1. #1

    So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    I was just reading the first few feedback notes regarding holy paladins

    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...35242&sid=2000

    Yes... Most of the VERY few ppl commeting are not holies and ofc they really dont care about holy.

    There are alot of passioned holy paladins out there that care about our class. Random invites into Beta and then asking few selective ppl how each spec should be is NOT how to make a good and balanced class.

  2. #2

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    I don't have a single retri specced character, I do have a protadin and holydin though. I like holy a lot except for a few issues: no hots, not any kind of CC/silence/interrupt or similar PvP skill and they generally suck in 2v2. Raid-wise holydins do OK, but since they lack any aoe heals or multi-target heals other classes often get preference over holydins.

    Anyhow, this is not the best place to start rambling about holy viability. Alas, I don't have the beta key so I can't give any feedback whatsoever about the current talents and skills in beta nor write in the forums. I would so much love to be able to try them out and give my view on the situation since I am a passionate holydin
    - Hand: n., A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody's pocket. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

  3. #3

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    Unfortunately, blizzard in their infinite random-number-generator-for-beta-key-invites wisdom, decided only to invite retadins into beta. It would probably be better if the retardins simply ignored the question so blizzard realized they screwed up invitations, instead of pretending their 50 seconds of holy per week, which they spec so their guild will let them raid and pick up ret gear, qualifies them to properly evaluate the spec.

    Some of them should look for good Holy posts here or on the main paladin forums to copy and paste if they really wanted to help, but I wouldn't expect that much forethought from most of them. If you have a friend in the beta, I'd suggest using their help to post.

  4. #4

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    I suspect that's why they're letting the brutal ret mana nerf exist for the time being. Lots of people respeced to try out UBER RET, but it's holy and prot that need testing right now.

  5. #5

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarcob
    If you have a friend in the beta, I'd suggest using their help to post.
    Unfortunately, none of my friends do have beta key :/

    There's a lot of things that could be fixed regarding holy paladins. For example, given the new spell pushback mechanics (two pushbacks and then you're immune) render spiritual focus a LOT less important. Also concentration aura loses a lot of it's worth. The only good thing about it now is the shorter silence duration, other than that it's mostly useless. IMHO spiritual focus and improved concentration auras should be rolled into one talent, not two separate ones.

    I don't know about Beacon Of Light myself, it sounds O.K. but since I have no access to try it out there's no way I can give any educated opinion about it.

    The judgement talents (enlightened judgements and judgements of the pure) are also quite useless, in my personal opinion; you use them only when dueling or soloing mobs. In raids and/or dungeon instances you rarely stand close to mobs, and definitely try to stay away from any bosses. In arena holy paladins don't have time to use judgements anyway. And so forth..
    - Hand: n., A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody's pocket. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

  6. #6

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    I fear greatly for Holydins in WoTLK. They offer nothing other than a Paladin Blessing (of some kind) that another class can not provide.

    A Holy Paladin should be UBER at providing support utility, and be the BEST single-target healer in the game, bar none. Otherwise.... you will see them reroll Tank or Ret -- or a different class altogether.

  7. #7

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    agree, holy need serious buff, heres some support from shamans

  8. #8

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    Honestly, that's awesome. Uther wasn't a healbot...

  9. #9

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko
    A LOT of the ret paladins in beta were holy paladins who had gotten offspec ret gear and CHOSEN to spec ret in the beta. I mean after all it is RANDOM.
    No. A lot of the ret paladins were paladins that considered themselves ret but spec'd holy as their only way to get gear on raids. They were just pretending to be holy and didn't really care what happened either way as long as ret was buffed. It was hardly a spur of the moment choice - more like a mass exodus waiting to happen. It could have been predicted better with a simple questionnaire regarding what spec you'd like to play most.

  10. #10

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geboran
    I fear greatly for Holydins in WoTLK. They offer nothing other than a Paladin Blessing (of some kind) that another class can not provide.

    A Holy Paladin should be UBER at providing support utility, and be the BEST single-target healer in the game, bar none. Otherwise.... you will see them reroll Tank or Ret -- or a different class altogether.
    Why should this be the case? Just because it USED to be how things worked, doesn't mean it should ultimately continue to be.

    If blizzard gives Holy a new avenue of approach, say making Holy Paladins the ultimate, bar-none, melee-range healer (Being that they're the best equipped healers to potentially survive damage), would you oppose it just to avoid change?

    My only reasoning for not playing Holy is that I didn't roll a Paladin to stand at max range, that's an absurd notion, and I think if blizzard penalizes a Holy Paladin for playing like a priest, it's a good thing.

    More instant heals, taking Holy Shock off the GCD sounds like a good idea, so your instant Holy Light casts from crit aren't pretend, they really feel instant, as you're using 1 GCD, not 2, to cast them. I'd also be in favor of critical Judgements causing the same effect, to synergize it with JotP (More below)

    Next would be JotP, instead of melee/casting haste for Judging, why not beef up the healing effect of JoL the same way Ret's mana effect from JotW is a beefed up JoW. My hope would be to see any holy damage you cause with a Judgement instantly heal all friendly units within 20 yards of the target for 50% of the damage caused.

    Next is Enlightened Judgements, change the name to Enlightened SEALS: Remove Judgement Range effect, Now causes your Seal of Light effect to affect all friendly units within 10 yards (Yes, this would only occur if you swing your weapon) Your Seal of Wisdom effect to restore an additional 50% of the mana gained over 3 seconds, Your Seal of Blood/Martyr damage reduces the mana cost of your next healing spell by 100%, but you pay that price in health instead. Your Holy Vengeance/Blood Corruption effects also trigger damage whenever the target deals melee damage. Finally, any holy damage caused by Seal of Righteousness or Command also heals you for 20% of the damage caused.

    Replace Light's Grace with "Speed of Light(Okay, that's pretty cheesy, something else might be better)", decreasing the cast speed of Holy Light and Flash of Light based on your proximity to the target, where at <5 yards, Flash of Light is instant, and Holy Light is a 1 second cast.

    I like the idea of Beacon of Light marking a specific target, but adjusting it to be more of a group heal would be nice, maybe all healing granted to the Beacon also heals all nearby group members over 6 seconds for 10-20%?

    This combination of talents causes several interesting synergies: You want to be in melee range, and if you can survive standing next to the tank, you're an incredible single target healer.

  11. #11

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    Quote Originally Posted by PalliesThrowStuff
    This combination of talents causes several interesting synergies: You want to be in melee range, and if you can survive standing next to the tank, you're an incredible single target healer.
    Part of me wishes this would work because it would make pallies really unique healers. The other part of me is using this as a reason why ret/prot shouldn't make suggestions for holy. It would be impossible for holy paladins to compare to other healers in the game if we became some kind of melee hybrid healer unless melee/caster mechanics were redone for holy pallies and boss encounters were changed. Also, what about the other aspects of the game? How would this new holy pally function in arena or 5-man? Sure, we might become bar-none the best single target healer in the game but we would also become even worse at aoe healing.

    Besides, we all have our own vision of how a pally should be. Out of all the healing classes I decided to be a holy pally because I wanted strong survivability. I wanted to be able to outlast my opponent, wear plate and be unstoppable. Would retadins be upset if all of a sudden ret became a ranged caster spec? I don't want to sound like I am against change but I am against completely redisgning the class so that the only thing that is familiar are the names of the spells.
    "Please find my dear friends.
    Dead or Alive" -redmakoto

  12. #12

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    Quote Originally Posted by toychristopher
    Part of me wishes this would work because it would make pallies really unique healers. The other part of me is using this as a reason why ret/prot shouldn't make suggestions for holy. It would be impossible for holy paladins to compare to other healers in the game if we became some kind of melee hybrid healer unless melee/caster mechanics were redone for holy pallies and boss encounters were changed. Also, what about the other aspects of the game? How would this new holy pally function in arena or 5-man? Sure, we might become bar-none the best single target healer in the game but we would also become even worse at aoe healing.

    Besides, we all have our own vision of how a pally should be. Out of all the healing classes I decided to be a holy pally because I wanted strong survivability. I wanted to be able to outlast my opponent, wear plate and be unstoppable. Would retadins be upset if all of a sudden ret became a ranged caster spec? I don't want to sound like I am against change but I am against completely redisgning the class so that the only thing that is familiar are the names of the spells.
    I understand your sentiments about changing what a class/spec is, and my only aim with suggesting a redesign of how Holy Paladins heal, is to bring them a combination of viability and a unique role to perform. My intent with using melee as a primary function of Holy Paladins wasn't in any way meant to make them a 'Melee hybrid Healer', any more than a Prot Warrior is a Melee hybrid Tank. Healing is the goal, meleeing is just how you deliver it, the same way a Tank's goal is to ... well... tank, but melee combat is their channel for said tanking.

    As for your thoughts on the talent changes I suggested, Paladins could easily become OP in the arenas, after reviewing, their self-heal capabilities as per my suggestions would be far over the top.

    I think giving a melee channel for Holy, though, would be adding the Paladin flavor back to the spec, and provides blizzard an avenue of escape for the rapidly diminishing balance of healers.

  13. #13

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    As a Holy Paladin of over three years, I'd quit outright if they start trying to significantly meld melee combat into our spec. That mechanic is the reason I canceled my Warhammer pre-order ages ago: no pure healer or support = blah to me.

    I'm not trying to bash, it's a good sentiment trying to provide something unique when they're homogenizing classes so much, but I cannot stand Retribution and this is not Warcraft 3. I'd rather they just fleshed out the spell caster portion of Paladin and dropped the "defensive healer" line, since our defenses completely suck shit compared to every other healing spec when Divine Shield is on cooldown.

  14. #14

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Merin
    As a Holy Paladin of over three years, I'd quit outright if they start trying to significantly meld melee combat into our spec. That mechanic is the reason I canceled my Warhammer pre-order ages ago: no pure healer or support = blah to me.

    I'm not trying to bash, it's a good sentiment trying to provide something unique when they're homogenizing classes so much, but I cannot stand Retribution and this is not Warcraft 3. I'd rather they just fleshed out the spell caster portion of Paladin and dropped the "defensive healer" line, since our defenses completely suck shit compared to every other healing spec when Divine Shield is on cooldown.
    In response, and again, respectfully, but it seems to me that you are wanting Holy Paladins to play like Holy Priests, and that to me seems like an error.

    I'm not saying this is WC3, but the RTS games are where the overwhelming majority of this game gets its direction and flavor, and just saying "New game, ditch all the old stuff" takes a lot of the fun out of it. Why should both Paladins and Priests have the same playstyle and function, when one class has so much potential for the melee combat the name of the class would generally imply? If you want a spell caster/healer there are several other options for that, let's have something else here while we still have some diversity.

  15. #15

    Re: So retadins are determining the future of holies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Merin
    I'd rather they just fleshed out the spell caster portion of Paladin and dropped the "defensive healer" line, since our defenses completely suck shit compared to every other healing spec when Divine Shield is on cooldown.
    I have never really thought of my paladin as a "caster". That is what makes the paladin different is that they are a "defensive healer". That is why we wear plate and hold a shield. To compensate for that we do low damage and that I was always fine with.

    Of course in arenas and pvp we don't feel like we have very many defenses when you see a disc priest ping-ponging PoM back and forth or a druid running everywhere while casting hots.
    "Please find my dear friends.
    Dead or Alive" -redmakoto

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