So what benefits will bears offer in WotLK?

[Koumaru]

in TBC it's mandatory to remove crushing blows, in WotLK it'll be optional, but still a good option.

Familiar with the magic number, just didn't bring it up because of the removal of crushes.

For druids the number was 101.2% miss + dodge (attainable only in goofy "setup" situtations).

I guess more block rating could only be a good thing for you in WotLK. In TBC an overabundance of it could sometimes cause you to burn your Holy Shield charges too fast and then get crushed before the cooldown was up, while stacking dodge and parry would allow you to hit 102.4% with less of a chance of that occuring. Now, that's not really an issue.

But if you end up gearing for 102.4% just for the mitigation boost of blocking every attack that isn't avoided, the above point is still somewhat relevant, just not as critical as it used to be.

Is this the pally forum or the druid forum? ;D

[Maenetus]

In TBC an overabundance of it could sometimes cause you to burn your Holy Shield charges too fast and then get crushed before the cooldown was up, while stacking dodge and parry would allow you to hit 102.4% with less of a chance of that occuring.

that's not too much block rating, that's too little avoidance. Even then it's never really an issue for paladins, fights are tuned for warriors who have half the charges, and provoke more boss parry hasted attacks.


er.. um BEAR BEAR BEAR RAWR

[kiljare]

The following statements are true at level 80 with regards to avoidance:

Parry Rating scales worse than Dodge Rating
Agility scales significantly worse than Dodge Rating for warriors/paladins (not sure about DKs)
Agility and Dodge Rating scale almost identically for druids (Dodge Rating is about 2% more effective but doesn't give crit, which improves threat and even improves EH through ILotP)

With the agility that a druid or warrior has at level 80 while naked, given a full tanking spec for each, the druid actually leads on avoidance by over 1%.

Druids scale equally or -- wait for it -- better (ZOMG) than warriors or paladins for avoidance! Not sure where death knights stand with their high parry values, and that may be adjusted in a tanking pass.

Ok so agi scales with dodge rating...i never even talked about that, it doesn't matter. that just means that the 50 dodge rating a warrior tank piece has will be equal to the 30 agility tank piece we have. But then they will have the +defense as well and therefore will scale better. Having a flat % to dodge will necessarily mean that it doesn't scale. I agree that to start raiding content, bears may very well in fact be ahead...but what about after that? To me its TBC mistakes being made all over again.

@Bullshiftr

I think his posts are well thought out and for the most part informative. However they are NOT entirely accurate which is where i take issue. The only true positive i see in wotlk so far is mother bear and the only reason i see that as a positive is because bears will finally have some magic damage reduction. This is huge for a feral, but at the same time i don't think its something we should be sated with and just say "well we are better off than we were, even if we still aren't equal." I'm not doom and gloom because i believe the devs will get it right in the end, its just at this point and the devs seem to have the same opinion as i do...is that bears are not an equal tank. Currently the plan is to give us a higher stamina pool to make up for the increased damage we will take...that's lame, i don't want to be a harder tank to heal than any other tank.

P.S. I could care less about how the rogue gear will affect my TPS...what half decent bear actually has a problem with tps? Now warriors will be able to pump it out just as well which means a feral really has no niche at all anymore like some of the other tanks and that to me is a problem.

[Koumaru]

that's not too much block rating, that's too little avoidance. Even then it's never really an issue for paladins, fights are tuned for warriors who have half the charges, and provoke more boss parry hasted attacks.

Too much block rating and too little avoidance go hand-in-hand, unless you're gearing way beyond 102.4% and just plain wasting itemization...

I was always curious about that one, though. What is the priority list for dodge/parry/block on the hit table? If you've pushed normal hits off the table and continue to add dodge/block/parry, which of the three is being pushed off the table in deference to the others?

Edit:

er.. um BEAR BEAR BEAR RAWR

Was that supposed to be some kind of insinuation, or just a response to my question about which forum we're on?

[Maenetus]

miss > dodge > parry > block > hit > crush > crit

[Koumaru]

Ok so agi scales with dodge rating...i never even talked about that, it doesn't matter. that just means that the 50 dodge rating a warrior tank piece has will be equal to the 30 agility tank piece we have.

Nah, the numbers are a lot closer than that. Even with SotF and BoK, it's more like 34 AGI for us equals 39 Dodge Rating (for anyone).

But then they will have the +defense as well and therefore will scale better.

As regards avoidance and item budget, Defense Rating scales way slower than Dodge Rating OR druid Agility. Not sure where you're going with that one. Blocking muddies the waters a bit, sure, but that may be addressed when Blizz is actually balancing the tanks side by side (they haven't even gotten to that point yet).

Having a flat % to dodge will necessarily mean that it doesn't scale. I agree that to start raiding content, bears may very well in fact be ahead...but what about after that? To me its TBC mistakes being made all over again.

Unless things change again, we scale with agility almost exactly the same as they scale with Dodge Rating (and even better with BoK), and a bit better than they scale with Defense/Dodge/Parry Ratings combined. What's so bad about that?

Currently the plan is to give us a higher stamina pool to make up for the increased damage we will take...that's lame, i don't want to be a harder tank to heal than any other tank.

That was an offhand remark by Ghostcrawler, and he/she's paid the price in flames for it many times over. It's not, however, the current plan.

Let's allow some time to see how blocking mitigation affects the balance of warriors/paladins versus druids and death knights. Aside from that and talent bloat (which we share with the warriors and paladins), the playing field is already pretty even.

[Maenetus]

As regards avoidance and item budget, Defense Rating scales way slower than Dodge Rating OR druid Agility.

96% as much avoidance as dodge rating for warriors/paladins/DKs

(not counting block)

[Koumaru]

I should really stop using subjective adjectives in my sentences when I'm talking about scaling.

Point I'm trying to make is, our avoidance scales the same or slightly better! Uh oh, "slightly" is one of those subjective adjectives...

It just remains to be seen how shields affect comparative mitigation among the tank specs. Avoidance is fine already in beta.

Edit:
At level 80, 41.0 defense rating is the same avoidance as 39.3 dodge rating, or ~96% difference as Maenetus indicated. Add the 1% block in there and it looks pretty nice. It's really close to the comparison for druids of agility to dodge (crit gain instead of block rating). Hmm...coincidence?

[kiljare]

I meant to say 50 = 50, but working at the same time and got distracted on that. My contention is that we do not in fact scale equally with agility as they do with dodge/parry/def. This is the backbone of the argument and to be honest until we actually see the values being assigned to other tanks and the amount of agility being put on our gear its tough to say one way or the other. I believe it will be completely lopsided against the feral for the sheer fact that we are wearing rogue leather and putting enough agi to make the gear equal would overpower the gear for a rogue. I am optimistic the devs will address the issue in some way, be it on our tier gear or adding a hardcoded change to the druid class. I can assure you currently that druids do not scale as well. You need only read the blue posts and see where they are giving druids more stam to compensate to draw this obvious conclusion. GC was being honest about the plans for ferals and got flamed and then later posted and said if it was a problem for healers they would address it...currently its still the plan. Blessing of kings will still be a mandatory buff for a druid which would bring the numbers close to the 34 = 39 so yes we will do slightly better. That's a big difference from what we are now where ferals get almost twice the amount of dodge per point of agi than any other class.

[Koumaru]

I meant to say 50 = 50, but working at the same time and got distracted on that. My contention is that we do not in fact scale equally with agility as they do with dodge/parry/def.

So you're making this point based on incomplete itemization info?

This is a rough comparison, but if the sum total of [0.96 * Defense Rating + 1.03 * Dodge Rating + 0.82 * Parry Rating] on a plate set is greater than [1.06 * AGI + 1.03 * Dodge Rating] on our gear, after optimal socketing, then you might be right. That remains to be seen.

GC was being honest about the plans for ferals and got flamed and then later posted and said if it was a problem for healers they would address it...currently its still the plan.

I was under the impression Mother Bear was the new plan. They did address it. If we're still intended to receive a huge health advantage now that our mitigation and avoidance starts and scales competitively, we'll be freakin' overpowered.

[Maenetus]

putting enough agi to make the gear equal would overpower the gear for a rogue.

so tune the rogues.

it's not bears in rogue gear it's bears, cats and rogues in Physical leather.