans versus 10 mans. You lose 1-2 people in a 10 man (thats hard) and its pretty much game over. In 40 mans you could lose 7-8 , sometimes even more and pull stuff off. In 25 mans you can lose 3-4 people and be alright if you have a skilled guild.

In most 40 mans you could have 15 people who were pretty much afk at their keyboards and still win - despite the fact that they were all dead weight. You can NOT argue there is more room for error in 25 mans, especially in the harder fights, because they are necessarily so much more complex and require so much more of EVERYONE. And leading a Gruul's lair run or a Mag run where the fights are basically entry level tank and spanks doesn't qualify you to compare the difficulty of, say, Leotheras, to some ZA boss.

How is it POSSIBLE to be SO naive to think that 10 mans can be as difficult or cutthroat as 25 mans? There isn't a single 10-man boss that isn't a JOKE.

[jimmycranky]

There is no way to justify making 10 man loot the same as 25 man loot. The encounters will be radically different. For example Kael in the lol dungeon MgT and the original Kael. 25 man version 12 minute encounter and required co-ordiantion from 25 people. MgT version 2 minute fight tops and any retard could kill him straight away. Will be exactly the same for 10 mans. you won;t have enough people to compete with the "full" version of the said boss in these dungeons.

[Devia]

AV has 40 people and has poor rewards, Arena has 5 people and has good rewards. Its not about the number of people its about the coordination and effort required.

Yes, because win-trading clearly takes a lot of skill and effort.

[Tigercat]

so El tigre , people are idiots because YOU think that YOU do more work in a 25 man than a 10 man tuned to the same difficulty for the group size? You are the idiot. You as a player do no more work than you would in a 10 man.

Yes, I do. So does the rest of the raid. Keeping track of 24 other people, believe it or not, is harder than keeping track of 9 others. If you, as a player, ignore the other raiders then that's more of a personal lack of skill problem, also known as not my problem.

There is simply no way to say that when equally tuned a 10man is going to be as hard as a 25man.