Blue Confirmation, Paladin's to be Discussed; Mana, DPS and Interrupt issues.

[Moar Pew Pew]

I vaguely seem to remember him posting rather rediculous things about Paladins being the most OP class in WoW. Or at least a similar name. :-X

[Fushu]

Laughing is good for you, or so the doctors claim. But would you care to elaborate?

RE: Interrupt thread and how yourself and Krekko was acting about the notion of Paladins receiving additional pep tools.

it all comes down to him being an ass and think everything is overpowered except his class..

i guess, it's how he was acting towards me as well, when i was discussing affliction locks

Wow calm down. All I said was if you wanna do competitive dps in a raiding guild, you're gonna have to spec demo because aff sucks.

I vaguely seem to remember him posting rather rediculous things about Paladins being the most OP class in WoW. Or at least a similar name. :-X

This I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Moar Pew Pew]

This I have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe a different name. It was a long time ago lol. Sorry.

[Moar Pew Pew]

Now if only i could post the s**ts. Ret thread's up, 9 pages long last i checked

Sidelining sucks.

Link?

[meliancill]

the link is broken

a working link can be found

here

[Rawberry]

Since some people seem to be failing horribly at linking I'll help you out Moar:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...62931&sid=2000

[Moar Pew Pew]

Since some people seem to be failing horribly at linking I'll help you out Moar:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...62931&sid=2000

Much appreciated.

[meliancill]

im confused lol were you talking to me lol?

[Hyanda]

I can see alot of ret paladins on the BETA forums asking for Mana efficiency and more controllable damage or changes to current talents that are pretty decent as is.

Has anyone thought about maybe the other aspects(PvP Arena specifically) which aren't addressed so much? One change I would love to see is a change to Hand Of Freedom..Maybe another rank or possibly some tiny buff? I would personally like to see it changed to a physical buff rather than a magic buff.

A serious question how many people actually succeed in cleansing a set of warlock dots? Without seeing at least 1 resist or stopping to cleanse someone who is CC'd? I think cleanse needs some loving.

[meliancill]

i have to agree. i havnt seen any posts like that on the forums. maybe a beta tester that is reading this could get on the us forums or eu forums and put some of those up.

[Rawberry]

I think cleanse needs some loving.

Agreed. But I believe a Blue has already stated that Cleanse would be getting some attention, can't seem to find the thread though at the moment ;(.

[Kavalir]

Hey Rawberry, was it just me or did they change the wording on the Shield Specialization. Shield Specialization now Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 10/20/30%. (Old - Increases your block value by 10/20/30%

So does that mean it will no longer affect Shield of Righteousness?

Sorry for the ninja of the Ret Strike thread

[Rawberry]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/.../talents2.html

For me, that talentcalculator still shows Shield Specialization as:

Increases your block value by 10%.

Maybe your browser cache needs refreshing?

[Hyanda]

The thread is upto 10 pages currently and still no one has posted about anything else other than the usual babble of buff Vengeance back and change JotW which blizzard already know we are grumpy about...

I wish I had a beta key -.-"

I think one person mentioned something about Cleanse and another about Hand of Freedom but not much else.

[meliancill]

yah im disapointed about that. i would think more beta testers would be concerned about other things than the 5% from vengance. but hey they randomly picked players who opted in so i gues they didnt get all good testers this time.

[Nazumi]

I would like to the see Venegance changed into raid buff like Unleashed Rage, that would be really awesome because we cant swap auras so easy because the Retribution Aura is our guarantee to be in a raid. And 10% damage increase ok it's a bit too much but i like the idea. For Arena Aura swapping is sometimes usefull but we lose our haste and +damage when we do so. I also think the Magic Resistance Auras should merged into one Aura.

[Moar Pew Pew]

I wish people would at least just quote for truth. Le sigh.

[briany]

for ret's problem.

simple fix:
Give spell interrupt to CS.
Give 60% dmg to mana back to us.

[Slimjimjr]

*Submit for feedback*

Hello, this is my feeble attempt to improve the protection tree. Some talents address bloat, some address need for utilities such as threat and mitigation and some are to hopefully inspire other more creative ideas. I tried to remove some bloat but still leave some hard chooses to be made. I made a few changes to give both on demand damage as well as proc damage and same for mitigation. Hopefully, someone can take a few of the ideas and run with them. I may not have addressed all the issues but I did try to get the ones that I thought were important.

*Tier 1*
Anticipation
- Move to tier 2

> Most prot paladins will be getting both Divine Strength and Anticipation but Holy has nothing to go for Tier 1
> Ret will be getting Divine Strength so most will have no trouble advancing through the tree if they need to.

Guardian's Favor
- Move to Tier 1

Guardian's Touch [New Talent]
- 3 point talent.
- Reduces the cool down of Hand of Salvation by 15/30/45s
- Reduce the cool down of Righteous Defense by 1/3/5s.

> Combined with Guardian's Favor, this will give holy paladins something to get that isn't a total waist of talents.
> Prot would get a much needed cool down on there taunt. (15 sec fills like an eternity sometimes).
< No real PvP application but I’m sure something could be added if need be.


*Tier 2*
Redoubt
- Change to a 2 pts
- Have increase block rating by 5/10%(base).
- Proc a buff that increases your next holy shield’s number of charges by 1/2 and block rating by an additional 5/10%.
- Same proc has its own buff that increases block rating by 5/10% for 1/3 charges(no time limit).

> Now you have a single target benefit from redoubt.
> There is synergy with holy w/o overlapping charges.
> You also have a proc that can help when Holy Shield is down.
> The reduced points would help with bloat if you want Redoubt and Shield Spec. still be linked.


*Tier 3*
Blessing of Kings
- Make it a trainable spell.
> We know it, you know it, everybody knows it; it should be baseline.

Improved Righteous Fury
- Add some dispel resist for Righteous Fury (maybe 10/20/30%) that stack with the resist in Stoicism.
- Add a reduction of disarm and shield break duration by 15/30/45%.

>This will add a bit of flavor to a currently boring but mandatory talent.


*Tier 4*
Currently, I have no real problem with the talents here other than they seem to be better suited for other specs.

Divine Guardian
> Seems best suited for off tanking and holy paladins and if that’s the intent, fine with me.
Improved Hammer of Justice
> PvP oriented with little pve uses partially with the lack of points to spend in it. It could be put in a better location.
Improved Devotion Aura
> I like this one but seem to run out of points before getting it. Skippable if you have a holy paladin willing to get it.


*Tier 5*
Spell Warding(2 options)
- Increase spell damage reduction to 5/10%(or whatever would be balanced)
or - Add to the talent(keeping the 2/4% base) so that it either scales with armor or block value; maybe something like:
+ 10% armor = 1% spell damage reduction
or + 300 block value = 1% spell damage reduction

> Right now this talent is a sad excuse for spell mitigation. All tanks should be able to handle spell damage just some better than others
>Option two would allow us spell mitigation to scale with gear just like physical damage mitigation scales with gear. Of course, numbers can be adjusted for balance.

Reckoning
- Change to a 1 point talent
- Clickable spell with 20-30 sec cool down
- Remove the duration timer but keep the charges

>This would remove a lot of bloat in the prot tree
>Allow for more controllable burst threat(SoV/SoCorr could be stack in a hurry and on demand or SoR could regain lost aggro)
>Aid in raid dpsing or leveling situations


*Tier 6*
Sacred Duty
> Currently, I have no real problem with this spell but it does seem to be part of a redundancy in buffing our bubbles and stamina. You could just as easily fold the bubble buff into Divine Guardian and the stamina buff into Combat Expertise. One-handed Weapon Spec. is enough to get to the next tier. If it feel too barren then you could move something like Judgments of the Just to its spot(any other spec trying to go this deep into prot would just simply screw up there spec and any attempt to be anything other than prot). But, that is just a suggestion if you are looking for things to consolidate.


*Tier 7*
Improved Holy Shield
- Fold the effects into the original spell
- Make the improvement be a 50/100% chance to absorb a direct damaging spell(maybe based on block value)
- Have holy shield deal its damage to that caster
> Again, tanking caster should be doable by all tank, just some better than others.
< This may be a somewhat overpowered compared to there tanks but numbers can be adjusted (maybe just 25/50% chance) to make it fair but at this point almost any spell mitigation is better than what we have now.

Ardent Defender
- Change to a 3 point talent
- Make it scale such that as the paladin's health falls, he/she takes less damage
+ 50% health all damage intake is reduced by 3/6/10%
+ 40% " " " " " 6/13/20%
+ 30% " " " " " 10/20/30%
- Maybe add an animation where the paladin glows lets say yellow, orange, and red respectively so it feels a bit more fun

> This would help address some of the leapfrogging of a signature talent
> Help to have it used more often instead of being on an infinite cool down
< Could be considered too strong (not sure how) but again, numbers can be adjusted



*Tier 9*
Avenger's Shield
- Change the daze into a silence(2-3 sec maybe)

> A daze is counter productive when pulling; a good tank can plan out positioning before hand and the distance the mobs have to cover is more than enough time.
> A silence would be much more useful when pulling casters and just as useful in pvp environment as a slow effect.
> The cast time reduction is a much welcome change though. Thanks!!!

Guarded by the Light(many potential options)
- fold the effects of this into Shield of the Templar(3 mana reduction talents is a bit much)
- (if it must be a mana related talent)Increase the mana received from Spiritual Attunment 5/10%
or - (an inverted mitigation talent) each spell cast again you has a 10% chance to proc "Guarded by the Light" which has 3 charges and increase the amount of healing you receive buy 5/10%.
or - (more direct mitigation)Your holy damage spell have a 1/2% chance to surround you in Guardian's Light absorbing 20% of your targets next damaging attack and redirecting it to your target in your next attack

> there are several way to make this talent good but redundant mana reduction isn't the best option
> this first idea isn't really needed but it was just something that came to mind with the talent just had to deal with mana
> the next one would be good pvp(flag carrying/node defending) and pve(dealing with heavy spell damage) but could be overpowered if the other spell mitigation suggests where implemented
> third one is a bit of mitigation and threat rolled into one as well as a bit of off tanking help
> just wanted to put some ideas out there in the hopes something better and more deserving is
given to a talent with the name "Guarded by the Light"


*Tier 11*
Hammer of the Righteous
> I like this one as it is more options for a holding aggro on multiple targets and making tanking a bit more fun. Just seems bland to only do damage and threat. Seems to me it should have a another affect like
- Have the daze in this talent instead of AS
or - increase holy damage taken
or - reduce targets spell damage by X% or cast time by Y%
> most anything productive would be fine, but I do believe it to be good as is.




*Note, some of the ideas may be awkward but hey, brainstorming is fun :-). Also some ideas my not be my own but since I agree with them, I included them. As for unmentioned talents, I have no real arguments about them at present time, so I leave it to others to make suggestions on those.

[DaveTheHunter]

*Submit for feedback*

Hello, this is my feeble attempt to improve the protection tree. Some talents address bloat, some address need for utilities such as threat and mitigation and some are to hopefully inspire other more creative ideas. I tried to remove some bloat but still leave some hard chooses to be made. I made a few changes to give both on demand damage as well as proc damage and same for mitigation. Hopefully, someone can take a few of the ideas and run with them. I may not have addressed all the issues but I did try to get the ones that I thought were important.

*Tier 1*
Anticipation
- Move to tier 2

> Most prot paladins will be getting both Divine Strength and Anticipation but Holy has nothing to go for Tier 1
> Ret will be getting Divine Strength so most will have no trouble advancing through the tree if they need to.

I don't necessarily see a problem with moving this to tier 2, but don't see an advantage to it either. I personally think, however, that unless they remove some of the "bloat" from the prot tree that the 5% parry in the ret tree should be tier 1.

Guardian's Favor
- Move to Tier 1

Guardian's Touch [New Talent]
- 3 point talent.
- Reduces the cool down of Hand of Salvation by 15/30/45s
- Reduce the cool down of Righteous Defense by 1/3/5s.

> Combined with Guardian's Favor, this will give holy paladins something to get that isn't a total waist of talents.
> Prot would get a much needed cool down on there taunt. (15 sec fills like an eternity sometimes).
< No real PvP application but I’m sure something could be added if need be.

I like your idea of a reduced cd on Righteous Defense. The cd on it is pretty ridiculous. I don't like, however, a reduced cd on Hand of Salvation. As a prot pally that would pretty much make us responsible for watching dps threat for them. Screw that.

*Tier 2*
Redoubt
- Change to a 2 pts
- Have increase block rating by 5/10%(base).
- Proc a buff that increases your next holy shield’s number of charges by 1/2 and block rating by an additional 5/10%.
- Same proc has its own buff that increases block rating by 5/10% for 1/3 charges(no time limit).

> Now you have a single target benefit from redoubt.
> There is synergy with holy w/o overlapping charges.
> You also have a proc that can help when Holy Shield is down.
> The reduced points would help with bloat if you want Redoubt and Shield Spec. still be linked.

Sounds like a good idea. Either do something like this or unlink Redoubt and Shield Spec.

*Tier 3*
Blessing of Kings
- Make it a trainable spell.
> We know it, you know it, everybody knows it; it should be baseline.

fantastic idea

Improved Righteous Fury
- Add some dispel resist for Righteous Fury (maybe 10/20/30%) that stack with the resist in Stoicism.
- Add a reduction of disarm and shield break duration by 15/30/45%.

>This will add a bit of flavor to a currently boring but mandatory talent.

good additions for making prot talents viable for pvp, but useless pve. The "old" 90% threat increase warranted the name Righteous Fury. It made sense. It may be semantics, but change the name or make the talent worthy of the name.

*Tier 4*
Currently, I have no real problem with the talents here other than they seem to be better suited for other specs.

Divine Guardian
> Seems best suited for off tanking and holy paladins and if that’s the intent, fine with me.
Improved Hammer of Justice
> PvP oriented with little pve uses partially with the lack of points to spend in it. It could be put in a better location.
Improved Devotion Aura
> I like this one but seem to run out of points before getting it. Skippable if you have a holy paladin willing to get it.

I like the idea of prot pallies actually using Imp. Devo. Aura. Remove some bloat from the tree so we can take this w/o sacrificing threat mechanics or other mitigation.

*Tier 5*
Spell Warding(2 options)
- Increase spell damage reduction to 5/10%(or whatever would be balanced)
or - Add to the talent(keeping the 2/4% base) so that it either scales with armor or block value; maybe something like:
+ 10% armor = 1% spell damage reduction
or + 300 block value = 1% spell damage reduction

> Right now this talent is a sad excuse for spell mitigation. All tanks should be able to handle spell damage just some better than others
>Option two would allow us spell mitigation to scale with gear just like physical damage mitigation scales with gear. Of course, numbers can be adjusted for balance.

Don't forget we have a baseline mitigation in Righteous Fury that INCLUDES spell dmg. This is just a way to get an extra 4% on the one kind of dmg that rocks our world. As far as it scaling with gear, that may be a bad idea unless it's tuned really well. I can just see end game pally tanks with gear so good that spell dmg is a joke.

Reckoning
- Change to a 1 point talent
- Clickable spell with 20-30 sec cool down
- Remove the duration timer but keep the charges

>This would remove a lot of bloat in the prot tree
>Allow for more controllable burst threat(SoV/SoCorr could be stack in a hurry and on demand or SoR could regain lost aggro)
>Aid in raid dpsing or leveling situations

I don't really see Reckoning as prot tree bloat. I see it more as a useless talent. Unless you're expertise capped (which is doubtful in anything but a sunwell geared prot pally using "warrior" pieces) you're just going to get instagibbed from the parries. Changing this to an on demand clickable skill that you could use for raid dps when not tanking, or as a lvling tool would be nice, but still not worth the talent point end game.

*Tier 6*
Sacred Duty
> Currently, I have no real problem with this spell but it does seem to be part of a redundancy in buffing our bubbles and stamina. You could just as easily fold the bubble buff into Divine Guardian and the stamina buff into Combat Expertise. One-handed Weapon Spec. is enough to get to the next tier. If it feel too barren then you could move something like Judgments of the Just to its spot(any other spec trying to go this deep into prot would just simply screw up there spec and any attempt to be anything other than prot). But, that is just a suggestion if you are looking for things to consolidate.

I agree that the stam is very welcome, but the other "benefit" is never used. I like the idea of just putting all the stam buffs into Combat Expertise and moving something like Judgements of the Just in the place of Sacred Duty.

*Tier 7*
Improved Holy Shield
- Fold the effects into the original spell
- Make the improvement be a 50/100% chance to absorb a direct damaging spell(maybe based on block value)
- Have holy shield deal its damage to that caster
> Again, tanking caster should be doable by all tank, just some better than others.
< This may be a somewhat overpowered compared to there tanks but numbers can be adjusted (maybe just 25/50% chance) to make it fair but at this point almost any spell mitigation is better than what we have now.

I think holy shield is just fine the way it is.

Ardent Defender
- Change to a 3 point talent
- Make it scale such that as the paladin's health falls, he/she takes less damage
+ 50% health all damage intake is reduced by 3/6/10%
+ 40% " " " " " 6/13/20%
+ 30% " " " " " 10/20/30%
- Maybe add an animation where the paladin glows lets say yellow, orange, and red respectively so it feels a bit more fun

> This would help address some of the leapfrogging of a signature talent
> Help to have it used more often instead of being on an infinite cool down
< Could be considered too strong (not sure how) but again, numbers can be adjusted

As incredible as a scaling dmg reduction would be based on current health, i think it would be too op. As it is this talent has saved my hide and the raids on numerous occasions.

*Tier 9*
Avenger's Shield
- Change the daze into a silence(2-3 sec maybe)

> A daze is counter productive when pulling; a good tank can plan out positioning before hand and the distance the mobs have to cover is more than enough time.
> A silence would be much more useful when pulling casters and just as useful in pvp environment as a slow effect.
> The cast time reduction is a much welcome change though. Thanks!!!

A silence would be absolutely amazing, but might be a bit op when no other tank can do it.

Guarded by the Light(many potential options)
- fold the effects of this into Shield of the Templar(3 mana reduction talents is a bit much)
- (if it must be a mana related talent)Increase the mana received from Spiritual Attunment 5/10%
or - (an inverted mitigation talent) each spell cast again you has a 10% chance to proc "Guarded by the Light" which has 3 charges and increase the amount of healing you receive buy 5/10%.
or - (more direct mitigation)Your holy damage spell have a 1/2% chance to surround you in Guardian's Light absorbing 20% of your targets next damaging attack and redirecting it to your target in your next attack

> there are several way to make this talent good but redundant mana reduction isn't the best option
> this first idea isn't really needed but it was just something that came to mind with the talent just had to deal with mana
> the next one would be good pvp(flag carrying/node defending) and pve(dealing with heavy spell damage) but could be overpowered if the other spell mitigation suggests where implemented
> third one is a bit of mitigation and threat rolled into one as well as a bit of off tanking help
> just wanted to put some ideas out there in the hopes something better and more deserving is
given to a talent with the name "Guarded by the Light"

Just remove this talent all together and fold the mana reduction into base line. We shouldn't be having to spec deep prot just to get mana reductions on our skills.

*Tier 11*
Hammer of the Righteous
> I like this one as it is more options for a holding aggro on multiple targets and making tanking a bit more fun. Just seems bland to only do damage and threat. Seems to me it should have a another affect like
- Have the daze in this talent instead of AS
or - increase holy damage taken
or - reduce targets spell damage by X% or cast time by Y%
> most anything productive would be fine, but I do believe it to be good as is.

I like this talent as is, as long as it's tuned appropriately to generate sufficient threat when thrown into the rotation.




I think there's some good changes suggested here as well as some unneccesary and op ones. I'll be happy as long as i stop hearing "You can't be MT, you're a pally!"